Eucharist via one species...

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AlexV said:
Are you subject to the pope? If not, you’re in a state of schism from the Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church.

Do you confess the dogmas of Papal Infallibility and the Immaculate Conception? If not, you’re a heretic in the strict and objective sense.
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Yes, I know that. That’s why it is such a puzzle that the Vatican authorises communion for us heretics? Such a thought shocks the Orthodox to the bottom of their boots, but Catholic clergy will commune heretics without a second thought.

I’ve been at a Catholic funeral where a rather nominal Orthodox person went up for communion and the Catholic priest insisted on dipping the host in the chalice because “that’s the way you Orthodox do it.”
 
Walking_Home said:
I see–thankyou for the explanation. But still—if the situation had occured in the prison camps—where not enough of our Lord’s blood would be available----would the priest offer Holy Communion via the Bread only.
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That would be the priest’s call but I am sure he would know exactly how many communicants he would have that night in the camp (because he had to hear each confession) and he would cut the Lamb into the exact number of pieces and touch each with a little of the precious Blood.

In a normal parish situation, if I would not have enough consecrated Bread in the Chalice with the Wine on a Sunday, I could not go on communing people with just the Blood. I would have to stop the communion line and quckly consecrate some more Bread or maybe take some from the tabernacle and place it in the Chalice.
 
AlexV said:
Perhaps you should start a new forum: Quibbles I Have With Rome.
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You stated that the Orthodox are “heretics in the strict and objective sense” and I was asking how that can be so when Catholic clergy are authorised by Rome to give the Orthodox communion. I would not see my question as a quibble. In fact it is pretty important in light of the current positive Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.
 
Fr_Ambrose said:
That would be the priest’s call but I am sure he would know exactly how many communicants he would have that night in the camp (because he had to hear each confession) and he would cut the Lamb into the exact number of pieces and touch each with a little of the precious Blood.

In a normal parish situation, if I would not have enough consecrated Bread in the Chalice with the Wine on a Sunday, I could not go on communing people with just the Blood. I would have to stop the communion line and quckly consecrate some more Bread or maybe take some from the tabernacle and place it in the Chalice.
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You can consecrate the Bread alone–without having to consecrate more wine.
 
Fr_Ambrose said:
Dear Walkinghome, I am not sure if that is question to me or if you are telling me that this is what Catholics do.

Quote=Fr Ambrose
I would have to stop the communion line and quckly consecrate some more Bread or maybe take some from the tabernacle and place it in the Chalice.
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I was asking —if you consecrate the Bread alone–without consecrating the Wine. From the way you have it stated above—I am not sure if it meant consecrating only the bread–to continue with communion.
 
Walking_Home said:
I was asking —if you consecrate the Bread alone–without consecrating the Wine. From the way you have it stated above—I am not sure if it meant consecrating only the bread–to continue with communion.
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Truth to tell… we are just speculating really.

The fact is that a priest always has a fairly good idea of how much he will need, especially in one of the Slavic Churches where each communicant must go to confession before communion.

He also has enough consecrated Bread and Wine in the Chalice to be able to communicate several hundred people if he needs to. It is no problem to break the Bread down into smaller and smaller pieces, cutting through it with the Spoon. Even if another 100 people arrive unexpectedly at communion time (can’t imagine that happening!) he can divide the Bread easily. It has been immersed in the Wine for 10 minutes or so and is really soft at this time…
 
Fr_Ambrose said:
Cardinal Robert Bellarmine is a reknowned theologian and Catholic Saint. He is one of the small band of “Doctors of the Church.” He was also the head of the Inquisition and was the man in charge when Galileo was tried by the Inquisition.
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Gratias Father… I was not pleased with the trial of Galileo to be honest. The Inquisition and the rigid handling of the Reconquista is not my favorite part of history to be frank.

Perhaps their theology was unmared by their lack of charity and confidence in God but honestly I cannot speak on such matters due to my lack of familiarity with the subject.
Aware of the fact?! LOL! I am ancient! I was born long before Vatican II and I was raised in the Catholic school system. I knew nothing but the Tridentine Mass. I must have been to thousands of them. 😃
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I meant no disrespect Father as I had no idea as to your age or your knowledge of the Tridentine Mass but getting back to the subject inquiry at hand knowing, as you do, that the Priest consecrates both signs during the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist do you agree that Christ’s Divinity is undivided between the two species and that given the possibility of such circumstances it might be within the power of the Church to exercise economia by offering only one of the two species to the congregation?

gratia et pax vobiscum
 
st_bernard said:
do you agree that… it might be within the power of the Church to exercise economia by offering only one of the two species to the congregation?
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No, the Church cannot be disobedient to her head. I see that in the beginning of this thread you are arguing mightily for both species. Have you changed your mind about this?
 
Fr_Ambrose said:
No, the Church cannot be disobedient to her head.
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Gratia et pax vobiscum,

Well I guess the rigidity of your akrivia blinds you to the possibility of economia in this situation. Disappointing and sobering but I can appreciate your candor.

So could you give me an example of valid economia which is or has been acceptable in the Orthodox Church with regard to the canons of the Sacraments?

Our Lord and Saviour said: ‘Except ye be born of water and spirit…’ and yet I hear Orthodox Priests accepting Catholic Converts via Chrismation without an valid Baptism via immersion…

How is this possible with the apparent rigidity of Orthodox obedience to our Lord and Saviour? 😉

Gratias
 
st_bernard said:
Gratia et pax vobiscum,

Well I guess the rigidity of your akrivia blinds you to the possibility of economia in this situation. Disappointing and sobering but I can appreciate your candor.

So could you give me an example of valid economia which is or has been acceptable in the Orthodox Church with regard to the canons of the Sacraments?

Our Lord and Saviour said: ‘Except ye be born of water and spirit…’ and yet I hear Orthodox Priests accepting Catholic Converts via Chrismation within an valid Baptism via immersion…

How is this possible with the apparent rigidity of Orthodox obedience to our Lord and Saviour? 😉

Gratias
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We’re getting too way off topic. But you could open a thread in the Eastern Christianity section? Kind of disappointing that no Eastern Catholics are contributing here about the one species question.
 
Fr_Ambrose said:
I see that in the beginning of this thread you are arguing mightily for both species. Have you changed your mind about this?
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Gratia et pax vobiscum,

No, absolutely not but, as I see it, what I have been arguing is the Norm of the Sacrament not the ‘validity’ of her exercise of economia, which is what I recognize the Eucharist under one species to be. Valid, efficacation but not the fuller sign of Sacrament offered under two species.

I am sure, you and I, would agree on the ‘fuller sign of the two species’ in the Norm of the Sacrament but it appears we disagree on the Church’s authority to exercise economia in it’s offering of only one of the two species.

I must say that I find this a bit surprising as I’ve heard of Orthodox doing as much with offering, infants and laity unable to take solids, only partaking of the Blood. Putting the rationale of the co-mingling aside it does appear to be a practice that happens from time to time and no one questions the efficacy of just one species in such cases.

It appears, the systematic nature, of the exercise of economia may well be the real issue but you posts fail to confirm such conjecture.

Gratias
 
st_bernard said:
I must say that I find this a bit surprising as I’ve heard of Orthodox doing as much with offering, infants and laity unable to take solids, only partaking of the Blood. Putting the rationale of the co-mingling aside it does appear to be a practice that happens from time to time and no one questions the efficacy of just one species in such cases.
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But you cannot put aside the conmingling!

After his own communion the priest cuts up the Lamb into a large number of small pieces, enough for all the known communicants and a bit more for any unexpected communicants. These are dropped into the Blood in the Chalice about 10 minutes before the people’s communion. The wine is already very hot at this point because boiling water has been poured into it. On a cold morning in church you can see steam from the chalice.

The result is that the Bread softens immediately and begins both to expand and to dissolve into the Wine. A myriad of bread particles are released into the wine. Both species become intermingled.

When a baby refuses to take any Bread and Wine from the Spoon, it is not difficult to slip him just some of the Wine on the Spoon. Because of the conmingling he gets both species.

Believe me, I’ve been doing this for 30 years and it’s true. 🙂
 
st_bernard said:
Gratia et pax vobiscum,
It appears, the systematic nature, of the exercise of economia may well be the real issue but you posts fail to confirm such conjecture.
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Dear Bernard,

I just do not see any connection with any exercise of economia.

The priest cannot never ever, no, not ever, never, numquam, no way, offer the divine liturgy without having BOTH bread and wine.

Since the bread and wine MUST be already there, why should there be any need of economia when he has to commune the laity? He has bread. He has wine. Let him dispense them as the Lord would want.
 
Fr_Ambrose said:
But you cannot put aside the conmingling!

After his own communion the priest cuts up the Lamb into a large number of small pieces, enough for all the known communicants and a bit more for any unexpected communicants. These are dropped into the Blood in the Chalice about 10 minutes before the people’s communion. The wine is already very hot at this point because boiling water has been poured into it. On a cold morning in church you can see steam from the chalice.

The result is that the Bread softens immediately and begins both to expand and to dissolve into the Wine. A myriad of bread particles are released into the wine. Both species become intermingled.

When a baby refuses to take any Bread and Wine from the Spoon, it is not difficult to slip him just some of the Wine on the Spoon. Because of the conmingling he gets both species.

Believe me, I’ve been doing this for 30 years and it’s true. 🙂
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Gratia et pax vobiscum Father,

Your point is well taken but you appear to suggest that it is ‘necessary’ to partake of both species… Is this truth?

If so what is the Orthodox rationale for this teaching? Is it a demand for fuller or fullest ‘participation’ or is it ‘necessary’?

It’s been very edifying discussing this with you Father. Thank you very much.

Gratia
 
Fr_Ambrose said:
Dear Bernard,

I just do not see any no connection with any application of economia.

The priest cannot never ever, no, not ever, never, numquam, no way, offer the divine liturgy without having BOTH bread and wine.

Since the bread and wine MUST be already there, why should there be any need of economia when he has to commune the laity? He has bread. He has wine. Let him dispense them as the Lord would want.
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Gratia et pax vobiscum,

I envision St. Peter’s Square as an case for economia.

What is the largest attendance of an Orthodox Divine Liturgy to your memory father and how was it handled?

Gratia
 
st_bernard said:
Gratia et pax vobiscum Father,

Your point is well taken but you appear to suggest that it is ‘necessary’ to partake of both species… Is this truth?

If so what is the Orthodox rationale for this teaching? Is it a demand for fuller or fullest ‘participation’ or is it ‘necessary’?
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It is in obedience to our Lord who said: “Do this.”

I want to point out again that the Roman Catholic Church also “did this” for 1,500 years so it’s not as if Orthodoxy is introducing an innovation. It was once our shared tradition. And no, AlexV, please do not take that as a slam against your Church. It’s not. It’s merely to point out that we once had a glorious point of unity in a common apostolic practice, and it raises the question: if you did that for so many centuries, then why not return to the traditional ways now that the danger from these Ultraquists is over?
It’s been very edifying discussing this with you Father. Thank you very much.
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I have enjoyed it myself and you’ve made me stretch my mind and beat back the Alzheimer’s. 👍
 
Fr_Ambrose said:
It is in obedience to our Lord who said: “Do this.”

I want to point out again that the Roman Catholic Church also “did this” for 1,500 years so it’s not as if Orthodoxy is introducing an innovation. It was once our shared tradition. And no, AlexV, please do not take that as a slam against your Church. It’s not. It’s merely to point out that we once had a glorious point of unity in a common apostolic practice, and it raises the question: if you did that for so many centuries, then why not return to the traditional ways now that the danger from these Ultraquists is over?
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Oh, I understand your point and I agree with the ‘necessity’ with any application of economia to return to the strict Norm of the Faith. You and I have absolutely no disagreement here.

But as with any exercise of economia it is the domain of the Bishop of the local Church to execute the canons as the Spirit so directs the needs of his flock but I encourage the return to the Holy Eucharist under two species.

I believe is where I find myself at odds with my fellow ‘Traditional’ Catholics.

Of course, I stand somewhere in the middle looking at the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist under one species as valid and efficacious but ultimately an exercise of economia which cannot and should not persist ad infinum nor should it be recognized as some kind of new established Norm.

And so I must stand and catch rocks from both sides… 😛
I have enjoyed it myself and you’ve made me stretch my mind and beat back the Alzheimer’s. 👍
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Oh, you are a very challenging individual and I’ve been enriched by the exchange.

Gratias 👍
 
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