Eucharist and contraception

[thistle]

What if the rape occurs at night, and the victim makes it to the emergency room before daybreak. Is it okay then?

I realize that question is ridiculous. Every bit as ridiculous as you arguing over this. You are wrong.

There are no exceptions. You are wrong and the Church is correct.

 

[Tatum]

Great, so you accept that there may be test procedures that can be useful immediately after rape to detect whether fertilisation has occurred
For example are you aware of this test protocol…

Well it is actually. Its part of a well known Catholic Hospital protocol used to determine if ovulation, but not implantation, is likely in play before deciding if PlanB may be given.
It seems that if ovulation is in play PlanB may NOT be morally used.

I invite you to research the matter (the Peioira protocol) and advise me if I am mistaken in my understanding by quoting respected Catholic sources (as opposed to your own authority).

The point I am making is that PlanB has never been given open slather by the Vatican as you seem to believe.

In fact since its inception the tide has turned against PlanB’s use in any circumstances because medical research is demonstrating its mechanism is not what it was originally believed to be and the new mechanism of action breaches the ethical principles which have been stated by the Vatican wrt to rape from the beginning of the matter.

[PlanB] is it is not an abortifacient…

So do you mean it is not interceptive or not contragestive or what exactly?

If it is interceptive or contragestive then it is immoral to use if ovulation is in play.
Do you accept this?

 

[QwertyGirl]

There are no exceptions. You are wrong and the Church is correct.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

 

[Pup7]

So do you mean it is not interceptive or not contragestive or what exactly?

What about that statement eludes you?

Once implantation has occurred, it cannot undo it. It just can’t. It’s why it’s not given after a specific length of time - it will not abort a pregnancy. It will not unattach an implanted embryo. It just can’t. It doesn’t.

RU-486 is the only true abortion pill.

The Church can consider blocking implantation abortion. Medically this is not abortion. It’s just not. Let me say this again: medically, to hinder implantation is not an abortion. And I know that the Church states otherwise. Therefore by pharmacological definition, Plan B is not an abortifacient. If you take it after implantation has occurred, it will not terminate the pregnancy because it’s simply not powerful enough.

Like I said, it’s the same reason an OCP isn’t medically/pharmacologically/actually an abortifacient. If it was, it would be impossible to become pregnant while on it. And women get pregnant while taking the Pill and have perfectly healthy babies.

I have no idea why you cannot read and comprehend this.

 

[Pup7]

Well it is actually. Its part of a well known Catholic Hospital protocol used to determine if ovulation, but not implantation, is likely in play before deciding if PlanB may be given.
It seems that if ovulation is in play PlanB may NOT be morally used.

It’s not a “test protocol”.

it’s standard of practice for everyone everywhere when Plan B is given.

No facility will give it if the woman tests as pregnant because it will not work.

A woman will only test as pregnant if the egg has implanted. Not if it has been fertilized. Only if it has implanted.

They won’t give it because it will not end a pregnancy.

It is not called a “test protocol”.

 

[Pup7]

It is irrelevant when Plan B first existed. Plan B is a morning after pill and the Church bans the use of morning after pills.
Use of it by Catholics or support of its use by Catholics contradicts Church teaching.

Of course it’s relevant. You stated they were referencing it. I’m telling you it’s impossible for them to have done so.

 

[Pup7]

It seems that if ovulation is in play PlanB may NOT be morally used.

I invite you to research the matter (the Peioira protocol) and advise me if I am mistaken in my understanding by quoting respected Catholic sources (as opposed to your own authority).

No facility will give Plan B if the woman tests positive for pregnancy, Catholic or not. Holy smokes.

What’s even better is that she would not be pregnant from the rape with those numbers assuming she was in the ED within a day or two (and actually, possibly even longer, now that I think back to the lab values of a recent patient). Because those levels are far too high for that to be possible.

I invite you to drop the matter because it’s 100% clear, as it was in the other thread, that you have absolutely zero idea as to what you’re talking about here.

This isn’t by my own authority. It’s by standards of medical practice and by knowing basic biology and pharmacology.

 

[Pup7]

The absolute best part here - and why I feel my goal has been reached - is you are finally admitting without admitting it that there are assuredly times that giving Plan B is licit.

That makes me happy that I know you wouldn’t necessarily let a rape victim suffer.

I’ll sit here and repeat myself all day long just to watch those words flash on my screen.

 

[thistle]

Nope. Nope. Nope.

I repeat that you are wrong and the Church is right.

From Dignitas Personae:

"23. Alongside methods of preventing pregnancy which are, properly speaking, contraceptive, that is, which prevent conception following from a sexual act, there are other technical means which act after fertilization, when the embryo is already constituted, either before or after implantation in the uterine wall. Such methods are interceptive if they interfere with the embryo before implantation and contragestative if they cause the elimination of the embryo once implanted.

In order to promote wider use of interceptive methods,[43] it is sometimes stated that the way in which they function is not sufficiently understood. It is true that there is not always complete knowledge of the way that different pharmaceuticals operate, but scientific studies indicate that the effect of inhibiting implantation is certainly present, even if this does not mean that such interceptives cause an abortion every time they are used, also because conception does not occur after every act of sexual intercourse. It must be noted, however, that anyone who seeks to prevent the implantation of an embryo which may possibly have been conceived and who therefore either requests or prescribes such a pharmaceutical, generally intends abortion."

Do you see the 43 in brackets. This explains what is being referred to:
"The interceptive methods which are best known are the IUD (intrauterine device) and the so-called “morning-after pill.

Also it does not matter if Plan B came out after the Church document was written. It applies to any morning after pill. If a new one comes out several times a year for decades to come it makes no difference. They are all covered by Dignitas Personae.

 

[Pup7]

It almost pains me to say this, but Tatum has dug up evidence to dispute your claim that it is always wrong.

You’re wrong, my friend. Continuously reposting this excerpt just doesn’t make you right.

 

[thistle]

It almost pains me to say this, but Tatum has dug up evidence to dispute your claim that it is always wrong.

You’re wrong, my friend. Continuously reposting this excerpt just doesn’t make you right.

Dignitas Personae is the official teaching of the Church. The official teaching trumps your personal opinion.

 

[Pup7]

Pup7:

It almost pains me to say this, but Tatum has dug up evidence to dispute your claim that it is always wrong.

You’re wrong, my friend. Continuously reposting this excerpt just doesn’t make you right.

Dignitas Personae is the official teaching of the Church. The official teaching trumps your personal opinion.

It’s not my personal opinion. Tatum has found (well, not really found - he/she has posted it; I was told by multiple persons it existed and because I trust those persons I trusted it did) evidence that contradicts your incessant reposting.

And to be honest, I don’t care if you think it’s my personal opinion. Literally. I don’t.

 

[Tatum]

As I said what I posted was but one part of the Peioria protocol. It appearsr you have not heard of it given that you did not recognise this part of the testing (there are other decisions made depending on other variations in the results).

What I am demonstrating to you is that your above universalised assertion,
"Theres no dramatic investigation to see if there she’s released an egg",
appears medically misinformed for a Catholic medical professional to make.

Nor are you willing to confirm that you have long read the Catholic Ethical Directives (quoted throughout this thread). So the answer must be no to that also.

You present here as a fully informed, Catholic medical professional and yet seem to come out with over simplified statements re the Catholic approach to treating rape victims.

When challenged to clarify your own statements, or are invited to research and comment on what others have researched that appears to contradict some of your personal views re both medicine and ethics, you appear dismissive and get somewhat personalised and don’t candidly engage.

That isn’t normal for a Catholic open to seeking the truth.
You seem to have already found the truth and we are the dummies for not agreeing with you.

So back to the issue.

What I am demonstrating to you is that your above assertion,
"Theres no dramatic investigation to see if there she’s released an egg",
appears medically misinformed for a Catholic medical professional to make.

Please investigate the Peioria protocol and tell me why I am mistaken in thinking that, amongst other things, it is indeed about attempting to make a reasonable judgement as to whether or not pre implantation fertilisation has taken place.

And the reason it is trying to determine this is to make reasonably certain any drug administered will not inhibit its implantation - which would be immoral if the risk is great.

If PlanB has a strong inhibitory effect in addition to its contraceptive effects it will be immoral for a Catholic to choose to administer under the above conditions. Not wanting to investigate those conditions, if it is reasonable to do so, makes no difference to this moral outcome just as closing one’s eyes when one points and pulls the trigger of a gun makes no difference to the immorality of killing an innocent person.

Fertilised non implanted eggs have has much right to life as an implanted one. The immorality of killing either form of human life is defined by the word “abortion” in our Church.

 

[Pup7]

News flash:

There is no long drawn out dramatic investigation to see if an egg has been released because no insurance company in the United States will pay for that for Plan B administration as it is not protocol or standard of care/practice, however you care to word it.

Second reason: not every ED facility in the US is going to have the means to do all this elaborate workup you’re discussing.

Third reason: in some locations these labs take days to come back, and with Plan B you are working against the clock.

I know very well I have more experience with any of those three factors than you.

Just stop it. You’re lecturing me, and I personally couldn’t care less what you think of me as a person, a provider, or to be quite truthful as a Catholic, because it has zero effect upon you personally.

All very strange for a Catholic open to seeking the truth.
You seem to have already found the truth and we are the dummies for not agreeing with you.

Second news flash: I sought the truth, I sought counsel, and I got a trusted answer from a more reliable source than some random poster on the Internet.

The only person here who has said any of the rest of that in your quote is you. Not me. You appear to have inadequate knowledge of human biology, me as person (confirmed), the US insurance system (also confirmed as you are in Australia), or anything else related to those factors in this discussion.

You yourself have posted there are times it is permissible. You’re hell bent on driving home details that no one here cares about - but you.

The bottom line here is none of this has any effect on you as a person or as a parishioner. I really am unconcerned with what you think.

You don’t need to teach me anything here. Move on. You were soundly popped back in the other thread. You just won’t let this go. Let it. You’re not enlightening me, I find your persistence amusing - but you’re reaching into the category of just plain sad.

You’re getting nowhere with this. But it’s amusing and sad to watch you try.

 

[Tatum]

Pup7 we have established, given you are unwilling to confirm otherwise, that:
(a) Up until now you have not known/studied the Catholic Peioria protocol.
It is my understanding this has been used to detect the presence of a non-implanted fertilised egg or not so a decision may be made as to the morality of admistering PlanB or not.
You have denied that any institution conducts such tests.

(b) Up until now you have not studied the Catholic Ethical Directives.
It seems to contradict some of the statements you are opining and which many catholic contributors here also pick up on.

When you are invited to research them and quote where your interlocuters are mistaken you feel no need to do so but start attacking the man rather than the ball.

When you are prepared to join your fellow Catholics as fellow seekers of truth do come back to us.

Otherwise I suggest the more personalised your comments become on this thread the more clear it becomes your views have no Catholic credibility whatsoever and no one will take you seriously from this point forward.
Which is surely the opposite effect of why you are posting here.
Until that time, God bless and good night nurse.

 

[Pup7]

There’s a fourth reason, actually.

It is 100% illegal in the United States to deny a person the full spectrum of care simply because someone believes the patient shouldn’t have it if you’re not in a facility that has access to and offers the care in question.

Oh, and a caveat, one you ceaselessly avoid:

We have laws that protect the religious rights of health care workers, which means if I feel I can’t administer the medication, someone else can do it instead of me.

 

[Pup7]

Pup7 we have established, given you are unwilling to confirm otherwise, that:
(a) Up until now you have not known/studied the Catholic Peioria protocol.
It is my understanding this has been used to detect the presence of a non-implanted fertilised egg or not so a decision may be made as to the morality of admistering PlanB or not.
You have denied that any institution conducts such tests.

(b) Up until now you have not studied the Catholic Ethical Directives.
It seems to contradict some of the statements you are opining and which many catholic contributors here also pick up on.

When you are invited to research them and quote where your interlocuters are mistaken you feel no need to do so but start attacking the man rather than the ball.

When you are prepared to join your fellow Catholics as fellow seekers of truth do come back to us.

Otherwise I suggest the more personalised your comments become on this thread the more clear it becomes your views have no Catholic credibility whatsoever and no one will take you seriously from this point forward.
Which is surely the opposite effect of why you are posting here.
Until that time, God bless and good night nurse.

Up until now you’ve failed to read and comprehend at least 90% of anything I’ve posted, mostly because it doesn’t agree with you or what you expect me to say. There is zero reason for someone working in a non-Catholic facility to do a protocol that no secular insurance company is going to pay for - because it’s not standard of practice either for the med or that facility. You clearly know nothing about administration of medications. So I don’t care if you think I’ve disregarded your post on that - I didn’t, I clearly read it.

You continuously disregard anything posted that didn’t agree with you. Consistently. I’m not going to fawn all over something without reason. I gave clear-cut, valid reasons as to why what you posted is in most cases inapplicable. You ignored them. Every time.

I 100% couldn’t care less about your summation of my Catholicity, as it matters not one whit amongst the Four Last Things, and will pray that you find the wisdom and grace in your time remaining on this earth to be far less judgmental in your appraisals of others.

This conversation died posts and posts ago. Thank God you’ve realized that. Of course you never wanted discussion in the first place. You wanted me to swoon and confess all my wrongs. No wrongs committed by me, as I’ve not administered Plan B - I only asked educated people on the subject what Catholic parameters exist. I will trust them. I don’t trust yours.

 

[Pup7]

Otherwise I suggest the more personalised your comments become on this thread the more clear it becomes your views have no Catholic credibility whatsoever and no one will take you seriously from this point forward.

One last thing.

I’d read over the marriage thread if I were you.

Good day.

 

[DeniseNY]

no one will take you seriously from this point forward.

Nonsense. In her time here, Pup7 has become a very well liked and well respected poster.

 

[Tatum]

You are welcome to respond to the challenges to her views that she is unwilling to address then.

It cannot but be noted she has side-stepped most of the reasonable questions for clarification put to her.