Eucharist for large numbers and on Good Friday

[JesuXPIPassio]

Hi, I have a question about the Eucharist in the East where it’s done by intinction.

As you know, with us Latins and with some Easterners, the Eucharist comes in little round hosts. When the priest anticipates a lot of people coming to receive Eucharist, he simply adds more hosts. If that fails, he can simply break them into smaller pieces as communicants come up.

But with Easterners, how do they prepare for large congregations? The Diskos seems rather small to accomodate enough Eucharistic Bread for large numbers. Even then, the actual part of the Prosphora Seal that would form the Lamb is quite small.

Is it just that when the occassion calls for it, there simply is huge Diskos, a huge piece of bread and a huge Prosphora seal? If so, what if while giving out Eucharist, that, too, fails? While Latins can just break the Hosts into smaller parts, what do Greeks do?

Also, do Greeks take the Eucharist on Good Friday the same way us Latins do? For us, it’s forbidden to Consecrate on Good Friday, and only the Hosts from Maundy Thursday are used. None of the Sacred Blood is consumed.

Do Greeks have the same restrictions on Consecration on Good Friday? If so, how is the Eucharist consumed? The Greek custom requires intinction in the Precious Blood; but presumably, they do not save any of the Precious Blood from the Mass of the Lord’s Supper on the previous night. So how does this go?

I find the East to be so interesting and I want so much to learn more, but it’s so hard to find good books in English. It’s such a fascinating topic. Can anyone suggest some good sites that explain these things in a lot of detail?

 

[Woodstock]

Bigger loafs and/or more loafs and smaller cuts. If that fails, the priest can use the spoon to cut the wine-soaked bread even smaller before distributing it. By the time he gets to the end of the line, he’ll have crumbs floating around which he can commune with, too. Larger crowds usually mean more priests to help as well.

In the east, all weekdays of the Great Fast are aliturgical unless a major feast is on the same day. The Feast of the Annunciation can fall on Good Friday and in that case there is a liturgy with a complicated scenario of commemorations. We celebrate Pre-Sanctified Liturgies on weekdays with the Eucharist reserved from the previous Sunday.

Good Friday starts on Thursday night with Matins. There are 12 Gospel readings that night. Friday starts with the Royal Hours in the morning. It is followed by Vespers in the afternoon, usually at 3 PM. During Vespers, Christ is removed from the cross and a song of mourning is sung. The epitaphios is “buried” in a sepulcher or bier in the church and everyone venerates it. Then comes Jerusalem Matins on Friday night and a procession with the epitaphios. It is a long day and the tradition is to hold a black fast throughout the day, abstaining from all food and drink from sunrise to sunset.

 

[Aramis]

Hi, I have a question about the Eucharist in the East where it’s done by intinction.

But with Easterners, how do they prepare for large congregations? The Diskos seems rather small to accomodate enough Eucharistic Bread for large numbers. Even then, the actual part of the Prosphora Seal that would form the Lamb is quite small.

When large enough congregations are present, multiple chalices and multiple loaves. (and usually concelebrations.) For the normal mode for large groups is multiple chalices, with a priest for each chalice.

In some EC churches (And from what I’ve read, a few EO as well) a deacon may serve as a minister of holy communion when there is no concelebrating priest. In certain (highly latinized) EC Churches, laymen can be deputed to serve as EMHC’s.

But each person distributing communion does so from a separate chalice in my experience.

Also, even if the precious body is all distributed, there is usually some of the precious blood remaining, and as for infants, the last few communicants could be communed with the precious blood alone.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

As noted above, a priest/bishop (or in cases deacon) can further divide the particles as needed or even use just a small element of what appears to be the “wine.”

This isn’t too dissimilar from a few occasions where at a Roman Mass without reserved sacrament and a limited number of hosts the priest has opted to split them in half… Even a “small portion” is just as much as a “large bit”.

In my parish, we usually have a good bit left at the end of distribution. The deacon is tasked with consuming what remains. If a good deal is left over, the pastor and/or one of the adult serves steps in to assist in the consumption of what remains as it cannot be reserved.

 

[bpbasilphx]

In the Russian Liturgikon, there is a provision for a second consecration should the priest absolutely run out of the Holy Gifts.

Basically he cuts a new Lamb, saying the appropriate prayers, and then says only the part of the Anaphora that applies to the Body of Christ.

The same procedure can be followed if he runs out of the Holy Blood.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

In the Russian Liturgikon, there is a provision for a second consecration should the priest absolutely run out of the Holy Gifts.

Basically he cuts a new Lamb, saying the appropriate prayers, and then says only the part of the Anaphora that applies to the Body of Christ.

The same procedure can be followed if he runs out of the Holy Blood.

That is fascinating, I was unaware of that.

Thank you for sharing that!

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

In the Russian Liturgikon, there is a provision for a second consecration should the priest absolutely run out of the Holy Gifts.

Basically he cuts a new Lamb, saying the appropriate prayers, and then says only the part of the Anaphora that applies to the Body of Christ.

The same procedure can be followed if he runs out of the Holy Blood.

I’m curious, in such a case, wouldn’t the Divine Liturgy be lengthened?

Us Latins have numerous Masses every Sunday at each parish. At those Divine Liturgies, do they also have multiple ones to serve people who come in at different times? If so, wouldn’t lengthening one Divine Liturgy for the need of repeating the Consecration exceed the alotted time, delaying the next Divine Liturgy from starting on time?

Or do all the people of each parish share in the one same Divine Liturgy?

I’m accustomed to Latin custom of just the one hour on Sundays. I know that some of the Eastern traditions have their liturgies for the whole morning. Maybe because of that, the time added is irrelevant, because it’s just an extra ten or so minutes added to the several hours that the Divine Liturgy wold normally consume?

Sorry for the neophite question. I’ve only been fortunate enough to attend one Divine Liturgy, and it was a very small parish that just had the one Sunday service. I just find this all so fascinating.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

Bigger loafs and/or more loafs and smaller cuts. If that fails, the priest can use the spoon to cut the wine-soaked bread even smaller before distributing it. By the time he gets to the end of the line, he’ll have crumbs floating around which he can commune with, too. Larger crowds usually mean more priests to help as well.

Thanks, everyone, for your answers.

When multiple loaves are included, how exactly is Consecration done? Does the priest do the Consecration Institution several times, one for each loaf?

Or does one Consecration cover all the other loaves, like how in the Latin liturgy with a large amount of communicants, the priest’s Consecration at the altar would also Consecrate hosts set aside at a different table? Or are several Diskoses placed on the altar, and all of them are Consecrated at the same time?

In those cases, would the lone celebrant still perform the same cutting of the Lamb and the Commemorations with each loaf? That sounds like an enormous job.

Or do other priests individually stand at eash Diskos and perform the same Consecration Ritual simultaneously?

Also, with the Presanctified Liturgy, is the Precious Blood kept and reserved? For some reason, the Latin Rite forbids it. Do Easterners allow that?

 

[Aramis]

I’m curious, in such a case, wouldn’t the Divine Liturgy be lengthened?

Or do all the people of each parish share in the one same Divine Liturgy?

No apology needed.

The general rule is One Divine liturgy per day per altar.

The Ruthenians make an exemption for vigil liturgies.

So, if a large crowd is expected, you call for deacons and concelebrants, and use several chalices.

It requires, even amongst the Ruthenians, the bishop’s permission for a single priest to celebrate more than one liturgy per day, plus a vigil on saturday night… and that permission is done mostly for missions, which have their own altar…

Each Church Sui Iuris makes its own rules on the matter, but the general tone is One priest, one DL per day or less, and one altar, one DL per day or less.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Also, with the Presanctified Liturgy, is the Precious Blood kept and reserved? For some reason, the Latin Rite forbids it. Do Easterners allow that?

Generally, a separate Lamb is prepared for reservation for the Presanctified Liturgy that is dyed with the Precious Blood.

As many extra Lambs are cut, prepared, and consecrated as are needed. The Epiclesis still says, “and make this bread…” in the singular, because Christ is one. And all the Lambs are elevated together at “Holy gifts for the holy people.”

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post
In the Russian Liturgikon, there is a provision for a second consecration should the priest absolutely run out of the Holy Gifts.

Basically he cuts a new Lamb, saying the appropriate prayers, and then says only the part of the Anaphora that applies to the Body of Christ.

The same procedure can be followed if he runs out of the Holy Blood.
I’m curious, in such a case, wouldn’t the Divine Liturgy be lengthened?**

The last thing we worry about is how long the Divinie LIturgy is. Since this second consecration is said silently, it would not take that long. Only about 2-3 paragraphs would be recited.

BTW–only ONCE have I heard of this actually happening in my 35+ years of worshipping Eastern style.

Sometimes a single big honking Lamb and big chalice are used when a large number of communicants are expected, sometimes more than one Lamb (I’ve seen the Carpatho-Russians precut them at the Prothesis) and even more than one Diskos and Chalice. Just depends on local use in this case.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

Thanks for your reply.

Does the priest then just cut the Lamb while it’s in the Chalice using the Spoon and/or the Spear? Or is it pre-cut at the time of the actual Consecration?

 

[Aramis]

Thanks for your reply.

Does the priest then just cut the Lamb while it’s in the Chalice using the Spoon and/or the Spear? Or is it pre-cut at the time of the actual Consecration?

Both.

Typically, the priest cuts a number of particles that all he expects to receive can do so, including part of the lamb (the large piece cut during proskomedia, and usually bearing the prosphora seal) in the count, since he will be receiving with part of the lamb himself. So, from before the DL proper, there are particles and the Lamb, and the lamb will be broken into 4 parts, of which in a deaconless non-concelebration, 3 go into the chalice AFTER the consecration. in some cases, the lance will be used at this point to make more particles of one of the pieces of the Lamb (I’ve seen this once) before placing into the chalice.

If he finds he counted poorly, he can use the communion spoon to divide the parts of the body of Christ that is in the chalice for a few extra communicants. Usually, the large piece of the lamb is towards the bottom.

Likewise, if too many pieces were cut, the priest will sometimes distribute multiple of the cut particles to the last several communicants. This can be quite a surprise if one is expecting a small piece, and gets a heaping spoonful of Our Lord!

 

[Diak]

At least in my experience serving for larger services in the UGCC, multiple diskoi, Ahnets (Lambs), and chalices are prepared at the Proskomidia, but since it is one Sacrifice the Anaphora and Epiclesis are only said once. I’ve not run into a situation where the Holy Mysteries “ran out”. I have seen where a priest will take a chalice and carefully spoon out the Mysteries to a second smaller chalice if a concelebrating priest is present to assist in giving Holy Communion.

For Divine Liturgies on Sundays of the Great Fast starting with Cheesefare Sunday through Holy Week, multiple Ahnets are consecrated on Sundays for the various Presancitfied Liturgies during the week. At a large cathedral where many may approach for Communion during Presanctified sometimes another separate artophorion is used to house the extra Lambs if there is no room in the kivot (tabernacle).
Fr. Dcn. RLB

 

[dochawk]

N
It requires, even amongst the Ruthenians, the bishop’s permission for a single priest to celebrate more than one liturgy per day, plus a vigil on saturday night… and that permission is done mostly for missions, which have their own altar…

Each Church Sui Iuris makes its own rules on the matter, but the general tone is One priest, one DL per day or less, and one altar, one DL per day or less.

Both the (Ruthenian) Cathedral in Van Nuys and the associated pro-Cathedral in Phoenix have both 8 A.M. and 10 A.M. Divine Liturgies–though on Easter, at least the pro-Cathedral moves to a single 9 A.M. service beginning with Resurrection Matins.

hawk

 

[Aramis]

Both the (Ruthenian) Cathedral in Van Nuys and the associated pro-Cathedral in Phoenix have both 8 A.M. and 10 A.M. Divine Liturgies–though on Easter, at least the pro-Cathedral moves to a single 9 A.M. service beginning with Resurrection Matins.

hawk

ANd we have yet to see how Msrg. Dino is going to rule on that… Eparch William gave permission.

 

[Diak]

ANd we have yet to see how Msrg. Dino is going to rule on that… Eparch William gave permission.

Doubt that aspect will change much - coming from an Eparchy where that is commonplace and himself having served in parishes with multiple Sunday DLs.
FDRLB

 

[bpbasilphx]

**

Thanks for your reply.

Does the priest then just cut the Lamb while it’s in the Chalice using the Spoon and/or the Spear? Or is it pre-cut at the time of the actual Consecration?**

The Lamb for Pre-sanctified is cut in the usual way, before communion at the Sunday liturgy is dyed with the Precious Blood, and put aside to dry.

At the Presanctified Liturgy during the Psalms wine and water are poured into the Chalice, saying nothing. The Great Entrance is made with the Presanctified Lamb.

Just before Communion, the Pre-Sanctified Lamb is broken and portions put in the Chalice in the usual way. In some uses, the Priest or Deacon receive from the Chalice as well; in others they do not. Communion is distributed to the faithful in the customary manner.

 

[mgy100]

I’ve thought a little bit about my response to this thread. All good posts indeed.
Here’s my take on this subject:

1. joyous is the occasion that this arises as an issue, to have that many people at Liturgy!
2. have you seen the chalice used at Christ the Saviour in Moscow. It is HUGE.
3. remember, as it has been said here the clergy who are administering Communion have this down to a science. Somehow it always works out!!!
4. I’m glad this is even an issue, I have seen times when no one has come forth for Communion. So let us rejoice that we have come to the time when folks are saying “there are so many people partaking in the Holy Mysteries, please tell us how the Clergy ensure this won’t happen.”