Ethnic Masses?

[Meggie]

Ummm…

In my town the Polish church used to have masses in polish all the time. All the statiosn are in polish as well as the beginning greetings of all masses.

Long ago the Italian church had Mass in Italian, the German church in German, the Irish church…well whatever language Irish people speak. Its not a new concept, but rater a very old one

 

[Catholic_Eagle]

There are still ethnic parishes. In my neighborhood there are three Polish ROman Catholic parishes and one Ukrainian parish. Whenever I go to a Ukrainian Catholic parish,my parents ask me why I have abandoned the Polish people! Why have I left the “Polski Kosciol”[Polish church] and deserted my people and gone to those foreign[that’s a nice word, I don’t want to tell you what my father says about Ukies]Ukrainians. I hate this!!! But thank God that I know that St.Paul rejected this kind of nationalistic-- a church only for our peoples-- mentality.

 

[asquared]

another emerging problems is parishes who introduce a Spanish Mass trying to meet needs of growing Hispanic population, however new Spanish lectionary is still not available, and missallettes and other aides are either from Mexico, or Spain, or written in English then translated, and become unintelligible for Spanish-speaking people from Puerto Rico, South America, Philippines etc. prayers, hymns, Mass propers are entirely different in those places. Most seminarians are being taught Spanish now so they will be able to serve the needs of the future church, but it is usually Mexican Spanish, still, better than nothing, I guess.

The old ethnic parishes in the rust belt often rebelled against their German or Irish priests, and sent over to the old country for priests who could preach and teach in their own languages, and sisters who could staff parochial schools to teach their children.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Meggie:

Ummm…
Long ago the Italian church had Mass in Italian, the German church in German, the Irish church…well whatever language Irish people speak. Its not a new concept, but rater a very old one

Meggie,

Actually, no. Long ago, the Masses in all of those churches were in Latin. (Gaelic is the language of the Irish)

btw, Niagara U. is a beautiful campus; I presume that Nowhere, NY represents one of the lovely small cities and towns nearby - places like Sanborn, Lockport, Albion, Medina - a lovely area.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Meggie]

hehe nowhere NY is the small town that was left abondned after Griffis AFB left.

From what I have heard Mass was said in native language for the immigrants at one time…I do not know for sure at what time period…but I was told that Mass “used to” be said in Polish/Italian/German ect…all the time. The children of immagrants, old people in the parishes, remember it

 

[Mike_C]

No, the Mass was said in Latin until 1964

 

[Mike_C]

Dear Maggie:

“Long ago the Italian church had Mass in Italian, the German church in German, the Irish church…well whatever language Irish people speak. Its not a new concept, but rater a very old one.”

You must be thinking of the 1970’s.

Up until 1964 Masses were said in Latin; a language everyone could understand (at lease some people). Yes, the Stations of the Cross were in the native language, the sermon was given in the native language and the hymns were sung in the native language.

 

[deogratias]

If memory serves me (and at age 71 sometimes it does not ) parts of the Mass continued to be in Latin after 1964 and the Kyrie in Greek of course.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

While it’s true that there used to be ethnic parishes, it’s obvious from the many reminiscent posts on the subject that they were strongly divisive factors within the Church. It was even sometimes scandalous to marry a Catholic of a different nationality. This was the pre-Vatican II version of a “mixed marriage.”

Another thing to note is that the ethnic parishes actually used to be the vehicle of integration for immigrants because the children could learn English in the friendly environment of an ethnic school. With the current lack of support for Catholic schools among many of the faithful, as well as the fact that these schools are no longer ethnic, this function of the ethnic parish has been lost. A Mass held in a different language cannot replace that. It probably only reinforces any ghettoization of the ethnic community.

 

[deogratias]

You must be thinking of the 1970’s.

Well I don’t think Italian and German were used but even when Latin was the norm for Masses, a few dioceses of the southern Slavs which are of the Roman rite and not the Eastern rite, celebrated Mas in the old Slavonic language.

Otherwise Latin prevailed as teh liturgical language of the Church. At one time of course, Latin was the universal language and even when new languages arose from the old, the church retained the use of Latin and it remains the official language of the Roman Church if not the liturgical language. The Eastern rites had, I believe, 12 languages for their rites - Latin,

Greek, Syriac, Chaldaic, Arabic, ethopian, Slavonic, Ruthenian, Bulgarian, Armenian, Coptic and Roumanian - there may be more now.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

deogratias:

Well I don’t think Italian and German were used but even when Latin was the norm for Masses, a few dioceses of the southern Slavs which are of the Roman rite and not the Eastern rite, celebrated Mas in the old Slavonic language.

DeoGratias,

You are correct. Mass for Croat and Slovak Catholics of the Latin Rite was served in the Glagolithic tongue of their region when all the rest of Western Catholicism served it in Latin, relying on the Indult granted to Saint Methodius by Pope John VIII,

It is right that we praise the Slavic Language,which re-echoes the praise due to God.We ordain that the proclamations and works of our Lord Jesus Christ should be said in that language. Nothing in true faith, or doctrine forbids us to sing the mass in the Slavic Language, or to read the Gospel lessons in it, or to chant in it the divine hours.

The service of the Glagolithic Mass was permitted anywhere that the community was Croat or Slovak, not limited strictly to their dioceses. Although the Glagolithic Mass is today principally heard in its beautiful symphonic rendition by Janacek, it is served on special occasions still in the Croat and Slovak national parishes that exist in the US, most under the pastoral care of Franciscans of the Croat and Slovak Custodies.

The only other exception to use of Latin pre-1964 of which I am aware was at the Chuch of Santa Maria del Graffeo in Messina, Italy, where the Mass for those of the Latin Rite was served in Greek. I don’t remember the particular circumstances that allowed this.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Bobby_Jim]

Jesus became man, suffered, died and rose for the salvation of everyone, regardless of whether or not they speak the predominant language of the country they’re living in. And the Church has the mission of spreading the Gospel to everyone, everywhere, not just the native speakers. If that is better served by having Masses in multiple languages, then by all means let it happen.

Like many others I’m sure, I’ve had the opportunity to live abroad for a while. In my case, I was in France, and went to churches where French was spoken. My ability to understand spoken French was sufficient to understand what the prayers and the readings were, but that was mostly by catching a few words here and there, and figuring out what the corresponding English prayers/readings were. When it came to the homily, I was totally lost. After a few months of my “exile”, I returned home, and I found it a great joy and comfort to once again hear the Mass in “real time” without mentally translating into English, and to be able to understand the homily, and not to be embarassed at my horrendous accent when exchanging the sign of peace.

So with that experience in mind, I think of what it must be like for folks who, for whatever reason, are in a foreign country for many years, and what a great comfort it must be to hear the Mass in their own language, and to have a homily they can understand well enough to help them in their spiritual lives.

Going back to all Latin will not totally solve this - people will pick up enough to understand the prayers, probably not the readings, and the homily will still be delivered in some vernacular. I don’t like the idea of large segments of a given parish never fully understanding the homily. That sounds more divisive to me than having multiple communities with different languages.

By the way, the multiple language thing in many parishes is often a result of shifting neighborhood demographics. 80 years ago, a neighborhood may have had primarily Polish speakers. We still have some recent immigrants from Poland, as well as some of the old-timers and 2nd generation Americans who speak fluent Polish. But now we also have the 3rd or 4th generation Americans who no longer speak Polish. Many of the Polish have moved elsewhere, and there is a large influx of 1st generation Hispanic immigrants. Hence a parish that used to serve only Polish speakers now serves Polish, English, and Spanish speakers.

 

[mercygate]

deogratias:

In my diocese we have English, Spanish, Polish, Italian, Fillipino, Mayan and Tonkan and African American

African American? You’re kidding, I hope. African Americans I know would be insulted by that.

In the spirit of unity, where a parish has more than two language groups, one would think that Latin would make more sense than anything else, since it IS still the official language of the Mass worldwide. It would provide equal-opportunity comprehensibility (or incomprehensibility for the truculent) and help unite the communities.

 

[robertaf]

Hi

Well, if I remember my pre-Vatican II days, and I do, going back to Latin would do one thing. Almost no one would understand the Mass without the book.
That is why the missal was written in latin and english (or whichever vernacular). My husband went all through Catholic school and it was manditory he study latin, he understood some of it but not all. And, yes, he was a good student and in fact is Italian who grew up in an all Italian neighborhood.

I experienced the old tradition of marrying outside of the Italian Catholic tradition. I am pure Irish. Until the day she died, my mother in law could not accept an Irish wife for her son. Believe me, it was well tied up in her religious teaching of that day. She would be 100 yrs old this year if the time is any help to you.

I think my original question had to do with division in the Parish because of ethnic Masses. Seems we are divided in our opinions.

 

[deogratias]

African American? You’re kidding, I hope. African Americans I know would be insulted by that.

Just the messenger - that’s what the Diocese web site says.

 

[deogratias]

I experienced the old tradition of marrying outside of the Italian Catholic tradition. I am pure Irish. Until the day she died, my mother in law could not accept an Irish wife for her son. Believe me, it was well tied up in her religious teaching of that day. She would be 100 yrs old this year if the time is any help to you.

I grew up in Pgh. Pa in a predominantly Italian neighborhood - it was a long time before I realized I was not Italian… By the time I was a teenager, my girlfriend and I realized an inexpensive source for Saturday night entertainment was to go to the Sons of Italy Hall where there was almost always a big wedding reception going on and no one asked to see your invitation. There was always good food and music and alcoholic refreshments, and dancing.

Occasionally there would be an Irish-Italian Wedding and those were the most exciting. The Irish would be doing the Irish Jig while the Italians were dancing the Tarentella. Usually you could see the Italians sitting on one side of the hall and the Irish on the other. Usually before the night ended it would end up some degree of a Donnybrook between the two ethnic groups.

The Masses were in Latin, not Italian but there was a strong Italian influence. My memories are of the widows ever wearing black dress, stockings and shoes - eternal mourning. Lot’s of mantillas and veils, rosaries and candles. But I also remember a lot of little superstitions which were Italian and not Catholic. I live in the SW now and I see this with the Mexicans too, a lot of little superstitions which are not really Catholic.

This I find interesting because the Church explicitly forbids superstition - yet it prevails in many cultures.

 

[Catholic_Eagle]

Irish Melkite:

DeoGratias,

You are correct. Mass for Croat and Slovak Catholics of the Latin Rite was served in the Glagolithic tongue of their region when all the rest of Western Catholicism served it in Latin, relying on the Indult granted to Saint Methodius by Pope John VIII,

The service of the Glagolithic Mass was permitted anywhere that the community was Croat or Slovak, not limited strictly to their dioceses. Although the Glagolithic Mass is today principally heard in its beautiful symphonic rendition by Janacek, it is served on special occasions still in the Croat and Slovak national parishes that exist in the US, most under the pastoral care of Franciscans of the Croat and Slovak Custodies.

The only other exception to use of Latin pre-1964 of which I am aware was at the Chuch of Santa Maria del Graffeo in Messina, Italy, where the Mass for those of the Latin Rite was served in Greek. I don’t remember the particular circumstances that allowed this.

Many years,

Neil

IrishMelkite:
The Croatians and SLovenians did the Mass in Slavonic using the Glagothic alphabet in the writing of the Missal. I have never heard of anyone refer to Glagothic as a language before. Sorry if this osunds stiff.

 

[deogratias]

I have never heard of anyone refer to Glagothic as a language before

And of course if YOU have not heard of it, then it didn’t happen

 

[dhgray]

James0235:

Why not just use Latin? It is the language of the (western) Church.
James

If the Masses went back to Latin people would leave in droves (again).

 

[deogratias]

If the Masses went back to Latin people would leave in droves (again

When did people leave in droves?

And if they did, what evidence to you have that it had anything to do with Latin?

I think more people left the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II because they could not practice birth control or if they divorced, annulment was not so easily obtained and they could not remarry or some other sin that prevented them from receiving the sacraments then. Now they just continue to sin and receive communion anyway.