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Faith1960
Guest
I’m trying to understand the Eucharist better. Is it correct to say that the Glorified Jesus can take any form He wishes and He chose to take the form of the Eucharist?
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M
MT1926
Guest
I don’t have a full understanding yet so I can’t really answer your question, but if you want a better understanding of the Eucharist I recommend Scott Hahn’s talk.
stpaulcenter.com/media/audio/the-fourth-cup
I’ve listened to it 3 times now and learn something new every time.
God Bless
stpaulcenter.com/media/audio/the-fourth-cup
I’ve listened to it 3 times now and learn something new every time.
God Bless
F
Faith1960
Guest
Anybody else?
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Yes and no.I’m trying to understand the Eucharist better. Is it correct to say that the Glorified Jesus can take any form He wishes and He chose to take the form of the Eucharist?
Even for an ordinary layman Catholic, this question is constructed in an unusual manner to their understanding of the Eucharist. It gives an impression that the Eucharist is a form or something that Jesus chooses to ‘manifest’ in.
It is true as far as Real Presence is concerned but misleading in the sense that, no, Eucharist is not just a form Jesus chooses to appear to us but it is His true self, His divinity, His whole person. He does not change into the Eucharist, so to speak, but the Eucharist is Him.
It is for this reason that we do not know the ‘substance’ of the bread and the wine, because God’s substance is a mystery. We can only see the accidents, not the substance. So there is actually no visible form of God that can be seen in the Eucharist except for the visible Body and Blood in the form of bread and wine.
God bless.
Reuben
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Faith1960
Guest
He doesn’t change into the Eucharist BUT the Holy Spirit along with the priest changes Him into the EucharistYes and no.
Even for an ordinary layman Catholic, this question is constructed in an unusual manner to their understanding of the Eucharist. It gives an impression that the Eucharist is a form or something that Jesus chooses to ‘manifest’ in.
It is true as far as Real Presence is concerned but misleading in the sense that, no, Eucharist is not just a form Jesus chooses to appear to us but it is His true self, His divinity, His whole person. He does not change into the Eucharist, so to speak, but the Eucharist is Him.
It is for this reason that we do not know the ‘substance’ of the bread and the wine, because God’s substance is a mystery. We can only see the accidents, not the substance. So there is actually no visible form of God that can be seen in the Eucharist except for the visible Body and Blood in the form of bread and wine.
God bless.
Reuben
V
Vico
Guest
The Whole Risen Christ becomes really present, but appears to be bread and wine, at the moment of transubstantiation.He doesn’t change into the Eucharist BUT the Holy Spirit along with the priest changes Him into the Eucharist
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Faith1960
Guest
Is it correct or incorrect to say that the Glorified Jesus can take any form He wishes?The Whole Risen Christ becomes really present, but appears to be bread and wine, at the moment of transubstantiation.
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fbl9
Guest
No,rather say the Holy Spirit through the priest change the bread into Him.He doesn’t change into the Eucharist BUT the Holy Spirit along with the priest changes Him into the Eucharist
. For the bread and wine become the Body and Blood. Not Christ becomes the bread and wine.
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fbl9
Guest
Not knowing you may i suggest something?I’m trying to understand the Eucharist better. …snip.
If it is possible for you when attending Mass sit in a place where you can see the Tabernacle.
Stay a few minutes after Mass and pray to our Lord, present to us in the Eucharist. Or simply bask in the glory of the awesome miracle that is present before your eyes.
V
Vico
Guest
Form meaning appearance? The Most Holy Trinity has the power to take appearances such as Jesus at the transfiguration, in the Eucharist, the Holy Ghost appearing as a dove, the resurrected body of Jesus, and at the glorious ascension…Is it correct or incorrect to say that the Glorified Jesus can take any form He wishes?
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Faith1960
Guest
Yes. So Jesus chooses to take on the form of various things, including the Eucharist?Form meaning appearance? The Most Holy Trinity has the power to take appearances such as Jesus at the transfiguration, in the Eucharist, the Holy Ghost appearing as a dove, the resurrected body of Jesus, and at the glorious ascension…
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Faith1960
Guest
What preceded my question was I was thinking about the Eucharist and just how Jesus is the Eucharist. Then I thought that he could take on any form He wishes, Eucharist or anything else.Yes. So Jesus chooses to take on the form of various things, including the Eucharist?
Is that right or wrong?
M
MT1926
Guest
I am sure their is no problem saying Jesus can do anything he wants.What preceded my question was I was thinking about the Eucharist and just how Jesus is the Eucharist. Then I thought that he could take on any form He wishes, Eucharist or anything else.
Is that right or wrong?
Matthew 19:26
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
However, in my opinion you are on a slippery slope if you say Jesus takes on the form of the Eucharist. To me this makes me think of consubstantiation, which I believe is what Luther said occurs in the Eucharistic celebration. From what I understand they believe Christ in his divinity and his humanity juxtaposed with bread and wine.
Now for us Catholics we believe in Transubstantiation:
The transformation in the Eucharist of the substance of bread and wine into the substance of the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. This transformation of substance does not affect the appearances of the elements, which continue to appear to be bread and wine. The substance changes; the appearances do not.
So the Eucharist is transformed into Jesus not the other way around.
I think if you say Jesus takes on the form of the Eucharist you are setting yourself up for attack by uncharitable anti-Cs who pounce on you when you forget to cross a T or dot an I.
God Bless
V
Vico
Guest
Modern Catholic DictionaryYes. So Jesus chooses to take on the form of various things, including the Eucharist?
CONCOMITANCE. The doctrine that explains why the whole Christ is present under each Eucharistic species. Christ is indivisible, so that his body cannot be separated from his blood, his human soul, his divine nature, and his divine personality. Consequently he is wholly present in the Eucharist. But only the substance of his body is the specific effect of the first consecration at Mass; his blood, soul, divinity, and personality become present by concomitance, i.e., by the inseparable connection that they have with his body. The Church also says the “substance” of Christ’s body because its accidents, though imperceptible, are also present by the same concomitance, not precisely because of the words of consecration.
In the second consecration, the conversion terminates specifically in the presence of the substance of Christ’s blood. But again by concomitance his body and entire self become present as well. (Etym. Latin concomitantia, accompaniment.)
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Faith1960
Guest
I think I’ve read that before, but I dont think it really answers my question.Modern Catholic Dictionary
CONCOMITANCE. The doctrine that explains why the whole Christ is present under each Eucharistic species. Christ is indivisible, so that his body cannot be separated from his blood, his human soul, his divine nature, and his divine personality. Consequently he is wholly present in the Eucharist. But only the substance of his body is the specific effect of the first consecration at Mass; his blood, soul, divinity, and personality become present by concomitance, i.e., by the inseparable connection that they have with his body. The Church also says the “substance” of Christ’s body because its accidents, though imperceptible, are also present by the same concomitance, not precisely because of the words of consecration.
In the second consecration, the conversion terminates specifically in the presence of the substance of Christ’s blood. But again by concomitance his body and entire self become present as well. (Etym. Latin concomitantia, accompaniment.)
P
Pulvis
Guest
From the Baltimore Catechism:
"242. Q. What happened when Our Lord said, “This is My body, this is My blood”?
A. When Our Lord said, “This is My body,” the substance of the bread was changed into the substance of His body. When He said, “This is My blood,” the substance of the wine was changed into the substance of His blood.
“Substance” literally means that which stands underneath. Underneath what? Underneath the outward appearances or qualities-such as color, taste, figure, smell, etc.-that are perceptible to our senses. Therefore we never see the substance of anything. Of this seat, for instance, I see the color, size, and shape; I feel the hardness, etc.; but I do not see the substance, namely, the wood of which it is made. When the substance of anything is changed, the outward appearances change with it. But not so in the Holy Eucharist; for by a miracle the appearances of bread and wine remain the same after the substance has been changed as they were before. As the substance alone is changed in the Holy Eucharist, and as I cannot see the substance, I cannot see the change. I am absolutely certain, however, that the change takes place, because Our Lord said so; and I believe Him, because- He could not deceive me. He is God, and God could not tell a lie, because He is infinite truth. This change is a great miracle, and that is the reason we cannot understand it, though we believe it. Once at a marriage in Cana of Galilee (John 2) Our Lord changed water into wine. The people were poor, and Our Lord, His Blessed Mother, and the Apostles were present at the wedding when the wine ran short; and our Blessed Lady, always so kind to everyone, wishing to spare these poor people from being shamed before their friends, asked Our Lord to perform the miracle, and at her request He did so, and changed many vessels of water into the best of wine. In that miracle Our Lord changed the substance of the water into the substance of the wine. Why, then, could He not change in the same way and by the same power the substance of bread and wine into the substance of His own body and blood? When He changed the water into wine, besides changing the substance, He changed everything else about it; so that it had no longer the appearance of water, but everyone could see that it was wine. But in changing the bread and wine into His body and blood He changes only the substance, and leaves everything else unchanged so that it still looks and tastes like bread and wine; even after the change has taken place and you could not tell by looking at it that it was changed. You know it only from your faith in the words of our divine Lord, when He tells you it is changed.
Again, it is much easier to change one thing into another than to make it entirely out of nothing. Anyone who can create out of nothing can surely change one thing into another. Now Our Lord, being God, created the world out of nothing; and He could therefore easily change the substance of bread into the substance of flesh. I have said Our Lord’s body in the Holy Eucharist is a living body, and every living body contains blood; and that is why we receive both the body and the blood of Our Lord under the appearance of the bread alone. The priest receives the body and blood of Our Lord under the appearance of both bread and wine, while the people receive it only under the appearance of bread. The early Christians used to receive it as the priest does under the appearance of bread and under the appearance of wine; but the Church had to make a change on account of circumstances. First, all the people had to drink from the same chalice or cup, and some would not like that, and show disrespect for the Blessed Sacrament by refusing it. Then there was great danger of spilling the precious blood, passing it from one to another; and finally, some said that Christ’s blood was not in His body under the appearance of bread. This was false; and to show that it was false, and for the other reasons, the Church after that gave Holy Communion to the people under the appearance of bread alone. The Church always believes and teaches the same truths. It always believed that the Holy Eucharist under the appearance of bread contained also Our Lord’s blood; but it taught it more clearly when it was denied."
fyi; This is pre Vatican II when The Chalice was reserved for the Priest.
"242. Q. What happened when Our Lord said, “This is My body, this is My blood”?
A. When Our Lord said, “This is My body,” the substance of the bread was changed into the substance of His body. When He said, “This is My blood,” the substance of the wine was changed into the substance of His blood.
“Substance” literally means that which stands underneath. Underneath what? Underneath the outward appearances or qualities-such as color, taste, figure, smell, etc.-that are perceptible to our senses. Therefore we never see the substance of anything. Of this seat, for instance, I see the color, size, and shape; I feel the hardness, etc.; but I do not see the substance, namely, the wood of which it is made. When the substance of anything is changed, the outward appearances change with it. But not so in the Holy Eucharist; for by a miracle the appearances of bread and wine remain the same after the substance has been changed as they were before. As the substance alone is changed in the Holy Eucharist, and as I cannot see the substance, I cannot see the change. I am absolutely certain, however, that the change takes place, because Our Lord said so; and I believe Him, because- He could not deceive me. He is God, and God could not tell a lie, because He is infinite truth. This change is a great miracle, and that is the reason we cannot understand it, though we believe it. Once at a marriage in Cana of Galilee (John 2) Our Lord changed water into wine. The people were poor, and Our Lord, His Blessed Mother, and the Apostles were present at the wedding when the wine ran short; and our Blessed Lady, always so kind to everyone, wishing to spare these poor people from being shamed before their friends, asked Our Lord to perform the miracle, and at her request He did so, and changed many vessels of water into the best of wine. In that miracle Our Lord changed the substance of the water into the substance of the wine. Why, then, could He not change in the same way and by the same power the substance of bread and wine into the substance of His own body and blood? When He changed the water into wine, besides changing the substance, He changed everything else about it; so that it had no longer the appearance of water, but everyone could see that it was wine. But in changing the bread and wine into His body and blood He changes only the substance, and leaves everything else unchanged so that it still looks and tastes like bread and wine; even after the change has taken place and you could not tell by looking at it that it was changed. You know it only from your faith in the words of our divine Lord, when He tells you it is changed.
Again, it is much easier to change one thing into another than to make it entirely out of nothing. Anyone who can create out of nothing can surely change one thing into another. Now Our Lord, being God, created the world out of nothing; and He could therefore easily change the substance of bread into the substance of flesh. I have said Our Lord’s body in the Holy Eucharist is a living body, and every living body contains blood; and that is why we receive both the body and the blood of Our Lord under the appearance of the bread alone. The priest receives the body and blood of Our Lord under the appearance of both bread and wine, while the people receive it only under the appearance of bread. The early Christians used to receive it as the priest does under the appearance of bread and under the appearance of wine; but the Church had to make a change on account of circumstances. First, all the people had to drink from the same chalice or cup, and some would not like that, and show disrespect for the Blessed Sacrament by refusing it. Then there was great danger of spilling the precious blood, passing it from one to another; and finally, some said that Christ’s blood was not in His body under the appearance of bread. This was false; and to show that it was false, and for the other reasons, the Church after that gave Holy Communion to the people under the appearance of bread alone. The Church always believes and teaches the same truths. It always believed that the Holy Eucharist under the appearance of bread contained also Our Lord’s blood; but it taught it more clearly when it was denied."
fyi; This is pre Vatican II when The Chalice was reserved for the Priest.
P
Pulvis
Guest
And for the CCC on the Eucharist:
ccc.usccb.org/flipbooks/catechism/index.html#352/z
ccc.usccb.org/flipbooks/catechism/index.html#352/z
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Faith1960
Guest
Thanks for your replies, but they don’t answer my question.And for the CCC on the Eucharist:
ccc.usccb.org/flipbooks/catechism/index.html#352/z
I want to know if it’s correct or incorrect to say that the Glorified Jesus can take on any form He wishes?
F
Faith1960
Guest
I’ve been Googling and can’t find the answer.Thanks for your replies, but they don’t answer my question.
I want to know if it’s correct or incorrect to say that the Glorified Jesus can take on any form He wishes?
M
Mammoths
Guest
Your question sounds like you are asking if God is a trekian changeling. He isn’t of course. However, we know that his appearance has differed in different circumstances. I understand it can be fun to speculate as to what God might do that is beyond revelation. However their are some wonderful things He has done that we know of. Here are some examples. God led the people of Israel through the wilderness from Egypt to Canaan with his Glory manifested as smoke by day and fire by night. This Glory was so overwealming that not even Moses the friend of God was able to enter the cloud when God entered the tabernacle. If you see the door of heaven cracked in this life, I assure you it will wreck you for days. When Israel was judged for their rebellion by serpents, Moses lifted their sin on the pole in effigy so that who ever looked on the bronze serpent was healed. Jesus referenced this event as being a statement about himself on the cross. Moses predicted the substitutionary death of Christ in our place on the Cross. “He made him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in him.” In the incarnation we see Him as the seed of the woman bruising the serpant’s head. In his ministry we see him as the Good shepherd laying down his life for the sheep. For a moment in the temple we see him as the messiah who drives out the abomination of oppression of worldliness profaning the holy. and in the future we expect to see the completion of that roll. At the mount of transfiguration we see him as Glorious Lord. In the revelation of John we see a description of the glorified body. John falls at his feat as dead. I hope someday to see him as he is and be like him. Later John looks to the lion and sees a lamb that was slain. Here Christ is represented as the heir of David’s throne, the lion of Juda–and also the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. When the scrolls are opened we see Him on a charger as a mighty warrior and a king supreme. Finally at the end we see him as a groom eagerly waiting the day when he is fully united with his Bride in the new universe He is currently preparing for her.
It is not wrong to wonder or speculate. I just wanted to show you some of the ways Jesus has appeared to us and certainly I haven’t covered them all. I could also have mentioned the bread that came down from heaven and books have been written there. The key thing is that these revelations are a message to us about who He is and our place in His plan–to know love enjoy worship and serve him for ever. There is much to appreciate in how he has appeared.
I will say there is a limit to what God can do. He is limited not by power or talent but but by fidelity to Himself. He cannot do evil. His thoughts are higher than ours and we don’t always know what is Good as a result some of the things we wish or expect him to do he cannot do. Other things that seem impossible to us are easy for him. So I don’t know how many ways he can appear, but the way he has revealed Himself to us so far is awesome.
It is not wrong to wonder or speculate. I just wanted to show you some of the ways Jesus has appeared to us and certainly I haven’t covered them all. I could also have mentioned the bread that came down from heaven and books have been written there. The key thing is that these revelations are a message to us about who He is and our place in His plan–to know love enjoy worship and serve him for ever. There is much to appreciate in how he has appeared.
I will say there is a limit to what God can do. He is limited not by power or talent but but by fidelity to Himself. He cannot do evil. His thoughts are higher than ours and we don’t always know what is Good as a result some of the things we wish or expect him to do he cannot do. Other things that seem impossible to us are easy for him. So I don’t know how many ways he can appear, but the way he has revealed Himself to us so far is awesome.
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