Eucharist and contraception

[QwertyGirl]

know right? All these arguments just over definitions. That’s why it’s always simpler to have the same definition. But I know that is often difficult because of the underlying agenda. That’s why people like to change definitions of words eg “marriage”.

In some years time I can see a Catholic trying to suggest marriage definition is between two people and that the church is inaccurate.

And the oher piece to all of this is translation between languages. Some languages don’t have specific words that mean the same thing in other languages. Since the Church is world-wide, it presents challenges, especially when providing information in the written word.

 

[LittleFlower]

Guys contracept everyday they don’t have sex by not having sex, is what your saying.

That is not what I am saying.

If a couple chooses not to have unitive sex together, during a woman’s fertile days they are contracepting.

 

[LittleFlower]

I am now also muting this thread.

 

[klmt123]

A guy is able to get a different woman pregnant every day of the month for life. Women can only get pregnant by 1 man every 9 months until her 40’s.

 

[Tatum]

Tatum:

Is NFP contraceptive then?

Yes it is.

I guess, I might have just a wider definition of what is contraceptive. One that a lot of people might take issue with.

And that would include Catholic moral theologians and the Magisterium I suggest.
It means you do not understand the nature of Catholic Ethical arguments/philosophy and how it builds on “the medics” of the situation.

I find that medical Catholic professionals are almost always the same on this point of terminology.

1. NFP is not a form of contraception in Church moral teaching.
   (eg Is NFP Catholic contraception?)
2. Abortion, in Church moral teaching, is any chosen destruction of the product of human conception, whether before or after implantation in the womb.”
3. If the Pill is chosen to do just this then its an aobrtafacient use according to Church teaching.

And in accord with the same sort of Church thinking/philosophy after consecration the Eucharist is no longer rightly called bread. Or do you also go along with the scientists and say it still remains bread as well.

We must understand the Church uses language differently from what your profession leads you to believe. It is scary that you and Pup7 haven’t realised this yet.

 

[LittleFlower]

One last post because I can’t help myself:

In the fertile days of a woman’s cycle, if there are serious reasons to avoid pregnancy, the couple respectfully steps back from the act of intercourse.

As with anything good, NFP can be misused, if a couple has the wrong motives. Married couples are called by God to cooperate generously in bringing forth and educating new life. For a couple to decide that “we don’t want children at this time”, there need to be serious, objective reasons (health, finances, etc.). If the reasons are not objective but selfish, then the couple cannot justify the avoidance of pregnancy just because they are using NFP to do it. In this case they are not practicing “family planning”, but “family avoidance”!

If a couple does not have any serious reasons to abstain or avoid pregnancy, then they are using NFP as a form of contraception. End point. Finito.

Birth Control and NFP: What's the Difference?

By Frank Pavone, National Director of Priests for Life

www.catholicnewsagency.com

 

[Tatum]

The pill blocks pregnancy, Otherwise what you’re saying is if it wasn’t an abortifacient, it would be okay to use…which is why it’s considered immoral, by both stopping ovulation and by potentially inhibiting implantation.

There are difficulties in these propositions which stem from the medicalist approach.
So lets deconstruct a little…

The pill blocks pregnancy

So, given your prior definition of “pregnant” (as implantation of the zygote) do you mean the pill stop’s implantation?

I suggest your language is very inaccurate here…
I believe the Pill also stops fertilisation by inhibiting release of eggs from the ovaries surely?
Therefore the immorality of use of the Pill in married life lies primarily in choosing to stop fertilisation. If the Pill is being taken regularly it seems there is minimal risk of abortifacient effects.

which is why it’s considered immoral, by both stopping ovulation and by potentially inhibiting implantation.

Yes I agree it does both. But with a married couple the primary immorality in practise is the stopping of ovulation.

But we are talking about victims of rape and the types of medicinal remedies that may be legitimately applied. If the Pill is given it seems the primary effect desired is the inhibition of implantation? That is immoral. But it is not immoral in this situation to stop the sperm fertilising the egg. It is also acceptable (unlike in marriage) to stop the eggs releasing from the ovaries - but the Pill is unlikely a realistic aid in this scenario? If it were useful it would be allowed if there was little risk of implantation being inhibited.

Otherwise what you’re saying is if it wasn’t an abortifacient, it would be okay to use.

Yes that is pretty much what I am saying. Though even some risk would be acceptable.

But it blocks pregnancy via artificial means… and is actually why it’s immoral.

No. You are quite mistaken. Your moral principles are in error here.
It is quite moral to use artificial means to prevent fertilisation of the ovum in the case of rape.
It is not allowed for married couples.

The basic principles is not the use of artifice at all. Your excessively physical/medical approach to Catholic ethics is the cause of your erroneous conclusions.
And this failure of approach was indicated to me by unthinking giving in to the definition’s of the medical profession. You do not yet understand Catholic teaching in this area at all. it is more than just a matter of definition’s. That is but an indicator.

 

[klmt123]

Keyword “IF”

 

[LittleFlower]

Key phrase: Consult your priest.

I would think, just knowing humanity, that many would be practicing NFP in a contraceptive manner without knowing it. The emphasis is on serious issues to abstain. It’s not about one high bill, or a minor health issue. It’s about things like heavy debt or complete inability to provide for another child and serious health issues like cancer.

Many would be using it as an excuse to prolong time between children or cease increasing their family size, without there being serious issues.

They would be using NFP as contraception.

Mic drop!

 

[klmt123]

Almost everyone has serious reasons to abstain.

 

[LittleFlower]

Almost everyone has serious reasons to abstain.

 

[Tatum]

So you accept that when couples practice NFP for a grave reason (which everybody assumes when speaking of legitimate NFP) then it is not actually contraception at all so far as the Church is concerned.

Which is what we have all been saying obviously enough but which you keep disagreeing with for some reason.

 

[klmt123]

We are all called to be chaste. Abstaining is part of practicing chastity.

 

[LittleFlower]

I do not believe that many couples satisfy the grave reasons bit at all.

It’s a complete cop out. Everyone totes does it but the majority of people use it to avoid, without grave reasons, a full union of man and wife.


Chaste does not mean to abstain from having sex when you can conceive @klmt123

 

[Tatum]

Not really interested in judgement of actual couples myself, that’s beyond my pay grade.

What concerns me is that you in principle call all NFP a form of contraception and so materially deny Church statements on the matter which only confuses issues and is a sign you may not understand the moral principles involved.

 

[LittleFlower]

What concerns me is that you in principle call all NFP a form of contraception and so materially deny Church statements on the matter which only confuses issues and is a sign you may not understand the moral principles involved.

I understand the moral principles involved, and have provided multiple links to credible sources. I do not believe that the majority of NFP practitioners have grave reasons, thus making the majority of NFP contraceptive.

That’s IMHO. I am not denying anything.

 

[thistle]

But deny a rape victim Plan B? No. Never.

Plan B is forbidden by the Church no matter the circumstances.

Extract from Dignitas Personae:

1. Alongside methods of preventing pregnancy which are, properly speaking, contraceptive, that is, which prevent conception following from a sexual act, there are other technical means which act after fertilization, when the embryo is already constituted, either before or after implantation in the uterine wall. Such methods are interceptive if they interfere with the embryo before implantation and contragestative if they cause the elimination of the embryo once implanted.

In order to promote wider use of interceptive methods,[43] it is sometimes stated that the way in which they function is not sufficiently understood. It is true that there is not always complete knowledge of the way that different pharmaceuticals operate, but scientific studies indicate that the effect of inhibiting implantation is certainly present, even if this does not mean that such interceptives cause an abortion every time they are used, also because conception does not occur after every act of sexual intercourse. It must be noted, however, that anyone who seeks to prevent the implantation of an embryo which may possibly have been conceived and who therefore either requests or prescribes such a pharmaceutical, generally intends abortion.

When there is a delay in menstruation, a contragestative is used,[44] usually one or two weeks after the non-occurrence of the monthly period. The stated aim is to re-establish menstruation, but what takes place in reality is the abortion of an embryo which has just implanted.

As is known, abortion is “the deliberate and direct killing, by whatever means it is carried out, of a human being in the initial phase of his or her existence, extending from conception to birth”.[45] Therefore, the use of means of interception and contragestation fall within the sin of abortion and are gravely immoral. Furthermore, when there is certainty that an abortion has resulted, there are serious penalties in canon law.

 

[ratio1]

For those who want a quick analogy summary of the debate recently on this thread whether the pill is abortive:
It went something like this

A. I call my priest Father
B. He’s not your father! Father means he is your parent.
A. The church tells us to call priests father
B. That’s not the definition of father! Father according to science means the person who provided the sperm. Hence you calling a priest father is inaccurate!
A. You’re not following church teaching!
B. The church doesn’t tell us priests are our biological fathers!
A. The church says to call priest Father
B. Father means biological parent! I’m not making this up. I learnt this in high school! The definition is science! No kidding! Check the dictionary and Wikipedia!
Etc
As you can see both are correct in their own way. But they are just talking about different definitions of the same word.

I think what B is worried that people may think calling a priest Father may mislead people who doesn’t understand the more common definition of father. I sympathise with this. So as long as A when using a term specially defined by the church say so or make sure the listener understands this then there is nothing wrong with calling a priest Father. If the listener knows what A means by his use of the term Father then there is really no need to insist he cannot call a priest Father.

 

[ratio1]

You are also getting impatient?

 

[Pup7]

Deleted because I realized it was just beating the dead horse this topic has become, and that I’m unconcerned what someone thinks of me for thinking Plan B (which I was told by multiple clergy, for the record) is perfectly fine to administer to a rape victim.

That is between me and God, and no one else. But I’d love to hear opinions on it when it’s someone’s family member who was raped, who was violently raped and forced to have sexual intercourse against her will.

Good day.