Eucharist... is it a sin not to believe?

  • Thread starter Thread starter wisdomseeker
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
W

wisdomseeker

Guest
"It is wonderful that we Christians may share in the holy supper of the Lord whether it is done in memoriam as we evangelicals believe or by transubstantiation as Catholics do.
(this a message from my presbyterian friend emailed to me.)

I would like to start a thread on this subject. my friend seems to think that it is ok to believe whatever. she makes me think that truth is what i believe. i believe therefore it must be true. as for me on the other hand do not agree with this concept to me the truth is what Jesus meant by what He says. i dont want this argument to come between our friendship so i must be very carefull how to refute her believe.

anyone out there have any opinion on this?
 
Obviously, any time religion becomes a subject of discussion between friends of different denominations, things can get heated…

Fortunately, I have an Evangelical Friend who likes to discuss theology and while our discussions are heated, they always include respect to each other… and fortunately, we both like to have intellectual arguments :).

That being said, I think I would approach the position in this way.
  1. Catholics believe that the Eucharist is done in memoriam of Jesus just as Protestant do. We do however believe that there is a larger significance to the meal.
  2. Since Evangelicals are firmly in the Sola Scriptura camp, I would ask if it is only a memorial to Jesus, why did Jesus claim that the bread and the wine were his body and blood? Further, why did Paul claim that those who sin against the Eucharist are sinning against the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ?
  3. Ask her what she would think it would mean if the Catholic Belief of the Real Presence (through transubstantiation) was true? What she would do if she had the opportunity to really partake of Jesus’s Real Body and Blood but the only way to obtain it would be to become either Catholic or Orthodox?
–
Bill
 
mchale said:
Obviously, any time religion becomes a subject of discussion between friends of different denominations, things can get heated…

Fortunately, I have an Evangelical Friend who likes to discuss theology and while our discussions are heated, they always include respect to each other… and fortunately, we both like to have intellectual arguments :).

That being said, I think I would approach the position in this way.
  1. Catholics believe that the Eucharist is done in memoriam of Jesus just as Protestant do. We do however believe that there is a larger significance to the meal.
  2. Since Evangelicals are firmly in the Sola Scriptura camp, I would ask if it is only a memorial to Jesus, why did Jesus claim that the bread and the wine were his body and blood? Further, why did Paul claim that those who sin against the Eucharist are sinning against the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ?
  3. Ask her what she would think it would mean if the Catholic Belief of the Real Presence (through transubstantiation) was true? What she would do if she had the opportunity to really partake of Jesus’s Real Body and Blood but the only way to obtain it would be to become either Catholic or Orthodox?
–
Bill
Click to expand...
thank you for responding. my friend is very opiniated and thinks she knows everything. difficult to dialogue with in matters of religion. she has her mind made up about the catholic church. (it is no good.)
 
wisdomseeker said:
thank you for responding. my friend is very opiniated and thinks she knows everything. difficult to dialogue with in matters of religion. she has her mind made up about the catholic church. (it is no good.)
Click to expand...
Is it just the Eucharist that she is referring to??
 
Hi:

I’m sure you’ll get a lot of this in this thread, but I think the Gospel of St. John makes things as clear as can be on this subject. I don’t really see a lot of wiggle room in it. It is what it is, so to speak:

“I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.” As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

Remind your friend to read John’s gospel, and then perhaps challenge your friend on where this “symbolism” lies.

Yours in Christ,

Steven
 
"Wisdomeseeker:
thank you for responding. my friend is very opiniated and thinks she knows everything. difficult to dialogue with in matters of religion. she has her mind made up about the catholic church. (it is no good.)
Click to expand...
bengal_fan said:
nod and smile
nod and smile
😃
Click to expand...
Perhaps you should limit your conversations to politics…😃
If you want to give information about the early Church, look up Eucharist and believe. I included only one of many. It’s all on CA. Just look it up, copy paste in an email or commit it to memory. But that will only stir the pot. Pride keeps us from learning sometimes. Just pray for your friend and limit your conversations. Give her a copy of Scott Hahns, story. Tell her about 3 major Presbyterians that converted to Catholicism and why…Scott Hahn, Kimberly Hahn, Marcus Grodi [The Journey Home - on EWTN]

earlychristianwritings.com/

earlychristianwritings.co…s-roberts.html

Quote:
CHAPTER VII.–LET US STAND ALOOF FROM SUCH HERETICS. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion[of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Just one of many. Lamb’s Supper will change your life and make sense out of a lot of stuff commonly misunderstood by Catholic even.
 
wisdomseeker said:
no. we also talking about salvation by faith without works.
Click to expand...
Oh OK. Usually those conversations just end up going in circles. What may be helpful is to ask your friend what her understanding is of the Roman Catholic Faith specifically. Then try to target the things maybe she is misunderstanding by showing some actual comparisons of things you have in common. For instance Roman Catholics understand that works do not save you just as Protestants do. But if you refer to Paul’s letter to the Romans he clearly tells us that just because we are under grace does not give us the liberty to keep sinning to test GOD’s grace. That is like serving 2 masters. So good works do have a place within our Faith. Although I don’t want to throw gasoline on the fire within your conversation.

PEACE and good luck
 
wisdomseeker said:
"It is wonderful that we Christians may share in the holy supper of the Lord whether it is done in memoriam as we evangelicals believe or by transubstantiation as Catholics do.
(this a message from my presbyterian friend emailed to me.)

I would like to start a thread on this subject. my friend seems to think that it is ok to believe whatever. she makes me think that truth is what i believe. i believe therefore it must be true. as for me on the other hand do not agree with this concept to me the truth is what Jesus meant by what He says. i dont want this argument to come between our friendship so i must be very carefull how to refute her believe.

anyone out there have any opinion on this?
Click to expand...
Your friend’s difficulty doesn’t just lie with her disbelief in the Eucharist but in her disbelief that there is truth to be known, i.e., that God has revealed Himself and thus there is Truth that CAN be known and it isn’t contingent on whether I happen to believe it or not. She is of the popular secular (and corrupted) mindset that tends to a spirituality without any belief attached to it - one just believes what one wants to and therefore what I believe is just fine and what you believe is just fine and if they differ, well, c’est la vie.

A book you might find helpful in addressing your friend is the late Dorothy L. Sayer’s Creed or Chaos?, published by Ignatius Press.
 
FCEGM said:
Your friend’s difficulty doesn’t just lie with her disbelief in the Eucharist but in her disbelief that there is truth to be known, i.e., that God has revealed Himself and thus there is Truth that CAN be known and it isn’t contingent on whether I happen to believe it or not. She is of the popular secular (and corrupted) mindset that tends to a spirituality without any belief attached to it - one just believes what one wants to and therefore what I believe is just fine and what you believe is just fine and if they differ, well, c’est la vie.

A book you might find helpful in addressing your friend is the late Dorothy L. Sayer’s Creed or Chaos?, published by Ignatius Press.
Click to expand...
it is a good idea. one time i emailed her some info about the catholic church, she refused to read. she told me she already knew everything about the CC. the only thing she apreciated about the CC was the catholic charity services.
 
This was her answer to john s Gospel. what do you guys think?

the disciples thought he said it because they had brought no bread, but Jesus made them understand that he was referring to the teaching of the Pharisees and the Sadduccees…: “ Then Jesus said unto them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.” And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.” But when Jesus perceived this, He said unto them, “O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, `because ye have brought no bread’? Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? How is it that ye do not understand that I spoke it not to you concerning bread, but that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees?” Then understood they that He bade them not to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.” However, we, Protestants, do not view the bread and wine of the Lord’s Supper as common bread and wine but respect them as symbols of the body of Jesus Christ, who was the Word made flesh and was crucified for our salvation. We, Presbyterians believe that while the bread and the wine remain unchanged, the Spirit elevates the believer through faith, to enjoy the presence of Christ in such a way that is glorious and real and yet indescribable. The bread and wine, through the Holy Spirit, communicate in a visible manner, what is read and hear in the gospels (I Corinthians 10. 16)
On the passage in John 6: 48-58 that you mentioned before, the listeners of Jesus misunderstood his statements, taking them in a purely physical meaning. They understood them in a literal sense and rejected it because it would involve cannibalism and use of blood, what was severely condemned by the Law (Genesis 9.4; Leviticus 7:26-27; 17.10-14; Deuteronomy 12.23-24). Jesus uses the language of eating and drinking to show the intimacy of the union between Christ and the believer. This spiritual union through which gives new life to the believer is also pictured later in the Gospels, as the union of the vine and its branches (15.1-8). The passage in John 6 also signifies the union with Christ and all the benefits of salvation received through Him.
As far as the teachings of St. Ignatius, we believe in the authority of the Bible only and nothing else (sola scriptura) as being the Word of God.
The good news is that despite our differences in what we believe and what we do differently, we are not saved by belonging to a Church either Catholic or Protestant. There is only one kind of Christian, those that have made Jesus Lord of their life, and the simplest definition of a “true” Church is any group of people that is united by a shared love of Jesus Christ.
 
wisdomseeker said:
This was her answer to john s Gospel. what do you guys think?

the disciples thought he said it because they had brought no bread, but Jesus made them understand that he was referring to the teaching of the Pharisees and the Sadduccees…: “ Then Jesus said unto them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.” And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.” But when Jesus perceived this, He said unto them, “O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, `because ye have brought no bread’? Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? How is it that ye do not understand that I spoke it not to you concerning bread, but that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees?” Then understood they that He bade them not to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.”
Click to expand...
Hi Wisdomseeker:
Code: 
 I'm afraid this is a bit out of context.  This is an exchange pre-dating the institution of the Holy Eucharist.  Here Jesus is dressing down His disciples a bit for their lack of faith, then also using the concept of leaven to illuminate a point to them about the Pharisees and Sadducees.  An interesting attempt at diversion from the institution of Eucharist by focusing on the fact that two wholly unrelated passages include bread.  Sort of a theological sleight of hand or something your friend is using here.  I see that a lot around here.  :wink: 

As far as Protestant beliefs, well.....I held some of them for a long while.  Fewer and fewer of them made sense to me as I got deeper into things.  Having said that though, I'm still feeling my way through my roll in conversion of others.  After my own conversion, I stayed in RCIA, now as a team member.  I love being witness to people experiencing their conversion experience.  There is a priceless moment.  It's a little different for everyone, and it comes at different points in the cycle.  But it's visible.  There is a change in the person.  You can see it in their eyes and on their faces.  It's humbling, and is a constant reminder of the importance of that ongoing conversion that I am experiencing as well.  Fact is though.....we lose about 1/4 of the people who begin with us.  I don't know why that is, and of course, I don't know if it's permanent.  For all I know they'll be back.
No matter what our level of knowledge.  How well we explain the facts of Catholocism to someone.  In the end, it is simply sowing seeds, as in the parable.  It is the work of God that eventually makes the truth known.  It is beyond man's power, whether they be Deacon, Priest, Bishop or Pope.  Only God causes that ultimate conversion to His Church.
I don’t believe I am called to apologetics, per se. I can simply relate where God led me, and what it has done and meant in my life. It has been made clear to me what the truth is. Pilate wondered if that was a subjective reality…truth. I don’t believe it can be. We all see it at our pace, and at God’s pleasure, but since there is only one truth, and since God is infinitely merciful and loving, then of course I have faith that in God’s time, he will make all the information available, not just to the intellect, but to all men’s hearts. Then…it is within our free will to join with him in the warmth of his eternal love, or keep ourselves in the coldness of distance.

Peace to you,

Blessings,

Steven
 
StevenFrancis said:
Hi Wisdomseeker:
Code: 
 I'm afraid this is a bit out of context.  This is an exchange pre-dating the institution of the Holy Eucharist.  Here Jesus is dressing down His disciples a bit for their lack of faith, then also using the concept of leaven to illuminate a point to them about the Pharisees and Sadducees.  An interesting attempt at diversion from the institution of Eucharist by focusing on the fact that two wholly unrelated passages include bread.  Sort of a theological sleight of hand or something your friend is using here.  I see that a lot around here.  :wink: 

As far as Protestant beliefs, well.....I held some of them for a long while.  Fewer and fewer of them made sense to me as I got deeper into things.  Having said that though, I'm still feeling my way through my roll in conversion of others.  After my own conversion, I stayed in RCIA, now as a team member.  I love being witness to people experiencing their conversion experience.  There is a priceless moment.  It's a little different for everyone, and it comes at different points in the cycle.  But it's visible.  There is a change in the person.  You can see it in their eyes and on their faces.  It's humbling, and is a constant reminder of the importance of that ongoing conversion that I am experiencing as well.  Fact is though.....we lose about 1/4 of the people who begin with us.  I don't know why that is, and of course, I don't know if it's permanent.  For all I know they'll be back.
No matter what our level of knowledge.  How well we explain the facts of Catholocism to someone.  In the end, it is simply sowing seeds, as in the parable.  It is the work of God that eventually makes the truth known.  It is beyond man's power, whether they be Deacon, Priest, Bishop or Pope.  Only God causes that ultimate conversion to His Church.
I don’t believe I am called to apologetics, per se. I can simply relate where God led me, and what it has done and meant in my life. It has been made clear to me what the truth is. Pilate wondered if that was a subjective reality…truth. I don’t believe it can be. We all see it at our pace, and at God’s pleasure, but since there is only one truth, and since God is infinitely merciful and loving, then of course I have faith that in God’s time, he will make all the information available, not just to the intellect, but to all men’s hearts. Then…it is within our free will to join with him in the warmth of his eternal love, or keep ourselves in the coldness of distance.

Peace to you,

Blessings,

Steven
Click to expand...
thank you for answering my post.
i began this talking with my presbyterian friend because she sent me some stuff from a presbeteryan point of view and i saw this as an opportunity to share my believes with her. she got somewhat frustared with me on the end. but that is ok, like you said only Our God can open their eyes. they think they know so much that it is almost impossible for them to seek the truth. the CC is very different, she is quite, i even see her as testing our faith just like God would do. many people leave like you said, they simply do not see, but how many people do we know for sure who are really interested in seeking God’s truth? not many. i think most people are more concerned with pretty talk and socializing, mingle with others, and how others make them feel important. in the CC we are not going to find that. why? because Christ is the Center of our attentin and not ourselves. Our Lord said this: “if you want to follow me pick up your cross daily.” i did not see a lot of hapiness in Jesus face as He carried His cross. neither are we to seek such a think is this world, not in the way of the world but the way of Jesus. the CC, the more i seek to understand her the more i find her to be of great mystery. almost like seeing the Glory of God.
I have been a catholic all my life, but did not knpw much about my faith so for while i wondered into other lands. every time i was in another church i always had that negging voice in my heart like a guilt feeling as if i was being unfaifull. i would feel really bad when someone would say anything about the CC. i could not defend it though because i did not know much about it, but i am learning. one day i decided to go and talk to the priest and told how i felt and the priest told this it is Our God defending you and calling you. after this i prayed that God would open my eyes and ears for i wanted to see and hear His truth. about 2 weeks praying this i began to find info on the CC everywhere. i began to see and i began to hear. i am very amazed by what i have learned so far and as i continue to learn.
now i am beginning to wonder about my protestants friends when they so affirm how much they believe in Jesus. i wonder if they really understand what it means to believe in Jesus. I think about those passage in the Bible how Jesus got upset with people because their umbelief. Protestants out of err denied the Eucharist and many other things that Jesus wants us to believe because it is important to Him. and even though we try to tell them they reject veemently. believing in Jesus is believing in what He said and not just believe that He was here.

Glory be to our God forever. for we have found His Kingdom.
 
That is an interesting question? Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ. The only place I know, that speaks about a curse for not discerning the body,blood of Jesus christ is in 1Corinthians 11… But this pertains to those christians who already believe in the true presence of Jesus christ in the Eucharist, not to unbelievers. So to an unbeliever of the true presence, it is not a sin to recieve a cracker and grape juice that symbolizes a rememberance of Jesus passion. But if the unbeliever recieves a consecrated Eucharist from a Catholic Church where the bread and wine are truly the body,blood, soul and divinity of Jesus christ, and knowing this is the belief of the Catholic church and somehow manages to receive holy communion, before confession, and or discerning the true presence of Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist, then I would think, Pauls curses from 1Corinthians 11:… could apply, depending on the person’s disposition.
 
Eucharist…is it a sin not to believe?

Yes, that would truly be missing the mark my friend.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top