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Bill_Pick
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Then why did Jesus not sayTAKE AND EAT THIS IS A SYMBOL OF MY BODY Matt26=26,Where does it say this is just a SYMBOL
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Mark77
Guest
**This is exactly why Jesus left us His One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church to guide us!
Allowed to make our own interpretations, errors like the false “symbolic” Eucharist develop.
“Martin Luther himself confirms that the early Church unanimously taught the Real Presence: 'of all fathers, as many as you can name, not one has ever spoken about the sacrament as these fanatics do. None of them uses such an expression as ‘it is simply bread and wine’ or ‘Christ’s body and blood are not present.’…Certainly among so many fathers and so many writings a negative argument should have turned up at least once, as happens in other articles; but actually they all stand uniformly and consistently on the affirmative side”** Luther’s Works (St Louis Mo: Concordia Publishing 1961), vol 37, 54.
Fr Frank Chacon & Jim Burnam, in their Beginning Apologetics 1, p. 9
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!
mark
Allowed to make our own interpretations, errors like the false “symbolic” Eucharist develop.
“Martin Luther himself confirms that the early Church unanimously taught the Real Presence: 'of all fathers, as many as you can name, not one has ever spoken about the sacrament as these fanatics do. None of them uses such an expression as ‘it is simply bread and wine’ or ‘Christ’s body and blood are not present.’…Certainly among so many fathers and so many writings a negative argument should have turned up at least once, as happens in other articles; but actually they all stand uniformly and consistently on the affirmative side”** Luther’s Works (St Louis Mo: Concordia Publishing 1961), vol 37, 54.
Fr Frank Chacon & Jim Burnam, in their Beginning Apologetics 1, p. 9
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!
mark
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Jon, I read the link which was interesting but, call me dense that’s fine, but I am not getting it.
But then when I was trying to understand the Eucharist, I made reference to the Gospels, not to any of the Letters of St. Paul. The way I see it is that while Jesus often spoke in parables, He also often spoke very plainly and simply and it is pretty easy to determine which is which when we read the Gospels.
It is understandable that Jesus would want to be very clear on very important matters, because He was speaking to a very wide audience. I’m not saying that Jesus “dumbed it down”, I’m just saying that it would be understandable for Him to make certain essential matters crystal clear.
In the case of the Eucharist, Jesus was very clear and unambiguous, and he made it plain repeatedly. He said “This is my body” and “This is my blood”. He never said anything was a symbol.
The Eucharist is not a symbol no matter how much someone might wish it to be so. In the plain words of Jesus Christ it is His body and His blood.
People do not need to over-think this, they simply need to consult the plain words of their Savior.
But then when I was trying to understand the Eucharist, I made reference to the Gospels, not to any of the Letters of St. Paul. The way I see it is that while Jesus often spoke in parables, He also often spoke very plainly and simply and it is pretty easy to determine which is which when we read the Gospels.
It is understandable that Jesus would want to be very clear on very important matters, because He was speaking to a very wide audience. I’m not saying that Jesus “dumbed it down”, I’m just saying that it would be understandable for Him to make certain essential matters crystal clear.
In the case of the Eucharist, Jesus was very clear and unambiguous, and he made it plain repeatedly. He said “This is my body” and “This is my blood”. He never said anything was a symbol.
The Eucharist is not a symbol no matter how much someone might wish it to be so. In the plain words of Jesus Christ it is His body and His blood.
People do not need to over-think this, they simply need to consult the plain words of their Savior.
What you’re saying is TU speaks in terms of theologians, and while the Church needs that, for you, me and Bill, the simple words of Christ suffice. “This is my body”, “This
is my blood”. Indeed, we agree.
Jon
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Thought so! Whew!
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BILL_PICK53
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QUOTE=MelanieAnne;6640985
How many time must Jesus say some thin g B4 it is not a Smybol,I think it was obout 6 times
How many time must Jesus say some thin g B4 it is not a Smybol,I think it was obout 6 times
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Ruthie_again
Guest
I stopped reading the dissertation at the beginning, because - as so many do - the writer did not include 1 Cor 11: 27 and 29.
People can dispute the Real Presence all they want, but to believe it’s merely a symbol, they have to ignore both those verses, and Jn 6: 25-69.
Yes, there are traditions and symbols surrounding the cup. It doesn’t matter; what matters is the contents of the cup. Paul didn’t say “You are profaning the Lord.” He specifically said “…the body and blood of the Lord.”
He wants us to “take in” ALL of Him; not just His words. We must take in His body, broken on the Cross for us, and His blood that dripped in the dust on the road to Golgotha.
Yes, it’s uncomfortable to think about eating human flesh, especially flesh from a sacrifice. Both are “taboo.” The Passion is uncomfortable, too. It’s much easier to follow a lord in shining armor, riding a war horse, who has conquered the bad guys. It’s much harder to follow someone who let Himself be killed, and in a shameful way. It’s especially hard because such a Lord asks us to conquer ourselves, not an outside enemy.
Ruthie, a praying sinner
People can dispute the Real Presence all they want, but to believe it’s merely a symbol, they have to ignore both those verses, and Jn 6: 25-69.
Yes, there are traditions and symbols surrounding the cup. It doesn’t matter; what matters is the contents of the cup. Paul didn’t say “You are profaning the Lord.” He specifically said “…the body and blood of the Lord.”
He wants us to “take in” ALL of Him; not just His words. We must take in His body, broken on the Cross for us, and His blood that dripped in the dust on the road to Golgotha.
Yes, it’s uncomfortable to think about eating human flesh, especially flesh from a sacrifice. Both are “taboo.” The Passion is uncomfortable, too. It’s much easier to follow a lord in shining armor, riding a war horse, who has conquered the bad guys. It’s much harder to follow someone who let Himself be killed, and in a shameful way. It’s especially hard because such a Lord asks us to conquer ourselves, not an outside enemy.
Ruthie, a praying sinner
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rev_kevin
Guest
In verse 26 Here Jesus criticized the people who followed him only for the prysical and temproal benefits and not for the satisfying of their spiritual hunger. True believers simply follow Jesus because they know he is the truth and his way is the way to live.
verse 28-29 means that many sincere seekers of God are puzzled about what he wants them to do. But Jesus’ reply is brief and simple. We must believe on him whom God has sent. Satisfying God does not come from work we do, but from whom we believe. The first step is accepting that Jesus is who he claims to be.
verse 35 See people eat bread to satisfy physical hunger and to sustain physical life. We can satify spirtitual hunger and sustain spirtitual life only by a right relationship with Jesus Christ. Thats why he calls himself the bread of life. But bread must be eaten to sustain life, and Christ must be invited into our daily walk to sustain spirtitual life.
Verses 37-38 Jesus did not work independently of God the Father, but in union with him. Jesus’ purpose was to do the will of God, noy to satisfy Jesus’ human desire.
verse 39 Jesus said he would not lose even one person whom the Father had given him. So anyone who makes a sincere commitment to believe in Jesus Christ as Savior is secure in God’s promise of eternal life. Christ will not let his people be overcome by Satan and lose their salvation.
verse 40 Those who put their faith in Christ will be resurrected from physical death to eternal life with God when Christ comes again.
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Verbum_Caro
Guest
rev_kevin,
That includes all us Catholics who hold and profess the Catholic faith and all it contains, right?
VC
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rev_kevin
Guest
continued
Verse 41 The religious leaders grumbled because they could not accept Jesus’ claim of divinity. The saw him only as a carpenter from Nazareth. The refused to believe that Jesus was God’s divine Son, and they could not tolerate his message.
Verse 44 God not people, plays the most active role in salvation. When someone chooses to believe in Jesus Christ as Savior, they do so in response to the urging of God’s Holy Spirit. God does the urging, then we decide whether or not to believe. No one can believe in Jesus withour God’s help.
Verse 45 Jesus was alluding to an OT view of the messianic Kingdom in which all people are taught directly by God. He has stressed the improtance of not merely hearing, but learning.
Verse 47 As used here believe means continues to believe. The reliious leaders frequently asked Jesus to prove to them why he was better than the prophets the already had. Jesus her referred to the manna that Moses had given their adcestors in the wilderness. This bread was physical and tempral. The people ate it, and it sustained them for a day. But they had to get more bread every day, and this bread could not keep them from dying. Jesus, who is much greater than Moses, offers himself as the sprititual bread from heaven that satisfies completely and leads to eternal life.
Verse 51 How can Jesus give us his flesh as bread to eat? To eat living bread means to accpet Christ into our lives and become united with him. We are united with Christ in 2 ways 1. By believing in his death, the sacrifice of his flesh, and resurrection. 2. By devoting ourselves to living as he requires, depending on his teaching for guidance and trusting in the Holy Spirit for power.
Verses 63 65 The Holy Spirit gives spirtual life; without the work of the Holy Spirit, we cannot even see our need for new life. Spiritual renewal begins and ends with God. He reveals truth to us, lives within us, and the enables us to respond to the truth.
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rev_kevin
Guest
continues again
Verse 66 Why did Jesus’ words cause many of his followers to desert him? They may have realized that he wasn’t going to be the conquering Messiah-King they expected. He refused to give in to their self-centered requests. He emphasized faith, not deeds. His teachings were difficult to understand, and some of his words wer offensive.
Verse 67-68 There is no middle ground with Jesus. Whe he asked the disciples if they would also leave, he was showing that they could either accept or reject him. Jesus was not trying to repel people with his teachings. He was simply telling the truth.The more people heard Jesus’ real message, the more they divided into 2 camps, the honest seekers who wanted ot understand more, and those who rejected Jesus because they didn’t like what they had heard.
After many of Jesus’ followers had deserted him, he asksed the 12 if they were also going to leave. Peter replied, to whom would we go? In his straightforward way, Peter answered for all of us, there is no other way. Jesus alone has the words of eternal life.
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rev_kevin
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The phrase speaks for itself. It includes ANYONE who makes a SINCERE COMMITMENT to BELIEVE. It does not say anything about any faith and what they contain. Its ANYONE who makes a GENUINE, REAL, SINCERE COMMITMENT to BELIEVE.
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Verbum_Caro
Guest
Thanks rev_kevin.
I don’t want to overly-simplify or make a caricature of your view – you don’t mean that it doesn’t matter what someone believes about Jesus, just that they believe in Him, do you?
VC
I don’t want to overly-simplify or make a caricature of your view – you don’t mean that it doesn’t matter what someone believes about Jesus, just that they believe in Him, do you?
VC
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rev_kevin
Guest
Now you’re nit picking at words. You know darn well what I mean by believe in him. Stop playing games.
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Verbum_Caro
Guest
rev_kevin,
I wasn’t nit picking. I wasn’t playing games. I was asking you a sincere question. I even made it clear that I didn’t want to over-simplify your view.
Regrets,
VC
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Cristian_B
Guest
Because it was obvious?
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Newbie2
Guest
Melanie, didn’t you know that Lutherans are “Catholics Light”
Verbum has a legitimate question. You need to actually read what people are saying, RK, you do this all the time, seemingly get offended when someone doesn’t understand your meaning. He is asking a legitimate question in a polite manner.
VC’s question seems to be, if I understand correctly (correct me if I’m wrong, VC
)Is it more important to just ***believe in Jesus ***or is it more important what we believe about Jesus?
It wasn’t clear to me either from your post what you meant: "The phrase speaks for itself. It includes ANYONE who makes a SINCERE COMMITMENT to BELIEVE. It does not say anything about any faith and what they contain. Its ANYONE who makes a GENUINE, REAL, SINCERE COMMITMENT to BELIEVE.
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MelanieAnne
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Newbie, I thought Episcopalians were “Catholics Light”. That is, until I went from being one to the other. Then I found out I was SO WRONG about that!Melanie, didn’t you know that Lutherans are “Catholics Light”
The only question is why did it take me so long? But I guess that doesn’t matter now!
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TriuneUnity
Guest
That would be a good advertisement. “Catholics Light: Less Guilt, More Satisfaction.”Melanie, didn’t you know that Lutherans are “Catholics Light”
LOL…sorry, could’nae resist.
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