Eucharist; Communion; Lord's Supper

[Verbum_Caro]

Other than the fact that it says that they must in the Mass, I cannot find it right now, either. I will look some more when I can

Valid and invalid means that it does what it is supposed to. In this case, if the priest does not complete the sacrifice, there is no sacrifice there. Although Jesus may be present, the priest has not completed his role in the Mass.

Thank you raph. Please let me know if you find anything.

I’ll note, as I did above that the obligation of the priest to receive is stated in the strictest possible terms, it is illicit in the strongest sense. But I question if there is anything that states it is invalid. You mention that if the priest does not complete the sacrifice that there is no sacrifice. I’ve heard this before, but I’m not sure why it follows. In my mind, perfecting the sacrifice assumes that there is a sacrifice to perfect. If you see what I mean.

Here’s an interesting article from the Catholic Encyclopedia on this point. Speaking of the theory that Communion is co-essential to the Sacrifice of the Mass, then:

The Last Supper also would have been a true sacrifice only on condition that Christ had given the Communion not only to His apostles but also to Himself. There is however no evidence that such a Communion ever took place, probable as it may appear. For the rest, the Communion of the priest is not the sacrifice, but only the completion of, and participation in, the sacrifice, it belongs therefore not to the essence, but to the integrity of the sacrifice.

Let me know what you think, and if you find anything that can help us out.

Thank you very much,
VC

 

[2nd_Adam]

Why are you trying to cause division Adam. You do this constantly. You start of with a post that leads people to believe that you just want “to know” and then you begin twisting and contorting the truth.

You are well aware that protestant denominations do not believe the same things regarding the Eucharist as the Catholic Church. We have discussed this in other threads of yours so stop trying to cause division.

I’m not trying to cause division in the body of Christ. I think you might not be aware of the great diversity of views between the various churches in the body of Christ. I think you have had only a Baptist background prior to becoming Catholic. Many Protestants do not share that same Baptist view in regards to communion and baptism. Maybe we can learn from Lutherans, Anglicans and Orthodox Christians when they post on the subject of communion and baptism in what those churches actually believe.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by izoid
As you know, Catholics take John 6 literally. We believe that Jesus is fully present in the host and the cup. When we partake of the Eucharist we are eating the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus.

Protestants view communion as a symbolic act. No other group views the Eucharist as Catholics do. Does that mean that they have a lwer view of it? I will let you make that determination.

See Izoid, Catholic Answers is education for all of us!

 

[2nd_Adam]

I am not all that familiar with EO. Do all EO priests have apostolic succesion and are able to consecrate the bread and wine?

Can someone answer this question for us? In regards to EO, is the correct description Orthodox as compared to Eastern Orthodox?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes, the Catholic Church considers the Orthodox Church as having apostolic succession and valid sacraments.

Thanks for the education. So, is there an essential difference of being Orthodox or Catholic?

 

[izoid]

I’m not trying to cause division in the body of Christ. I think you might not be aware of the great diversity of views between the various churches in the body of Christ. I think you have had only a Baptist background prior to becoming Catholic. Many Protestants do not share that same Baptist view in regards to communion and baptism. Maybe we can learn from Lutherans, Anglicans and Orthodox Christians when they post on the subject of communion and baptism in what those churches actually believe.

I am very well aware of the various views and I stand by my comment that no protestant denomination holds the same view as the Catholic Church. You called that view into question when you know it is not true.

Calvin, the founder of Reformed theology holds a much lower view than the Catholic Church. In his Institutes, book 4 chapter 18 he entitles it,“Of the Popish Mass. How it not only profanes, but annihilates the Lord’s supper”. Then he talks about how Satan has adulterated the Catholic Mass.

You yourself indicated that you would like your current pastor to have a more Reformed view of the Eucharist. Were you aware that your Reformed theology holds this view of the Catholic Eucharist and mass?

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam;6031324:

Reformed Christians have much more higher view than just being symbolic too.

Here is a quote from JI Packer, a Reformed theologian. THis is commenting on the Westminster Confession.

," not “constitutes”),

Represent and symbolic are pretty close in meaning, are they not?

When many of us Protestants jump from Baptist churches to Reformed Churches, many of us struggle with the different view in regards to the sacraments. Go to the Westminister Confession of Faith and writings of John Calvin and you will know that they are very different views. Heck, in Reformed Churches… we baptise our infants. For instance, try calling the sacraments by the word sacraments in a Baptist Church and see what happens.

 

[izoid]

izoid;6031383:

2nd Adam;6031324:

Reformed Christians have much more higher view than just being symbolic too.

When many of us Protestants jump from Baptist churches to Reformed Churches, many of us struggle with the different view in regards to the sacraments. Go to the Westminister Confession of Faith and writings of John Calvin and you will know that they are very different views. Heck, in Reformed Churches… we baptise our infants. For instance, try calling the sacraments by the word sacraments in a Baptist Church and see what happens.

Are you saying that Packer is incorrect here?

 

[Marie5890]

Marie,

Actually, red isn’t specified or necessary, just the fact that it is wine.

VC

Thanks VC; I was told red wine when I went thru RCIA. But I do realize that misinformation comes out of that sometimes, too.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I am very well aware of the various views and I stand by my comment that no protestant denomination holds the same view as the Catholic Church. You called that view into question when you know it is not true.

Calvin, the founder of Reformed theology holds a much lower view than the Catholic Church. In his Institutes,

book 4 chapter 18 he entitles it,“Of the Popish Mass. How it not only profanes, but annihilates the Lord’s supper”. Then he talks about how Satan has adulterated the Catholic Mass.

Interesting quote Izoid. Now who appears to be causing a division in the body of Christ? John Calvin is not looked at to be our pope in Reformed Theology. We don’t have to adhere to everything that John Calvin believed. The standard for Reformed Theology is the Scriptures and not John Calvin. The Reformers had some very essential diffrences in their views of the sacraments.

 

[izoid]

Let’s see what Calvin teaches. Here are a few more quotes from Calvin himself.

“In this way are refuted not only the fiction of the Papists concerning transubstantiation, but all the gross figments and futile quibbles which either derogate from his celestial glory or are in some degree repugnant to the reality of his human nature. For we deem it no less absurd to place Christ under the bread or couple him with the bread, than to transubstantiate the bread into his body”.

“Those who insist that the formal words of the Supper “This is my body; this is my blood,” are to be taken in what they call the precisely litered sense, we repudiate as preposterous interpreters. For we hold it out of controversy that they are to be taken figuratively – the bread and wine receiving the name of that which they signify. Nor should it be thought a new or unwonted thing to transfer the name of things figured by metonomy to the sign, as similar modes of expression occur throughout the Scriptures, and we by so saying assert nothing but what is found in the most ancient and most approved writers of the Church”.

Are these the words of someone that holds the Eucharist in the same honor that Catholics do?

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam;6031439:

izoid;6031383:

Are you saying that Packer is incorrect here?

JI Packer nor John Calvin is the standard for truth of Reformed Theology, or the Christian Faith.

 

[Marie5890]

As someone else posted on either this thread or another there is also the problem for those with celiac disease.

We have several people in our parish family who have this problem so for them receiving the host is problematic physically.

They receive the Precious Blood.

During this time of the H1N1 concerns, our archbishop has asked that receiving from the Cup be temporary suspended, but made available for those who receiving the host is a medical problem.

So, for now, the Cup is not available to most of the laity, but we do have one set aside for those who cant otherwise receive the host.

 

[TheosisM]

Thanks for the education. So, is there an essential difference of being Orthodox or Catholic?

There are a number of important differences. The best thing to do is to do a search for this much discussed topic.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Thanks VC; I was told red wine when I went thru RCIA. But I do realize that misinformation comes out of that sometimes, too.

The limitation of oral tradition… just kidding… couldn’t pass that up.

 

[Janet1983]

I fully know that the sacraments or ordinances can be a potentially divisive issue among Christians. Lord willing, I will try hard not to make it one. There has to be room to allow for differences in this issue. I do struggle with my friend and teaching pastor at my church on this particular issue. He has grown very Reformed and quotes from historic and modern Reformed theologians and pastors all the time who have a distinctively different view than himself in regards to baptism and communion. Let’s start here: what’s the theoligical differences between the words of sacrament and ordinance? Do you believe that baptism and communion are means of infused grace in regards to sanctification? I believe justification is by imputation and forensic. However, I also believe the sacraments are means of infused grace in regards to santification.

I’m sorry I overlooked this post, but I will give my best to answer your question.
The word “sacrament” is derived from the Latin word “sacramentum” which can be translated as “obligation” or “oath of allegiance” in the military sense. Other than that it might be “devotion”, “dedication”, “consecration”.

The word “ordinance” is derived from the Latin as well meaning an authoritative decree (order), a prescribed usage, practice, or ceremony.

The difference in terminology is only marginal, but the wide implications go further than that. The implications combined with the word sacrament, especially in a RC context, are that the act itself has power attached to it.

An ordinance however implies more that it is an order, but not the actual grace giving institution.

I do not believe that pouring of water itself does have any further results than an infant with a wet head. The actual change is not done with a sacrament. We cannot make God do something for us by practicing a ritual. God however does change hearts and minds and the ordinance therefore is the result and outward sign of something that happened prior to the ordinance. As we fulfill our obligation to partake in an ordinance we obey Christ and show publicly what has happened inwardly. The believer’s baptism is an outward expression that is symbolic of the inward cleansing or remission of sins that has already taken place.
The Lord’s Supper is done in remembrance and participants communally eat the bread and drink the cup that are symbolically representative of the body and blood of Jesus.

I am aware that you might disagree with me. My intent is not to diminish your view of these things, I just point out the differences in theology.

 

[izoid]

Interesting quote Izoid. Now who appears to be causing a division in the body of Christ? John Calvin is not looked at to be our pope in Reformed Theology. We don’t have to adhere to everything that John Calvin believed. The standard for Reformed Theology is the Scriptures and not John Calvin. The Reformers had some very essential diffrences in their views of the sacraments.

The funny thing here is that I retrieved that post from the website that you are consistently pointing us to. I think you once called it your favorite website?

He may not be your pope, another reflection of your true feelings towards Catholics, but he certainly is the developer and founder of your faith. You proudly call yourself a Calvinist yet you want to separate yourself from his hateful speech towards Catholics?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Let’s see what Calvin teaches. Here are a few more quotes from Calvin himself.

“In this way are refuted not only the fiction of the Papists concerning transubstantiation, but all the gross figments and futile quibbles which either derogate from his celestial glory or are in some degree repugnant to the reality of his human nature. For we deem it no less absurd to place Christ under the bread or couple him with the bread, than to transubstantiate the bread into his body”.

I never said that John Calvin beileved the Catholic view. However, his views are quite different than other Reformers. Do you mind posting Luther’s view on the subject of communion?

 

[2nd_Adam]

The funny thing here is that I retrieved that post from the website that you are consistently pointing us to. I think you once called it your favorite website?

He may not be your pope, another reflection of your true feelings towards Catholics, but he certainly is the developer and founder of your faith. You proudly call yourself a Calvinist yet you want to separate yourself from his hateful speech towards Catholics?

I try hard to see a remnant church beyond the various branches of Christianity. I’m not sure what hateful speech your are talking about?

 

[izoid]

izoid;6031446:

2nd Adam;6031439:

JI Packer nor John Calvin is the standard for truth of Reformed Theology, or the Christian Faith.

I will be more clear. Is JI Packer incorrect in interpreting Calvin as believing that the elements in the Lord’s Supper are representative and not actual?