Eucharist Is Magic?

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Was listening to H3 podcast (some kind of hipster thing.) one of the guests was claiming the idea of the Eucharist is actually based on magic.

I know scripture says Jesus said this is his body and do this in memory of Him so not sure why they think it’s magic.

My question is - has anyone heard this before? If you have, can you explain why it is thought to be and why it isn’t?

And sorry if this is in wrong category, wasn’t sure where to ask.

Thanks
 
Perhaps the conversion to his body from bread and his miracles of water to wine coincide in the mind of the podcaster?
 
Well, that depends on how you define magic. For much of history, magic has been used to denote “the other.” The Church has used it to refer to attempts by men to obtain non-natural power over creation, to predict the future, to engage the help of demons.

The Eucharist and all the sacraments are acts of God, miracles, in a sense. We would distinguish this from unholy attempts to gain unnatural power over things.
 
Magic is humans attempting to harness supernatural forces to enact change in the world.

The Eucharist is God’s direct intervention. Yes, it comes when the priest says the words of consecration, but those words have no power in and of themselves, they are simply part of the ritual. The power to change is God’s, not the priest’s.

People who don’t understand God or the way He works in the world won’t be able to understand the difference.
 
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Never heard this before and it’s actually pretty out there.
Don’t know why they are saying this, but it just goes to show that you may need to be a bit more discriminating in your choice of podcasts. Perhaps try some Catholic podcasts instead…
 
I once heard that the words, “Hocus pocus,” often used by stage magicians, is a parody of the Latin words said by Catholic priests over the bread when they confect the Eucharist, “Hoc est corpus meum” (This is my body). (source)
 
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They don’t normally talk about religion.

It’s not useful for you to tell me that because I don’t live in a vacuum.
 
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Didn’t know that!!! About the hocus pocus!
 
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Not to hijack the thread, but a friend once asked me, “Do Catholics really have to have a “miracle” at each Mass?”

I sort of ignored the question, because I wasn’t interested in a debate.

But I don’t think we categorize the Eucharist as being a miraculous occurrence, do we? Maybe one person’s miracle is another person’s magic. To me, a miracle is an unexplained healing, or something like that.
 
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I have heard that said in a vague generality. Did the podcaster go into any explanation of a reason for the statement?
 
I will go back and see if I can find it again!
 
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Was listening to H3 podcast (some kind of hipster thing.) one of the guests was claiming the idea of the Eucharist is actually based on magic.

I know scripture says Jesus said this is his body and do this in memory of Him so not sure why they think it’s magic.

My question is - has anyone heard this before? If you have, can you explain why it is thought to be and why it isn’t?

And sorry if this is in wrong category, wasn’t sure where to ask.

Thanks
Not magic. It is a miracle. The wonderful conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the body, and the whole substance of the wine into the blood appear through a miracle to still be bread and wine.

Magic “is the attempt to work miracles not by the power of God, gratuitously communicated to man, but by the use of hidden forces beyond man’s control.”
Arendzen, J. (1911). Occult Art, Occultism. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11197b.htm
 
But I don’t think we categorize the Eucharist as being a miraculous occurrence, do we?
Technically, it is. Beyond just the fact that something changes in an unnatural way, it changes substantially without changing accidentally. All other known changes bring about a change of both substance and accident.

On the other hand, most miracles have a very visible, tangible way of knowing that they happened, and the Eucharist isn’t really tangible in the same sense. It’s a miracle but more for those with faith than those without.
 
As I remember the person talking on the show was trying to insinuate that the Eucharist was just another form of ancient ideas about “magical” things. But someone above said magic is when we try to change nature. In this case its God changing us. I like that!
 
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Not magic. It is a miracle. T
I dont believe so.
Transubstantiation is not a miracle in the strict sense of the word so how can it even be magic?

Miracles require unexpected sensible effects.
Transubstantiation is not evident to the senses therefore it does not meet the criterion required for it to be a miracle.
Aquinas says as much…though pious authors still use the word in a spiritual sense.
 
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Yes, I have had some people tell me that, it was one of our anti-Catholic separated brethren. Such a statement is blasphemy.
 
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Vico:
Not magic. It is a miracle. T
I dont believe so.
Transubstantiation is not a miracle in the strict sense of the word so how can it even be magic?

Miracles require unexpected sensible effects.
Transubstantiation is not evident to the senses therefore it does not meet the criterion required for it to be a miracle.
Aquinas says as much…though pious authors still use the word in a spiritual sense.
I follow on the words of St. Thomas Aquinas:

Summa Theologiae > Third Part > Question 77 > Article 4:
Reply to Objection 3. This corruption of species is not miraculous, but natural; nevertheless, it presupposes the miracle which is wrought in the consecration, namely, that those sacramental species retain without a subject, the same being as they had in a subject; just as a blind man, to whom sight is given miraculously, sees naturally.
Summa Theologiae > Third Part > Question 77 > Article 5:
However, since it does not seem reasonable to say that anything takes place miraculously in this sacrament, except in virtue of the consecration itself, which does not imply either creation or return of matter, it seems better to say that in the actual consecration it is miraculously bestowed on the dimensive quantity of the bread and wine to be the subject of subsequent forms.
 
Simple Google like “proof-texting” of a literally translated Latin text from Aquinas is not really enough to make the case that transubstantiation is a “miracle”.

Especially when today’s Catholic Theology at the same time clearly denies such a thing:
" Thus, e.g., the creation of the soul is not a miracle, for it takes place in the ordinary course of nature. Again, the justification of the sinner, the Eucharistic Presence, the sacramental effects, are not miracles for two reasons: they are beyond the grasp of the senses and they have place in the ordinary course of God’s supernatural Providence."
(Catholic Encyclopedia).
How do we explain this apparant contradiction?
It is rather simple, and the usual explanation in such cases.

The word “miracle” has changed its meaning over time not only in english but also in latin.

If we abide by the accepted modern theological definition of english “miracle” (requiring something extraordinary being perceived by the senses) then why do authors ancient and modern still apply this word to the Eucharist?

It is because the Latin word which is translated is ambiguous and in ancient time had at least two meanings. The classic meaning was “wondrous”, often interchangable with the Latin word for “Mystery”. Hence we classicly speak of the “Mysterium Fidei” after transubstantiation (let us proclaim the mystery of faith).

By the time of Aquinas when theological thought was becoming more rigorous and scientific Aquinas and others started using the Latin word in a stricter sense meaning extraordinary natural changes. So while transubstantiation is a wonder and a Mystery…in english it is not really a miracle - even though the old latin word for miracle could be used to describe all three meanings in ancient texts.

In english “miracle” is defined by most theologians and scientists as only possessing the above strict meaning of the old Latin word.

Which is why Aquinas, in his poorer english translations, is sometimes seen to use the word “miracle” to mean bother a “wonder” and a true miracle in the strict sense.

If we understand Aquinas’s system and definitional vocab we can be certain he cannot mean that transubstantiation is a “miracle” even when he is translated into english this way.

So Vico your quotes above are poorly translated, he really means “wonder” or “mystery”.
I accept that even Aquinas may have slipped up himself because there is evidence in his later works that he tried to correct his earlier works on this point.

Regardless, it is clear in current Catholic Theology (as opposed to the writings of pious mystical authors) that transubstantiation is not properly called a “miracle” in todays english meaning of that word. Traditionally it is called a Mystery in Roman Catholicism - as in Byzantium I believe.
 
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Regardless, it is clear in current Catholic Theology (as opposed to the writings of pious mystical authors) that transubstantiation is not properly called a “miracle” in todays english meaning of that word. Traditionally it is called a Mystery in Roman Catholicism - as in Byzantium I believe.
Fr. John Hardon, S.J.:
After consecration are the accidents of bread and wine, are the physical properties of bread and wine, rea1 physica1 properties on the altar after consecration? Yes, that’s the first miracle of the Real Presence. There are two miracles to the Real Presence. The first miracle is that you have real physical properties minus their substance. The first miracle of faith in the Eucharist is in the Real absence of the substance of bread and wine. You can taste, you can touch, you can feel but the substance is not there. … The first mystery is that we have accidents without their substance. The second mystery is we have physical properties without their visible sensibly perceptible manifestation.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Virtues/Virtues_006.htm
 
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