Eucharist

[Faith1960]

During the Last Supper, did Jesus hold up and eat his own flesh and blood? If so, how could that be possible since He hadn’t died yet and wasn’t glorified either?

 

[Gorgias]

During the Last Supper, did Jesus hold up and eat his own flesh and blood?

On one hand, it’s useful to point out that the institution narratives don’t say that Jesus consumed the elements that He blessed and gave to the apostles. On the other hand, since it was the Passover, Jesus couldn’t have gone without eating and drinking altogether (since it would imply that He didn’t properly participate in the Passover meal). However, that doesn’t mean that He couldn’t have fulfilled the prescriptions of the Passover and also instituted the Eucharist.

If so, how could that be possible since He hadn’t died yet and wasn’t glorified either?

Jesus’ glorified body exists in eternity, but also was present in the context of our own space-time (that is, during the 40 days prior to the Ascension). Saying that Jesus was bound by ‘time’ says that there are limitations on His glorified body, which is not true. It’s possible precisely because He’s the Son of God…

 

[Faith1960]

On one hand, it’s useful to point out that the institution narratives don’t say that Jesus consumed the elements that He blessed and gave to the apostles. On the other hand, since it was the Passover, Jesus couldn’t have gone without eating and drinking altogether (since it would imply that He didn’t properly participate in the Passover meal). However, that doesn’t mean that He couldn’t have fulfilled the prescriptions of the Passover and also instituted the Eucharist.

Jesus’ glorified body exists in eternity, but also was present in the context of our own space-time (that is, during the 40 days prior to the Ascension). Saying that Jesus was bound by ‘time’ says that there are limitations on His glorified body, which is not true. It’s possible precisely because He’s the Son of God…

So He was able to institute the Eucharist because Hes not limited to space or time and is eternal and because of that, He could transubstantiate the bread and wine even though He hadn’t died yet?

 

[Faith1960]

On one hand, it’s useful to point out that the institution narratives don’t say that Jesus consumed the elements that He blessed and gave to the apostles. On the other hand, since it was the Passover, Jesus couldn’t have gone without eating and drinking altogether (since it would imply that He didn’t properly participate in the Passover meal). However, that doesn’t mean that He couldn’t have fulfilled the prescriptions of the Passover and also instituted the Eucharist.

Jesus’ glorified body exists in eternity, but also was present in the context of our own space-time (that is, during the 40 days prior to the Ascension). Saying that Jesus was bound by ‘time’ says that there are limitations on His glorified body, which is not true. It’s possible precisely because He’s the Son of God…

His body wasn’t glorified yet…

 

[Gorgias]

So He was able to institute the Eucharist because Hes not limited to space or time and is eternal and because of that, He could transubstantiate the bread and wine even though He hadn’t died yet?

Right. He wasn’t transubstantiating his pre-glorified body.

His body wasn’t glorified yet…

His glorified body is an eternal reality. If we believe that He was able to perform miracles before He had a glorified body (e.g., walking on water), why would we not believe that He was able to consecrate the Eucharist before He had a glorified body?

 

[GrowingFaith]

His body wasn’t glorified yet…

It seems like you’re placing human limits on God. If Christ was bound by human limits, then you shouldn’t be asking how He could institute the Eucharist before He was sacrificed, you should be asking how He could even sacrifice Himself for us in the first place, and how He could raise from the dead and ascend into Heaven.

Luckily for us, He isn’t restrained by the restrictions that we live with. There are countless things that God has done that we couldn’t do. To try to understand His actions using the restrictions that we have is a serious underestimation of His power.

 

[Used2beSherryG]

It seems like you’re placing human limits on God. If Christ was bound by human limits, then you shouldn’t be asking how He could institute the Eucharist before He was sacrificed, you should be asking how He could even sacrifice Himself for us in the first place, and how He could raise from the dead and ascend into Heaven.

Luckily for us, He isn’t restrained by the restrictions that we live with. There are countless things that God has done that we couldn’t do. To try to understand His actions using the restrictions that we have is a serious underestimation of His power.

Very well stated! Welcome home to the Catholic Church.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

His body wasn’t glorified yet…

Always bear in mind that the person of Jesus Christ is the Hypostatic union of the Divine Second Person of the Trinity as well as having a fully human body taken from the flesh of the Virgin Mother of God. Therefore it was actually miraculous that Jesus was ordinary in appearance throughout his life, and did not always appear as he did in the Holy Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor. So although the body which he received from the Virgin Mary, was not yet glorified at the Last Supper, yet it remained in the Hypostatic Union, which means Jesus could do exactly as He said. Or, as was said earlier, he could walk on water, raise the dead, since whatever he said was coming from God. IOW, it wasn’t/isn’t having a glorified body which makes the Eucharist possible, rather it is the Word of God.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Jesus’ glorified body exists in eternity

His glorified body is an eternal reality.

No. :nope:

Jesus’s body (glorified or otherwise) had a beginning in time. Its existence may extend into eternity, but it is not an eternal reality.

I believe [user]AmbroseSJ[/user], above, has it right.

tee

 

[GEddie]

The standard-issue human body, or natural body, cannot be transubstantiated. This body holds natural life, which cannot be shared out.

Simply, the Host cannot hold natural life, but it can be made to hold supernatural life. We do not receive His “body” in the dead-body sense of flesh, but In the sense of Greek soma, His entire life and being.

And not natural life, which cannot keep us from dying, but supernatural life. He reached ahead in time, or across time, to transubstantiate His eternal-life body.

ICXC NIKA

 

[GEddie]

No. :nope:

Jesus’s body (glorified or otherwise) had a beginning in time. Its existence may extend into eternity, but it is not an eternal reality.

I believe [user]AmbroseSJ[/user], above, has it right.

tee

Not an eternal body per se, but a body of eternal life!

ICXC NIKA!

 

[tee_eff_em]

The standard-issue human body, or natural body, cannot be transubstantiated. This body holds natural life, which cannot be shared out.

Simply, the Host cannot hold natural life, but it can be made to hold supernatural life.

:twocents:
I know no reason to believe this is true?

I know no impeding reason why the host cannot be transubstantiated into a natural body. I know only that we have no *means *to do so.

Similarly, I’ve no reason to believe that at the judgment when, God willing, we will receive glorified bodies, there will be any way to transubstantiate the eucharistic elements into anyone else’s glorified body? Nor that there is any way now to *reach across time *to do so?

The only transubstantive act we know is to change bread and wine into the (glorified) body, blood, soul, and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Anything else is speculation.

:twocents:
tee

 

[GEddie]

:twocents:
I know no reason to believe this is true?

I know no impeding reason why the host cannot be transubstantiated into a natural body. I know only that we have no *means *to do so.

Similarly, I’ve no reason to believe that at the judgment when, God willing, we will receive glorified bodies, there will be any way to transubstantiate the eucharistic elements into anyone else’s glorified body? Nor that there is any way now to *reach across time *to do so?

The only transubstantive act we know is to change bread and wine into the (glorified) body, blood, soul, and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Anything else is speculation.

:twocents:
tee

Natural human life requires the whole mass, or most of the mass, of the human soma to hold it. It cannot be forced into something smaller, like the Eucharistic host.

We do not in in our human bodies, in any case, possess supernatural life, and so cannot be transubstantiated.

When we have a pneumatikon soma, in all likelihood, the issue of our Transubstantiation would never arise as there would be no need for it. Only our LORD can transfer His life. Human life is otherwise non-transferable.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Faith1960]

You all are confusing me. Can you simplify it, please?

 

[Faith1960]

Always bear in mind that the person of Jesus Christ is the Hypostatic union of the Divine Second Person of the Trinity as well as having a fully human body taken from the flesh of the Virgin Mother of God. Therefore it was actually miraculous that Jesus was ordinary in appearance throughout his life, and did not always appear as he did in the Holy Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor. So although the body which he received from the Virgin Mary, was not yet glorified at the Last Supper, yet it remained in the Hypostatic Union, which means Jesus could do exactly as He said. Or, as was said earlier, he could walk on water, raise the dead, since whatever he said was coming from God. IOW, it wasn’t/isn’t having a glorified body which makes the Eucharist possible, rather it is the Word of God.

Was He holding His body and if so, how? Also how could this be when He wasnt yet glorified?

 

[Gorgias]

Jesus’s body (glorified or otherwise) had a beginning in time.

Good point; I wouldn’t assert that Jesus (Incarnate) existed prior to more-or-less-1-A.D., so this makes sense.

Its existence may extend into eternity, but it is not an eternal reality.

True.

I believe [user]AmbroseSJ[/user], above, has it right.

Two thoughts: first – there are user tags?!?!? Cool!

Second – Ambrose’s comments seem to suggest that the apostles didn’t receive [the substance of] Jesus’ glorified body at the Last Supper. That seems, at first blush, odd. Don’t we say that we receive the substance of Christ’s glorified body in the Eucharist?

 

[Faith1960]

I just read a good article by Fr. Anthony Marques who said us eating the Eucharist is possible because Jesus is supernaturally present. Ok, I get that…but he said “Owing to the Resurrection and Ascension, the Body of Christ has both supernatural and natural characteristics.”
So how could He be holding His own body at the Last Supper – before the Resurrection and Ascension?

catholicvirginian.org/archive/2013/2013vol89iss3/pages/article7.html

 

[GrowingFaith]

You all are confusing me. Can you simplify it, please?

God is all-powerful. He can do what seems impossible to us. Even if it’s something that we cannot possibly fathom, God can do it with ease.

 

[Faith1960]

I just read a good article by Fr. Anthony Marques who said us eating the Eucharist is possible becausAlso, we receive the glorifiedcChriste Jesus is supernaturally present. Ok, I get that…but he said “Owing to the Resurrection and Ascension, the Body of Christ has both supernatural and natural characteristics.”
So how could He be holding His own body at the Last Supper – before the Resurrection and Ascension?

catholicvirginian.org/archive/2013/2013vol89iss3/pages/article7.html

I’d like some more (name removed by moderator)ut on how since we receive the glorified Christ; how could Jesus be holding His glorified body during the Last Supper when He hadn’t been glorified yet? Or was He holding His glorified body?

 

[GEddie]

I’d like some more (name removed by moderator)ut on how since we receive the glorified Christ; how could Jesus be holding His glorified body during the Last Supper when He hadn’t been glorified yet? Or was He holding His glorified body?

Not glorified body, per se; sacramental body. AIUI.

The “glorified body” is a human body in every way. The sacramental body is that same body transubstantiated.

He could Divinely reach across time to hold His sacramental body.

ICXC NIKA