Eucharist - necessary for salvation?

[Catholic_Mike]

I’m sure you all know that part in John 6. “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.”

What does it mean to have “life within you.” Does that mean being in a state of grace? And if so… well, my understanding was that baptism itself does that, doesn’t it? Confession can take away any sins after that. So, what does the Church teach about the necessity or lack of necessity of the Eucharist?

 

[jpjd]

So, what does the Church teach about the necessity or lack of necessity of the Eucharist?

In the 6 precepts of the Church, this is addressed:

CCC 2042: “The third precept (“You shall humbly receive your Creator in Holy Communion at least during the Easter season.”) guarantees as a minimum the reception of the Lord’s Body and Blood in connection with the Paschal feasts, the origin and center of the Christian liturgy.”

We are required to receive only once a year at Easter, but we are of course encouraged to receive as often as possible.

What the Eucharist does is strengthen the grace that is already in our soul. Remember, we must be free from mortal sin in order to receive the Eucharist, which means we would already have grace in our soul. The Eucharist strengthens the grace that is there, helps us grow in the Body of Christ. Christ is in us and we are in Christ.

 

[cjaubert]

If one NEVER receives the Eucharist, does that PREVENT him/her from going to heaven?

 

[thistle]

If one NEVER receives the Eucharist, does that PREVENT him/her from going to heaven?

What prevents anyone going to Heaven is rejecting God’s love by committing a mortal sin which remains unrepented.

We are obliged to receive at least once a year (during the Easter period) and if we don’t its a grave act, and if we know its a grave act and deliberately do not receive then that is a mortal sin.

 

[jpjd]

So, now that we have established Church teaching on this subject, I was hoping someone would address the bible verse itself because I have wondered about it too.

“Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.”

Jesus says “you do not have life within you” but the Church says that the Eucharist doesn’t give grace (but it strengthens grace). This passage seems to indicate that the Eucharist gives grace.

 

[AquinaSavio]

Jesus says “you do not have life within you” but the Church says that the Eucharist doesn’t give grace (but it strengthens grace). This passage seems to indicate that the Eucharist gives grace.

The Holy Eucharist does not give grace. It is a Sacrament of the Living, so it can only increase the sanctifying grace in your soul. Only Baptism and Penance can restore grace to a soul that has lost it.

 

[Brendan]

… but the Church says that the Eucharist doesn’t give grace (but it strengthens grace). This passage seems to indicate that the Eucharist gives grace.

No every single Sacrament bestows the Grace it signifies.

The Eucharist is the most Grace filled Sacrament, as it is Grace itself, the true living God.

To recieve God is to recieve Grace.

However, Baptism is the one Sacrament that is necessary for Salvation (specifically “the Grace of Baptism” is necessary for our Salvation). It is our ticket into the Eternal Wedding Feast of the Lamb. The Eucharist is the Feast itself.

The Eucharist, unlike any other Sacrament, is one that we partake of in Heaven as well. If one, like a Baptized Infant, has recieved Baptism, they will be given the Eucharist in Heaven.

 

[jpjd]

Yes, I completely understand about the sacraments and Church teachings. What I want clarification on is the bible verse.

Why does Jesus say “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.”

That makes it sound like you don’t get grace any other way, when the Church teaches that we (also) receive sanctifying grace from baptism and confession. In fact, we can’t receive grace from the Eucharist unless we already have grace, because my understanding is mortal sin (which destroys grace) does not dispose a person to receive grace from the Eucharist.

See what I’m trying to get at? We already have life within us when we properly receive the Eucharist. So how can it be that we don’t have life within us unless we eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood?

 

[Brendan]

Yes, I completely understand about the sacraments and Church teachings. What I want clarification on is the bible verse.

OK, I took your (and AquinaSalvo’s) statements as saying the the Eucharist does not give Grace. I just wanted to be clear that it does.

Why does Jesus say “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.”

That makes it sound like you don’t get grace any other way,

I don’t get that from the reading at all.

The Eucharist is Life itself. With Baptism, we gain God’s Indwelling within us.

There is a measuer of God’s Life within us, but it is not the Enternal Life that Christ is talking about here.

It is the ability to gain Enternal Life.

In the Eucharist, we recieve God and therefore recieve Life itself.
It remains as long as the Accidents remain, so it is temporary, but adds to the Grace within our soul (assuming we receive with no serious sin)

We participate in the Enternal Eucharist that the saints partake of in Heaven, and are more (but not completely) united to them in the Eucharist.

See what I’m trying to get at? We already have life within us when we properly receive the Eucharist. So how can it be that we don’t have life within us unless we eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood?

I think the root of the problem is a confusion between the indwelling of God in Salvic Grace (our ‘ticket’ into Heaven) and the Enternal Life OF Heaven.

 

[AquinaSavio]

OK, I took your (and AquinaSalvo’s) statements as saying the the Eucharist does not give Grace. I just wanted to be clear that it does.

I just meant that it does not restore grace to a dead soul. It increases the amount of grace that is already in our souls when we receive it.

 

[VociMike]

So, now that we have established Church teaching on this subject, I was hoping someone would address the bible verse itself because I have wondered about it too.

“Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.”

I think the answer is found in Christ’s exact words here.

So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Note that when Jesus is discussing the effects of not eating and drinking, He says “you”, but when He is discussing the effects of eating and drinking, He switches over to saying “he”.

Thus, if you (that is, those to whom the requirement has been revealed) do not eat and drink, then those who have rejected this teaching have no life in them.

While, if any one eats and drinks (worthily, as Paul clarifies later), they do have eternal life.

Now, both of these groups have something in common, which is that the requirement to eat and drink has been revealed to them. This leaves a third group, those to whom this requirement has not been revealed. This passage says nothing either positive or negative about them.

 

[simbagizmo]

I’m sure you all know that part in John 6. “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.”

What does it mean to have “life within you.” Does that mean being in a state of grace? And if so… well, my understanding was that baptism itself does that, doesn’t it? Confession can take away any sins after that. So, what does the Church teach about the necessity or lack of necessity of the Eucharist?

This passage has nothing to do with the Eucharist. This is pulled out of context altogether.

John 6:27
“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

This food he is talking about is not the Eucharist, but the Gospel message of Salvation. Jesus told the people to work for this food.

John 6:28-29
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Here people asked what to do to work for this food that gives eternal like. Jesus response is to believe Jesus. That will give the food for eternal life

John 6:30-33
30 So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
31 “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’”
32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
33 “For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”

Here Jesus again states that He is the bread, the Word that became flesh, that came down from heaven

John 6:34-35
34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

 

[simbagizmo]

John 6:34-35
34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

Jesus, the Word that became flesh, states that he is the bread of life and he who comes and believes

John 6:41
41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”

John 6:47-48
47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
48 "I am the bread of life.
49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50 "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

Jesus again states that he is the bread and he who believes has eternal life. Jesus, the Word that became flesh, states “eats this bread will live forever”. This is still about believing as in the past verses. The he states that the “bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh”. This is a reference to his death for our salvation.

John 6:52-58
52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
58 “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

Here the Jews did not understand the metaphore. Eternal life in the context of this passage as stated several times is belief in Jesus, the Word became flesh. The “eats my flesh and drink my blood” is about belief in Jesus as savior and Lord for eternal life, as he stated all along in these passages.

 

[VociMike]

Eternal life in the context of this passage as stated several times is belief in Jesus, the Word became flesh. The “eats my flesh and drink my blood” is about belief in Jesus as savior and Lord for eternal life, as he stated all along in these passages.

And to think that the entire Church, every last bishop and priest and theologian and parish, got it wrong for 1500 years.

Oh, and if the Apostles did not teach the Real Presence, can you document when the heresy of the Real Presence first entered the Church, and how it spread and finally took over the entire Church, from the Middle East to the British Isles? Because we can’t seem to find a shred of evidence for such a claim.

 

[simbagizmo]

And to think that the entire Church, every last bishop and priest and theologian and parish, got it wrong for 1500 years.

Oh, and if the Apostles did not teach the Real Presence, can you document when the heresy of the Real Presence first entered the Church, and how it spread and finally took over the entire Church, from the Middle East to the British Isles? Because we can’t seem to find a shred of evidence for such a claim.

No need to get personal. I am just quoting and stepping through the scripture. In particular look at John 6:34-35. This is again pretty clear about what Jesus is talking about in this entire passage. If I have errored please help me, instead of attacking.

 

[VociMike]

No need to get personal. I am just quoting and stepping through the scripture. In particular look at John 6:34-35. This is again pretty clear about what Jesus is talking about in this entire passage. If I have errored please help me, instead of attacking.

There was nothing personal in my reply. I merely pointed out that the entire Church for 1500 years understood something exactly opposite from what you propose, and then I asked for the evidence of when the entire Church abandoned the true symbolic teaching of the Apostles (according to your theory) and replaced that truth with the heresy of the Real Presence. Such an upheaval within the Church would surely be easy to document.

As for John 6:34-35, that is certainly no argument against the Real Presence:

• They said to him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
  Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.”

Part of “believes in me” is to believe Christ when He says “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.” Part of “believes in me” is to believe that “the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” And part of “believes in me” is to believe Christ when He held up bread and said “this is my body” and when He held up wine and said “this is my blood”. That is true belief. Many could not or would not believe Christ on that day, and many cannot or will not believe Him today.

Notice also that Christ didn’t hold up scriptures and say “this is my body,” which would have been the properly symbolic act according to the Protestant theory of bread-as-Christ’s-words.*

 

[simbagizmo]

There was nothing personal in my reply. I merely pointed out that the entire Church for 1500 years understood something exactly opposite from what you propose, and then I asked for the evidence of when the entire Church abandoned the true symbolic teaching of the Apostles (according to your theory) and replaced that truth with the heresy of the Real Presence. Such an upheaval within the Church would surely be easy to document.

As for John 6:34-35, that is certainly no argument against the Real Presence:

• They said to him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
  Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.”

Part of “believes in me” is to believe Christ when He says “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood*, you have no life in you.” Part of “believes in me” is to believe that “the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” And part of “believes in me” is to believe Christ when He held up bread and said “this is my body” and when He held up wine and said “this is my blood”. That is true belief. Many could not or would not believe Christ on that day, and many cannot or will not believe Him today.

Notice also that Christ didn’t hold up scriptures and say “this is my body,” which would have been the properly symbolic act according to the Protestant theory of bread-as-Christ’s-words.

Maybe we are misunderstanding each other. I was not using this verse to indicate whether there is or is not the Real Presense in the Eucharist. I brought this up stating that this passage is not talking about the Eucharist celebration at all, but talking about eternal life is in those who believe in Jesus. And how the Jews in this passage did not understand Jesus when he talked about eating his flesh and drinking his blood was a metaphor for believing in Him. The same happened when Jesus talked about being born again, Nicodemus was taking this literally and did not understand the metaphor.

 

[Brendan]

I brought this up stating that this passage is not talking about the Eucharist celebration at all, but talking about eternal life is in those who believe in Jesus. And how the Jews in this passage did not understand Jesus when he talked about eating his flesh and drinking his blood was a metaphor for believing in Him. The same happened when Jesus talked about being born again, Nicodemus was taking this literally and did not understand the metaphor.

No, it IS talking about the Eucharist, in exactly the same way that Christ talked about the Sacrament of Baptism when He discussed being 'born again by water and the Spirit"

What the Jews did not understand was the Sacramental Nature of the New Covenant. That the entire salvation history of the Jews was a prefigurement of the Sacraments that were to come.

 

[simbagizmo]

Brendan,
We may just have to disagree on this, but I will try to explain why John 6 is not talking about the Eucharist. In John 4, Jesus meets the Samaritan woman at the well. She is getting water for drinking. Jesus, uses this opportunity to teach the woman by using her immediate need, water, as a metaphor to salvation. He says to her, “Give me a drink” (John 4:7). She questions him

“If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” (John 4:10)

“Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life. (John 4:13-14)”

Jesus has turned the conversation from getting water to salvation, “living water”, that he gives. Water here is a metaphor, there is no literal water somewhere that gives eternal life. He is talking about believing in Him as the living water. And that belief in Him is salvation.

After this, Jesus’s disciples came to him and urged him to eat. Obviously he has not eaten in a while.

But He said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.”
So the disciples were saying to one another, “No one brought Him anything to eat, did he?”
Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.
"Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest.
(John 4:32-35)

Again Jesus is using the immediate need, in this case food, to teach the salvation message. A metaphor this time with food. The harvest and the white fields is another metaphor indicating the approach of the Sumaritans after the woman at the well told them of Jesus.

John 5 again Jesus is teach that eternal life is believing in him.

"You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.(John 5:38-40)

Remebering John stated that Jesus is the Word became flesh, Jesus again is teaching that belief in Him is eternal life. He states that the Jews search Scripture for eternal life, but they do not find it, because they reject the living Word, Jesus.

John 6, Jesus feeds the Jews with the miracle of the 5 loaves and 2 fish. After all have eaten, Jesus left. The Jews then searched and found Him. Jesus then states

"Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
Joh 6:27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”(John 6:26-27)

Jesus knows these people where searching for him for more food to each. And just as Jesus told the Sumaritan women,

“Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”(John 4:13-14)

Jesus tell the Jews to not work for food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life. Jesus again is using the immediate need as a metaphor for the salvation message which is believing in Him.

What is telling with these two stories is the response from the audience is the same. After Jesus tells the woman about the living water, she states “Sir, give me this water”. The Jews about the living bread give the exact same response, “Lord, always give us this bread.” Jesus knows how to reach the people with the message of salvation by tieing it to their immediate need. I think this is great. The living bread and living water is belief is Jesus.

When Jesus says that he is the bread of life and to eat his body and drink his blood, for eternal life, this again is the same metaphor of food representing salvation. The entire topic of his teaching began because the Jews were hungry and wanted more bread from him. He ties this to receiving Jesus, believing in Him, for the food that never parishes.

After Jesus made this statement, the Jews again took it literally and was repulsed by it.
Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”(John 6:52)

Even some of his disciples took this literally and walked away from Him

Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”(John 6:60)

 

[simbagizmo]

But Jesus then begins the clarify the meaning of this teaching by stating

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.(John 6:63)

Here he states that it is the Spirit that gives life, and it is the words, not his flesh, that are the spirit and life.

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
“We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”(John 6:68-69)

Peter gets it and confirms the true message, that it is the words and belief in Jesus that is the path to eternal life.

Sorry this is so long, but I really wanted to try and explain this. This who passage John 4-6 and going about the same topic, believe in Jesus, not about the Eucharist.