Eucharist

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Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say in its article about Pope Gelasius:
Code:
    "A stanch upholder of the old traditions, Gelasius nevertheless [knew](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm) when to make exceptions or modifications, such as his [decree](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04670a.htm) [obliging](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11189a.htm) the reception of the [Holy Eucharist](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05572c.htm) under both kinds. This was done as the only effective way of detecting the [Manichæans](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09591a.htm), who, though present in [Rome](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm) in large numbers, sought to divert attention from their hidden propaganda by feigning [Catholicism](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm). As they held wine to be impure and essentially [sinful](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), they would refuse the [chalice](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03561a.htm) and thus be recognized. Later, with the change of conditions, the old normal method of receiving [Holy Communion](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07402a.htm) under the form of bread alone returned into vogue."
930 Thus, the holy Synod itself, instructed by the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and piety, [Isa. 11:2]. and following the judgment and custom of the Church itself, declares and teaches that laymen and clerics not officiating are bound by no divine law to receive the sacrament of the Eucharist under both species, and that without injury to the faith there can be no doubt at all that communion under either species suffices for them for salvation.

I do not understand how the holy Synod decided that their wisdom and understanding was above Jesus Christs teachings? Was this not a command that Christ gave his Apostles to do as I say? How can men of faith even with the holy spirit with-in them over ride a command by Jesus Christ? Are they trying to tell us that Jesus Christ changed his mind about the how we are to receive him when we partake in the Eucharist?
Okay, I guess it would be useful to distinguish between doctrine and discipline.

The doctrine is that Jesus is fully present (Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) in every fragment of either eucharistic species. It’s not as though we have “half” of Jesus over here in the ciborium and the other “half” in the chalice. Jesus is not a jigsaw puzzle that we separate and put back together again. Jesus is Jesus. No assembly required. 😉

Whether the Church has recommended that lay people receive one or both species at different times is a discipline and that can change. Often, it changes in response to heresy. As notacat pointed us to, Pope Gelasius required Communion under both species as a way to counteract the heretical Manicheans who thought that drinking alcohol was evil. Requiring everyone to drink from the cup forced their hand in either renouncing their Manichean heresy or embracing the fact that they weren’t following the teachings of the Church.

At Trent, they emphasized that it was only necessary to receive one species because of the heresy of some of the Reformers that one needed to receive both species in order to “fully” receive Jesus.

As that threat has largely passed, following Vatican II, we see a rise in the reception of both species because it has a fuller sign value and most people are no longer arguing that both species are necessary. Also, people had begun to think that lay people couldn’t receive the cup. So, again, the Church emphasizes receiving both species in order to correct a misunderstanding.

I should point out, too, that, through it all, the priest celebrating Mass always receives both species. What I’m talking about above in regards to discipline pertains only to the laity.
 
I assumed this was a quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church but when I looked it up I see I am mistaken. Could you please tell what document that is from, since it starts with the term THUS, one clearly needs to read what came before:)
He was quoting the text that I had previously posted. It’s from Denzinger’s Sources of Catholic Dogma, which contains quotes from popes and ecumenical councils from the beginning up to (but not including) Vatican II. Paragraph 930 is a quote from the Council of Trent.
 
Joe5859

Are you trying to explain to me that the CC can tell the laity how to translate a verse in the Bible to there thinking? Or, the CC has recommended that lay people receive one or both species at different times is a discipline and that can change? Does a RC lay person have the ability to read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit show the meanings of what they are reading? Or, does the CC dictate to the laity as to how they are to perceive a passage? For me, if Jesus Christ tells me to do something, I better be doing just as he tells me, there is no misunderstand in his command to us, or a different meaning in these particular words we read in our Bibles, as in other cases in scripture that takes some researching to understand what is being told to us. Then I could understand a pastor giving some advice on how to understand a passage.

God let me see the light through your words and understand the message.
 
Joe5859
Are you trying to explain to me that the CC can tell the laity how to translate a verse in the Bible to there thinking? Or, the CC has recommended that lay people receive one or both species at different times is a discipline and that can change? Does a RC lay person have the ability to read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit show the meanings of what they are reading? Or, does the CC dictate to the laity as to how they are to perceive a passage? For me, if Jesus Christ tells me to do something, I better be doing just as he tells me, there is no misunderstand in his command to us, or a different meaning in these particular words we read in our Bibles, as in other cases in scripture that takes some researching to understand what is being told to us. Then I could understand a pastor giving some advice on how to understand a passage.

God let me see the light through your words and understand the message.
As a child we received the body only. When the Mass was changed to English both body and blood were offered. I have never been to any Mass here in Michigan since then that both were not offered. I have not taken the blood for over 20 years. As a recovering alcoholic I cannot. From what I have learned and understood we are encouraged to take both species, but it is not required. At one time alcoholic priests were required to get a special dispensation in order not to use wine. When you receive communion in one form it is the same as receiving in both.
 
Joe5859

Are you trying to explain to me that the CC can tell the laity how to translate a verse in the Bible to there thinking? Or, the CC has recommended that lay people receive one or both species at different times is a discipline and that can change? Does a RC lay person have the ability to read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit show the meanings of what they are reading? Or, does the CC dictate to the laity as to how they are to perceive a passage? For me, if Jesus Christ tells me to do something, I better be doing just as he tells me, there is no misunderstand in his command to us, or a different meaning in these particular words we read in our Bibles, as in other cases in scripture that takes some researching to understand what is being told to us. Then I could understand a pastor giving some advice on how to understand a passage.

God let me see the light through your words and understand the message.
Okay, now we’re opening a big ol’ can of worms! 😉 I’ll do my best to try to answer your questions in a way that hopefully sheds some light rather than raises more questions (but I can’t make any promises! :o). I appreciate your openness and your willingness to ask questions.

Are you trying to explain to me that the CC can tell the laity how to translate a verse in the Bible to there thinking?

The CC does have the authority to interpret Scripture because Jesus established the Church. It’s not really “their” thinking, though. The Church hands down as teaching only what has been given to her by Christ. It’s Christ’s teaching. As Catholics, we believe that Catholic teaching and the words of Scripture are never in contradiction. So we Catholics conform our mind to the teaching of the Church with the knowledge that our minds are also necessarily conformed to Scripture.

Or, the CC has recommended that lay people receive one or both species at different times is a discipline and that can change?

Yes, it is a discipline that can change. Hence, at present we see some dioceses that are putting a hold on receiving from the cup out of concern for the “swine flu” going around.

Does a RC lay person have the ability to read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit show the meanings of what they are reading?

Absolutely, they can! However, the Holy Spirit will never lead someone to interpret Scripture in opposition to Catholic teaching because we know that the Catholic Church has been guaranteed by Christ not to teach error in the realm of faith and morals.

Or, does the CC dictate to the laity as to how they are to perceive a passage?

There are very few passages of Scripture that the Church has definitively interpreted, however all of Church teaching is rooted in Scripture.

One example is the “Bread of Life” discourse in John 6. The Church has said that this passage definitely refers to the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Jesus is not speaking symbolically. Thus, Catholics are not free to believe that the passage is merely symbolic.

For me, if Jesus Christ tells me to do something, I better be doing just as he tells me

Certainly. But we have to be careful about assuming that a particular passage has a “plain” meaning that is obvious to everyone. If everyone interpreted “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life within you” in exactly the same way, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. 🙂
 
I do not understand how the holy Synod decided that their wisdom and understanding was above Jesus Christs teachings? Was this not a command that Christ gave his Apostles to do as I say? How can men of faith even with the holy spirit with-in them over ride a command by Jesus Christ? Are they trying to tell us that Jesus Christ changed his mind about the how we are to receive him when we partake in the Eucharist?
Take notice of who Christ’s command was made to. You said it yourself, He commanded it to the Apostles in the room with Him, which happened to be all of them. He commands that the LEADERS of the Church must partake under both kinds.

If I’m not mistaken, and it’s probably already been said on here, that the Priest officiating Mass is still required to partake of both bread and wine. So the Church is actually enforcing Christ’s command by requireing the leaders of the Church to consume both bread and wine.
 
930 Thus, the holy Synod itself, instructed by the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and piety, [Isa. 11:2]. and following the judgment and custom of the Church itself, declares and teaches that laymen and clerics not officiating are bound by no divine law to receive the sacrament of the Eucharist under both species, and that without injury to the faith there can be no doubt at all that communion under either species suffices for them for salvation.

I do not understand how the holy Synod decided that their wisdom and understanding was above Jesus Christs teachings? Was this not a command that Christ gave his Apostles to do as I say? How can men of faith even with the holy spirit with-in them over ride a command by Jesus Christ? Are they trying to tell us that Jesus Christ changed his mind about the how we are to receive him when we partake in the Eucharist?
The Catholic Church has the authority to do so. It was given that authority by Jesus. “Whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in Heaven.” By what authority do you interpret the scriptures?
 
Does the Catholic Church acknowledge the validity of Anglican consecration of the bread and wine? I wouldn’t think so considering their ministers do not possess the authority via apostolic succession.
 
Thank you All for your opinions, especially Joe5859, JJHill, Greggy53, you all have giving me food for thought and it will take me a little time to pray, and meditate on all the information I have received. Yes, I am thinking about the CC, I am an Anglican at present and have been following what the See of Peter has opened up to Anglicans, my problem is that the Anglican Church here where I live will stay with ACNA, and I do not believe I can stay with them and live by Gods Word. So, I have other questions I will be posting on this site, and I thank God daily for leading me here. Thanks Again

Joe
 
Thank you All for your opinions, especially Joe5859, JJHill, Greggy53, you all have giving me food for thought and it will take me a little time to pray, and meditate on all the information I have received. Yes, I am thinking about the CC, I am an Anglican at present and have been following what the See of Peter has opened up to Anglicans, my problem is that the Anglican Church here where I live will stay with ACNA, and I do not believe I can stay with them and live by Gods Word. So, I have other questions I will be posting on this site, and I thank God daily for leading me here. Thanks Again

Joe
No problem. That’s what we’re here for! :tiphat:

I will keep you in my prayers as you discern. Please pray for me, too.
 
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