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fbl9
Guest
As a catholic i believe the changing of the bread and wine into the body and blood of our Lord is a miracle. Some do not believe this… is this belief correct or not?
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Caesar517
Guest
From Wikipedia:
I think transubstantiation qualifies.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
It’s kind of a pointless to poll on a dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church on a Catholic Forum…
I could only imagine that the definition of miracle including the expression “something wonderful” would only be objectionable to the Devil’s point of view. What we catholics call a miracle the devil sees as a much too regular occurrence, much too real and not so wonderful for him…
OK fess up - someone voted no. Did the 1) devil make you do it or 2) did you vote party line as a non-Catholic or 3) are you incompetent and pulled the wrong lever?
James
I could only imagine that the definition of miracle including the expression “something wonderful” would only be objectionable to the Devil’s point of view. What we catholics call a miracle the devil sees as a much too regular occurrence, much too real and not so wonderful for him…
OK fess up - someone voted no. Did the 1) devil make you do it or 2) did you vote party line as a non-Catholic or 3) are you incompetent and pulled the wrong lever?
James
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Caesar517
Guest
I bet making it a public poll would have had some effect on that.
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JimG
Guest
I didn’t vote, but I guess I would have to vote no.
A miracle is an event which seems to defy natural law, and is visible to onlookers. Examples would be the miracle of the Sun at Fatima, a sudden and unexplained healing at Lourdes, the Virgin’s picture being imprinted on Juan Diego’s cape at Guadalupe. All are remarkable events attributed to Divine action. And the onlookers saw what happened.
In the Eucharist, bread and wine becomes Jesus in his entirety. But nobody can see that happen. To all appearances, one can perceive no change. That’s because the accidents don’t change. And the accidents are everything that is perceptible to the senses.
It’s much more astonishing than a mere miracle.
(And if anyone wants to mention Eucharistic miracles–those are miracles–precisely because onlookers see a change. What happens in a normal Eucharist is much more remarkable, but not a miracle.)
A miracle is an event which seems to defy natural law, and is visible to onlookers. Examples would be the miracle of the Sun at Fatima, a sudden and unexplained healing at Lourdes, the Virgin’s picture being imprinted on Juan Diego’s cape at Guadalupe. All are remarkable events attributed to Divine action. And the onlookers saw what happened.
In the Eucharist, bread and wine becomes Jesus in his entirety. But nobody can see that happen. To all appearances, one can perceive no change. That’s because the accidents don’t change. And the accidents are everything that is perceptible to the senses.
It’s much more astonishing than a mere miracle.
(And if anyone wants to mention Eucharistic miracles–those are miracles–precisely because onlookers see a change. What happens in a normal Eucharist is much more remarkable, but not a miracle.)
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Mannyfit75
Guest
It is a miracle. Divine intervention is involved.
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fbl9
Guest
hi all… Central flames,the reason for this poll is i once stated my belief on this matter and was told that no the Eucharist is not a miracle and i needed to educate myself in this regard.and according to the poll i am guessing i am educated enough.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Oh, well I think you should have framed the poll a little differently then. There was really only one solid answer possible that best fit (a miracle) since the “no” implied one did not believe in real presence. This is a semantic test not a test of belief in real presence.
James
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
My personal opinion is no it’s not a miracle. A miracle would be something that defies explanation. To me the Eucharist makes perfect sense and has a clear explanation. It is a mystery however because we cannot fully understand it.
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Caesar517
Guest
Just thinking out loud here:
I think a mystery is something that defies [human] explanation and a miracle is something that was caused by divine intervention.
The only way we can really explain transubstantiation is “God did it”. We can say why God did it, but the how is beyond our grasp (does that count as a clear explanation?). To me, that is very similar to Jesus healing a blind man or raising someone from the dead. We may know the why, but never the how.
Hypothesis: all miracles are mysteries, but not all mysteries are miracles (the square/rectangle relationship).
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JimG
Guest
Let me put it this way. If a priest were being considered for canonization as a saint, the fact the he said Mass every day of his life, thereby effecting transubstantiation numerous times, would not count for any of the necessary miracles.
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myredeemerlives
Guest
I believe that it’s a miracle that God would sacrifice His son for us at all. We certainly don’t deserve it.
I don’t believe in the literal change into the literal flesh and blood of Jesus but I do believe that partaking in communion is a spiritual act instituted by Jesus so that we remember what He has done for us every time we partake in the bread and wine.
I don’t believe in the literal change into the literal flesh and blood of Jesus but I do believe that partaking in communion is a spiritual act instituted by Jesus so that we remember what He has done for us every time we partake in the bread and wine.
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fbl9
Guest
that’s a good point…i thought i read though that before one can be a canonnized saint there had to be a least two verifable miracles ,after the person’s natural death,due to the intercesion of this person.
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onetimeposter
Guest
Then every priest on the planet is just one proven miracle away from being declared a saint of the Church. 
After the consecration, it is still bread to every single person on earth who does not believe in the real presence.
How is that miraculous?
After the consecration, it is still bread to every single person on earth who does not believe in the real presence.
How is that miraculous?
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cargau
Guest
My understanding is that transubstantiation is not a miracle, it is a divine mystery. A miracle is typically associated with a medical cure or a one time change of events defying natural progressions.
I am not saying that the changing of bread and wine into our Lord’s body and blood does not qualify, but it is univerally intended by our Lord (in every instance) to give grace.
Wouldn’t any sacrament fall under this heading? Could we say that God’s mercy is a miracle in Confession? Or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in Baptism ot Confirmation?
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fbl9
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just because one doesn’t believe the fact remains that others do.just how many proven miracles within the cahtolic community are accepted by those outside of it?..take fatima for example,or Guadalope(sic)Then every priest on the planet is just one proven miracle away from being declared a saint of the Church.
After the consecration, it is still bread to every single person on earth who does not believe in the real presence.
How is that miraculous?
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onetimeposter
Guest
It does not change the fact that there is no way to prove that transubstantiation takes place, but every way to prove that no change takes place.
If I declare that I have turned my car into a tree…can I then claim it is a miracle, even though my car still looks like a car and hold all of the resemblance of a car?
To me it is a tree…to you it is a car.
How can I claim that my car miraculously turned into a tree…when it still remains a car?
If I declare that I have turned my car into a tree…can I then claim it is a miracle, even though my car still looks like a car and hold all of the resemblance of a car?
To me it is a tree…to you it is a car.
How can I claim that my car miraculously turned into a tree…when it still remains a car?
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fbl9
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hi OTP ever hear of the Eucharist miracles in Laconi,i think that’s how it’s spelt,these are proven miracles…your miracle is only believed by you with not a thing to back it up.in regards to the Eucharist what Mannyfit75 said “Lord help my unbelief”…i noticed you didn’t tacle the other question i put forth,is it cause you don’t beleive in those other miracles too.
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onetimeposter
Guest
Let us suppose that this miracle is true and there is no debate at all.
So, one miracle means that the thousands of daily consecrations are miracles?
No.
If someone is miraculously healed from cancer, that does not mean that everyone is to be considered miraculously healed from cancer…but it is to be looked at on and individual basis.
By the way (The Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano) is the name.
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RyanL
Guest
I voted “no”, and in support I offer St. Thomas Aquinas:
(ST, I-105, art 7)
Since the effect is not “manifest” (what with the change of substance not being observable and all), I’d have to say that, like God’s justification of the righteous, transubstantiation is not, properly speaking, a miracle – at least according to the Thomistic view.
God Bless,
RyanL
The Angelic Doctor said:
(ST, I-105, art 7)
Since the effect is not “manifest” (what with the change of substance not being observable and all), I’d have to say that, like God’s justification of the righteous, transubstantiation is not, properly speaking, a miracle – at least according to the Thomistic view.
God Bless,
RyanL
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