Ethnic Parishes: Necessary or Divisive?

[ConstantineTG]

But even in such pre-Vatican II Polish communities, English-speaking Catholics would not feel excluded in such communities. Today this is not too likely in an all-Polish (Mass, sermon, outside conversations) community, whether it’s in Poland or the U.S. The all-vernacular definitely excludes those those who aren’t familiar with that vernacular. In fact, many see that as mean-spirited; I’ve heard Americans who travel abroad are disgusted when they can’t find an English Mass or anyone who doesn’t speak English, for that matter. My own nephew, for example.

And the Latin excludes those who aren’t familiar with it. There’s really no way around it. When the Church was established people spoke a common language (Greek) and in an area people would be speaking one language.

But please, stop with this American superiority. Not everyone will have English in their own lands, whether its a Mass or a restaurant. I’ve been to Shanghai just before the boom there. Hardly anyone spoke a word of English. Should I complain? You force foreigners to learn English to come to live and work in America, why should they who are in their own lands have to adopt to you?

 

[ConstantineTG]

That’s why they smile when they see a McDonald’s logo.

Going back to my story above, even the crew at the McDonald’s in Shanghai didn’t speak a word of English. I had to point to picture menu to order a quarter pounder.

 

[Phemie]

That’s why they smile when they see a McDonald’s logo.

In fact that very couple complained they didn’t eat in Singapore until they found a McDonald and they left early because there was nothing to do but sit in the hotel. Wish I’d won that trip instead.

 

[ConstantineTG]

In fact that very couple complained they didn’t eat in Singapore until they found a McDonald and they left early because there was nothing to do but sit in the hotel. Wish I’d won that trip instead.

Singapore was a British Colony, people there speak english well, although they developed their own flavor of English called “Singlish”, its not as if someone who speaks British or American English cannot understand it or be understood. They just like to end their sentences with “lah” more than Canadians end their sentences with “eh”.

Too bad they missed out on the Chicken Rice and Chili Crab. But Singapore is the best place to go in South East Asia for an English speaking tourist and not have a language barrier, I can’t understand how these people you know had this problem.

 

[Bluegoat]

I think there is really good reason to have people go to the parish closest to where they live in most cases.

Ethnic parishes might be the result of that in an ethnic community.

I think if there is a community that could really benefit from a Mass in another language, that is fine, and that might draw people from further, but parishes shouldn’t be set up as ethnic. A parish that historically is fine, but really the focus should be on serving the people who happen to be attending and the local community.

To my mind, a parish that caters to a specific language group is no different than one parish in a diocese that has a signed mass for the deaf.

 

[Cat]

What the Italians sing or the masses? Gregorian, traditional Italian hymns in there is such, new hymns in Italian?

The Hungarians since the 1930’s when the Hungarian Church built in the Chicago area sing the same Hungarian hymns. These hymns made and make the mass Hungarian. The form is secondary.

The Masses and the music are in English. They don’t do Gregorian chant because the church is pastored by the Conventual Franciscan friars, and Gregorian chant is not done in that community.

On special occasions, Mass is offered in Italian. When this is done, the parish hires professional musicians who perform Italian sacred music in Italian. (not me) A respectable number of the parishioners speak Italian, but none of them (except for one woman) is a professional musician.

They sing the English hymns, both traditional and contemporary, quite well! I’ve only been in a few Catholic churches where the singing is actually enthusiastic, and this parish is one of them. And they clap for music that they like–sorry to all of you who don’t approve of clapping. I think it’s an Italian thing, something about talking with their hands. At least, that’s what the pastor told me!

They are an exuberant congregation, with lots of hugging, kissing, and talking before and after Mass. Yet I would never, ever accuse them of irreverence or a lack of devotion to Jesus. The Holy Name Society is very active in that church, as is the Altar and Rosary Society. There are flowers everywhere, and the church is stunning at Christmas and Easter. Many of the families in that church have been members for a hundred years, and several generations of the same family all attend together and take up several pews. And they give money–oh, are they generous! When the roof and some of the structures required repairs, the people in that small ethnic parish gave all the money within a few weeks, around ninety thousand dollars! And their St. Joseph’s Altar is amazing, and draws large crowds from the neighborhood (which is very poor, BTW).

I think that one reason why ethnic parishes formed is that at one time, certain white nationalities were not welcome in the U.S. among other white nationalities. It’s interesting how certain nationalities keep coming up in this thread: Polish, Italian, and Irish. ALL of these nationalities were (and still are) denigrated by other nationalities. There was (and still is) a lot of prejudice. And so in order to find friends, make business contacts, and just feel comfortable, certain nationalities formed parishes where they could continue their ethnic traditions and language without getting made fun of or looked down on.

Now so many of the people in these parishes have married others outside of the nationality, so IMO, many of the ethnic parishes are “integrated.”

 

[Phemie]

Singapore was a British Colony, people there speak english well, although they developed their own flavor of English called “Singlish”, its not as if someone who speaks British or American English cannot understand it or be understood. They just like to end their sentences with “lah” more than Canadians end their sentences with “eh”.

Too bad they missed out on the Chicken Rice and Chili Crab. But Singapore is the best place to go in South East Asia for an English speaking tourist and not have a language barrier, I can’t understand how these people you know had this problem.

Come on, anyone who can complain that there were too many Indians at the New Delhi airport will find fault with anything that isn’t Yonge & Bloor, Toronto.

 

[ProVobis]

They just like to end their sentences with “lah” more than Canadians end their sentences with “eh”.

That explains some of their computer code that I couldn’t get to work.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That explains some of their computer code that I couldn’t get to work.

Too many conditional statements that use “can” and “cannot”?

 

[A.Pelliccio]

When I lived in Bayonne, NJ I attended the EF at Holy Rosary in Jersey City which is, “the first Italian Parish in NJ”. The EF seemed to transcend ethnic divisions as the parishioners were white, black, Indian, Asia, Filipino, Hispanic, etc. On the same block, and the sanctuaries almost touch, is a Church dedicated to St. Anthony and it is an ethnically Polish church.

These ethnic parishes may have been necessary years ago, but now are divisive. I say this as Latin Rite Catholics divide themselves by language: Spanish, English, Latin, Italian, Polish , Filipino Mass or by age with some false Charismatic movement. Several of these ethnic parishes are no longer self sustaining, and in the case of those two in Jersey city, it is unlikely that with demographic changes of the neighborhoods that both parishes can survive independent of each other forever.

In Bayonne, there is an Italian Parish dedicated to the Assumption and the Italian community was very upset that a second or third generation Italian was made pastor because his Italian was poor. There is no longer an influx of European, especially Italian, immigrants coming to our shores and but nature of traditional American assimilation its difficult to maintain one distinct old world culture. Via my grandparents I am of Italian, Polish, Irish, and Spanish extraction. I speak neither of languages and feel a disconnected from the traditions of my ancestors. It would be difficult to “divide loyalties” among ethnic lines if Ethnic Parishes existed in greater numbers.

However, new Spanish speaking immigrants seem less eager to assimilate as a weakened American culture does not demand it. Tensions exist in parishes, Assumption and others, where an old world entrenched and aging establishment wishes to maintain prominence over a growing and youthful group.

My fraternal grandparents, Italian and Spanish, attended a formerly slovak parish , St. Joseph, in Bayonne which recently became use for our Syriac Brothers and they were forced to find another parish home. They and the Italians in Assumption have petitioned the AB of Newark for their concerns, and good and faithful Catholics feel slighted as a changing demographics force parish mergers.

Catholics such as they feel disenfranchised in their Parishes from new comers. It is difficult to maintain the universal nature of the Church when her children view each other with suspicion because of where our grand or great grandparents got on a boat.

I do not know the answer or solutions, but there are but a few observations.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Ethnic parishes are necessary. Why subject these people with rich cultural celebrations of Roman Catholicism to the bland practices of North America?

 

[hazcompat]

Ethnic parishes are joy. They are beautiful examples of our unity in diversity. Nurturing them in a technocratic world is going to be a challenge.

peace

 

[chevalier]

Well, since the Church is not a function of the state, a national clergy can’t really tell minorities and immigrants to assimilate (as much as I believe the state has every right to push people to learn the language of the country they’re coming to live in, at least within some non-abusive limits taking into account individual linguistic ability). In certain formerly Polish territories grabbed by the surrounding powers, German bishops were telling German priests to learn Polish because that was the language the parishioners spoke. In fact, this occurred even during WW2.

I don’t think it would be a good idea to overdo on brought-in national identies to the point people would come to the country and refuse to learn the language and talk to their neighbours, ignoring whatever pertains to the new society they’ve “joined”. On the other hand, forced assimilation is bad, national identity is a human right, one’s got to find some balance. IMHO it isn’t the Church’s place to force integration anyway.

Sorry, not feeling a particularly strong flow of logical thought today.

Off topic: I remember a Franciscan priest in Rhodes, who switched among five languages during mass (Latin, English, French, Modern Greek and I think Italian was also there). He was from the Custody of the Holy Land. Oh, and he was black. Say hi to universal Church.

 

[ProVobis]

They are beautiful examples of our unity in diversity.

Good line but please explain how separate vernaculars are unifying.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Good line but please explain how separate vernaculars are unifying.

We are unified in faith, not in language.

 

[chevalier]

It’s not like back in the Latin liturgy time people would have been able to understand (or even deliver—in case of priests) a sermon in Latin. Sure, more so than today, but still few of the few. So they new rubrics. Rubrics can be learnt just as easily in pretty much any European language as in Latin.

As far as the sermon goes, it has be in the language the audience will understand, so talking in Shakespeare’s tongue (rather than that of Cervantes) to a church full of Mexicans doesn’t make sense from the point of view of what’s the most important: delivering the message.

 

[ProVobis]

IMHO it isn’t the Church’s place to force integration anyway.

Off topic: I remember a Franciscan priest in Rhodes, who switched among five languages during mass (Latin, English, French, Modern Greek and I think Italian was also there). He was from the Custody of the Holy Land. Oh, and he was black. Say hi to universal Church.

You’re right. Integration shouldn’t be forced.

I also heard stories that in the war, soldiers from both sides would drop their weapons and attend the same Mass right in the middle of the battlefields. They knew the importance of the Mass and I don’t think the ethnic language would have worked too well there.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You’re right. Integration shouldn’t be forced.

I also heard stories that in the war, soldiers from both sides would drop their weapons and attend the same Mass right in the middle of the battlefields. They knew the importance of the Mass and I don’t think the ethnic language would have worked too well there.

So I guess you’re at an advantage if you’re the type who leaves Mass early immediately after receiving Communion because you can start shooting the other guys first.

So where does the priest come from? Does he parachute into the battlefield with a mobile altar?

 

[Cojuanco]

So I guess you’re at an advantage if you’re the type who leaves Mass early immediately after receiving Communion because you can start shooting the other guys first.

So where does the priest come from? Does he parachute into the battlefield with a mobile altar?

Usually it’s either from one of the chaplaincies (IIRC international law precludes you from shooting at the chaplain. As for the altar, there are lots of pictures in WWII of priests using the fronts of trucks and jeeps as temporary altars.

As for the ethnic parish, most of it just stems from the fact that immigrants like to be around people that understand their culture. It isn’t just the vernacular, as my example shows. I’ve been to an EF Mass - about 80% of the attendees were Filipino, as was the priest. Another EF in another parish was almost entirely Italian - I think I was the only one there who wasn’t white. Now these aren’t particularly ethnic parishes (the latter used to be, but hasn’t been since the 1960s). But mutual aid societies, apostolates etc. often need to be what the academics call culturally competent - and that’s what ethnic parishes, de jure or de facto, provide - after all, an elderly Filipino grandmother would be more comfortable in a rosary sodality where most people speak Filipino as opposed to Hungarian. Then there’s the fact that if you don’t speak English, Confession might be a little hard if the priest doesn’t speak your language.

 

[odile53]

Frequently, during WW II, as Allied troops liberated a village, the Catholics among them would attend Mass in the village church: Dad told me of this years ago. Since everyone had been raised on the Latin Mass, there was no problem understanding at least the responses of the ordinary of the Mass. You were on your own, though, with the readings and the homily. And yes, chaplains frequently celebrated Mass using the hood of a Jeep or a truck as the base of a temporary altar. They had a chaplain’s communion kit as part of their field pack. I don’t know this for a fact, and Dad has been gone to his reward for seven years now, but some of those chaplains may have parachuted in with Airborne troops.

A few weeks ago on EWTN there was a show about US military chaplains. I wish I could recall the name of one of them, he was a Navy chaplain in the Pacific fleet who aided his shipmates in escaping a sinking ship, at the cost of his own life. I believe he was awarded the Medal of Honor (posthumously) for valor under fire, and a ship was subsequently named for him. There were several other Catholic chaplains who were decorated for bravery as well. If you get a chance, and the show comes on again, it would be worth watching. I can’t recall the name of the special, because I was interrupted several times while watching it.