Eucharist Questions

[Sherlock]

Oilman,

Though others have already given you an answer, I heard something at an apologetics conference this weekend, though it doesn’t bear directly on your question, was an interesting thought about the Eucharist. I’m just throwing it out there, for what it’s worth:

The speaker pointed out that though some may object to the idea of the Real Presence because it looks and tastes like bread and wine, the same could have said by those who met Jesus in person: here’s this sweaty and dirty guy (hey, it’s hot and dusty) who looks and smells just like an ordinary man, and we’re supposed to believe that he’s the Creator of the universe??

 

[kleary]

Sherlock:

Oilman,…The speaker pointed out that though some may object to the idea of the Real Presence because it looks and tastes like bread and wine, the same could have said by those who met Jesus in person: here’s this sweaty and dirty guy (hey, it’s hot and dusty) who looks and smells just like an ordinary man, and we’re supposed to believe that he’s the Creator of the universe??

I quoted this last post to simply show something that I learned the other day.

Some church fathers in the past have speculated that Lucifer rebelled against God for the same reason. That God, the Almighty Spirit who created everything out of nothing would become this sweaty and dirty guy who looks and smells like ordinary man in order to redeem man. They say that Satan rebelled when God revealed this fact to him and all the angels, that He would become man to redeem mankind from sin.

Ken

 

[AquinasXVI]

The humility, patience, ignominy, percieved passivity of Christ in the accidents of the bread and the wine are revelations of how Christ wants to come to us—humble, unassuming, silent…don’t let any of this fool you for thinking that it is not omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.

If we can accept the author and maker of all things seen and unseen “compress” Himself to become a new born infant lying on a trough feeder, we should not be surprised by His imagination and again “reconfigure” himself for us so we can “handle” and consume Him in the Holy Eucharist.

Basically, if we can accept the real presence of the Incarnation, the seemingly drastic transubstantiation should be just as exciting and amazing to us.

in XT.

 

[oilman]

I will say this much…when it comes to God, anything is plausible. I’m just not at the same place you all are at. I hope the Lord gives me clarity on this but in the meantime, I will not dismiss the Catholic belief on this unless or until I am convinced that it is wrong. I know that Jesus made the connection of the bread and wine to the Old Testament manna and blood sacrifice, but I am unclear as to the need to physically eat the sacrifice via the Eucharist. Where the Israelites required to eat of the sacrifice in Old Testament times? This is part of where I am 'hung up" on just a symbol vs. actual presence. I hope I am making sense in my probing! Help me out if you can.

 

[AquinasXVI]

Oilman:

The old covenant of Moses ‘trained’ the Jewish people to really eat the sacrificial lamb in the physical sense. This is a preparation of the Last Supper-the eating of the Lamb of God. The quantum leap in faith that Christ demanded for the New and Everlasting Covenant is prepared by centuries of eating the passover lamb.

As to why we have to physically eat the Savior, because man is a spiritual body. To receive God spiritually is essential and good…but our bodies is the other half of our being and also need this union…thus Christ provides this for us to in his bottomless generosity.

God bless your search. May God reveal his mysteries to all of us.

in XT.

 

[RobNY]

oilman:

I will say this much…when it comes to God, anything is plausible. I’m just not at the same place you all are at. I hope the Lord gives me clarity on this but in the meantime, I will not dismiss the Catholic belief on this unless or until I am convinced that it is wrong. I know that Jesus made the connection of the bread and wine to the Old Testament manna and blood sacrifice, but I am unclear as to the need to physically eat the sacrifice via the Eucharist. Where the Israelites required to eat of the sacrifice in Old Testament times? This is part of where I am 'hung up" on just a symbol vs. actual presence. I hope I am making sense in my probing! Help me out if you can.

Maybe this link will help you a bit? (It likes talking about prefigurment of all aspects of the Eucharist, it might help.)

Jesus was pre-figured in the original Passover, when God commanded that Moses tell the Israelites, Ex 12:5-6 “Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male … the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs in the evening,” as Jesus the Lamb of God was crucified in dim light. Mt 27:45 God commanded, Ex 12:8 “They shall eat the flesh that night,” and told Moses, Ex 12:12 “I will smite all the first-born in the land of Egypt.” But He promised, Ex 12:13 “The blood shall be a sign for you … when I see the blood, I will pass over you.”

The eating of the sacrificial lamb parallels between the Passover and that of the Eucharist.

Other than that, perhaps checking the Catholic encyclopedia on Sacrifice, and this comprehensive collection of links at phatmass will help. When in doubt, keep reading.

 

[katewithak]

oilman:

I will say this much…when it comes to God, anything is plausible. I’m just not at the same place you all are at. I hope the Lord gives me clarity on this but in the meantime, I will not dismiss the Catholic belief on this unless or until I am convinced that it is wrong. I know that Jesus made the connection of the bread and wine to the Old Testament manna and blood sacrifice, but I am unclear as to the need to physically eat the sacrifice via the Eucharist. Where the Israelites required to eat of the sacrifice in Old Testament times? This is part of where I am 'hung up" on just a symbol vs. actual presence. I hope I am making sense in my probing! Help me out if you can.

Maybe this will help. Your body (physical) is a temple for the Holy Spirit (spiritual). The continual Sacrifice on the Altar, along with the Word, feeds that Spirit. It is an everlasting Covenant, therefore an everlasting Sacrifice. The Spiritual nourishment is necessary in order to fully “digest” the Word. We are fed all of these things. Christ’s words, Christ’s bodies. What came before, in the Old Testament, in the Passover, was the prophecy and our preparation for the greater Passover, the Eucharist. We are not just physical bodies made up of matter, we are spiritual bodies as well.

 

[NonDenom]

you think it’s hard to imagine Jesus in the bread and before them
at the same time… imagine this, He is in the host i consume,
wholly… not part of Him, but Jesus, completely… and in the host
the person behind and before me takes… it’s only
possible because He is God…

Jesus will come back ‘bodily’ just as he left bodily, this is the
2nd comming… He can and does come back anytime as
often as He wishes spiritually…

Matthew 18:
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

and remember, this is only my feeble attempt to explain
mysteries that are unexplainable… lol

Hi John
Are you saying that Jesus is only present in the Eucharist spiritually? This is one area that I question my beliefs and am trying to understand the Eucharist better. Thanks.

 

[katewithak]

NonDenom:

Hi John
Are you saying that Jesus is only present in the Eucharist spiritually? This is one area that I question my beliefs and am trying to understand the Eucharist better. Thanks.

No, Jesus is not present there only spiritually. His physical presence is with the priest.

 

[scylla]

I believe when people are saying that He comes back spiritually when 2 or 3 are together Christ is with us, this is something we share with our separated brothers and sisters in Christ.

Now, in the Eucharist, He comes truly, really, He is present in the Eucharist. There is a true presence not just a spiritual presence.
He is with us and that is why we have such respect for the Eucharist because He really is there with us in the same room. We need to see with the eyes of faith. This is why it is hard to believe and it was rejected by some a few hundred years ago. It is a “hard saying.”

When He comes back at the end of time He will come back in His glorified Body for all to see.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[NonDenom]

No, Jesus is not present there only spiritually. His physical presence is with the priest.

Hi
So the physical presence of Jesus is with the Priest, and his spiritual presence is with the bread?

 

[katewithak]

NonDenom:

Hi
So the physical presence of Jesus is with the Priest, and his spiritual presence is with the bread?

His spiritual presence is also with the priest. And with the Bread and wine. He is also physically present there as well. It is a Real Presence.

 

[Sherlock]

katewithak:

His spiritual presence is also with the priest. And with the Bread and wine. He is also physically present there as well. It is a Real Presence.

It would be better to say that it is a sacramental presence—it IS what it signifies. It is a Real Presence, however I don’t think it’s quite accurate to say that Jesus is there “physically”—that is, Jesus as He appeared to His companions

 

[katewithak]

Sherlock:

It would be better to say that it is a sacramental presence—it IS what it signifies. It is a Real Presence, however I don’t think it’s quite accurate to say that Jesus is there “physically”—that is, Jesus as He appeared to His companions

Now which companions are you talking about? The ones He had before He was crucified or the ones He appeared to on the road to Emmaus who did not recognize Him? For He was definately physically present to those who did not recognize Him as well, same as to day.

 

[NonDenom]

His spiritual presence is also with the priest. And with the Bread and wine. He is also physically present there as well. It is a Real Presence.

Hi
I will try to be more difinitive in my question, is Jesus both physicaly and spiritualy present in both the bread and the wine?
Are you eating the physical, the spiritual or both when eating the bread?.

 

[RobNY]

NonDenom:

Hi
I will try to be more difinitive in my question, is Jesus both physicaly and spiritualy present in both the bread and the wine?
Are you eating the physical, the spiritual or both when eating the bread?.

The popular Catholic expression is, receiving Christ wholly, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

Again, I caution against the usage of the term physically to describe the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, as Sherlock did-- truly, really and substantially, and also, sacramentally.

-Rob

 

[Sherlock]

katewithak:

Now which companions are you talking about? The ones He had before He was crucified or the ones He appeared to on the road to Emmaus who did not recognize Him? For He was definately physically present to those who did not recognize Him as well, same as to day.

Both sets of companions saw Jesus physically present: that is, they saw a 33-year old male of a certain height and build, with his own unique facial features, fingerprints, and other distinguishing marks. When you see the Eucharist, you are NOT seeing this. Jesus is sacramentally present (and it is a REAL Presence, not symbolic) but to say that Jesus is “physically present” implies that you are seeing the above, that is, the man Jesus. Now, please understand—I am NOT denying the Real Presence! This came up in a discussion with my very, very orthodox parish priest. The person in charge of Perpetual Adoration had had an item in the bulletin that mentioned the “physical presence” of Jesus in the Eucharist. Several parishioners brought this to Father’s attention and he had to correct it. As Rob said, Jesus is truly, really and substantially present in the Blessed Sacrament. “Physical presence” isn’t quite accurate, though I know what you’re trying to say (or at least I think I do).

 

[katewithak]

Sherlock:

Both sets of companions saw Jesus physically present: that is, they saw a 33-year old male of a certain height and build, with his own unique facial features, fingerprints, and other distinguishing marks. When you see the Eucharist, you are NOT seeing this. Jesus is sacramentally present (and it is a REAL Presence, not symbolic) but to say that Jesus is “physically present” implies that you are seeing the above, that is, the man Jesus. Now, please understand—I am NOT denying the Real Presence! This came up in a discussion with my very, very orthodox parish priest. The person in charge of Perpetual Adoration had had an item in the bulletin that mentioned the “physical presence” of Jesus in the Eucharist. Several parishioners brought this to Father’s attention and he had to correct it. As Rob said, Jesus is truly, really and substantially present in the Blessed Sacrament. “Physical presence” isn’t quite accurate, though I know what you’re trying to say (or at least I think I do).

It is my understanding that Christ is physically present in the person of the priest. That this is a character reserved to priests on the altar and in the Confessional. And the priest is a man. Am I incorrect?

 

[Sherlock]

katewithak:

It is my understanding that Christ is physically present in the person of the priest. That this is a character reserved to priests on the altar and in the Confessional. And the priest is a man. Am I incorrect?

When consecrating the Eucharist, yes, the priest is acting “in persona Christi”. But the “Real Presence” usually refers to the Host, not the act. And when you say that Jesus is “physically present”, you are suggesting that not just any man, any priest, but the distinctive, unique man Jesus is physically present. It’s best to stick to accepted terms that aren’t misleading.

 

[oilman]

Ok, forgive me if I appear slow but let me just try to understand this. Christ is present in the Eucharist in some mystical way but in a different way than the “with 2 or 3, He is in the midst of…” At no time does the bread and wine actually take on the physical properties of flesh and blood as we humanly perceive flesh and blood. Is this an accurate statement according to Catholic belief?