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Faith1960
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I don’t know.
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Vico
Guest
Divine or human powers?I don’t mean that. That doesn’t answer my question.
I mean can or could Jesus, under His own power and will, become someone or something else?
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MT1926
Guest
OK, that happens sometimes to me too. You just get that burning desire to get an answer to the question. I hope you find what you are looking for.I don’t know.
Maybe re-posting the question on the ask an apologist forum might be able to steer you in a better direction…
God Bless
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Faith1960
Guest
Either.Divine or human powers?
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Mammoths
Guest
Aha! No. Jesus is unchangeable. That is he cannot cease to be Himself. Nor Can He cease to be God, nor can His Character change. So he cannot cease to be God and become exclusively man. Scripture tells us He took on humanity. It does not say that His divine nature changed or that He ceased to be God while suffering as a man. This is a mystery how God could become man a man for us and our language is a barrier to precisely describe the incarnation. Jesus is God incarnate. He is not the man who used to be God. So no he cannot change himself from God to something else. This is an example where his omnipotence is limited by his goodness.I don’t mean that. That doesn’t answer my question.
I mean can or could Jesus, under His own power and will, become someone or something else?
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Vico
Guest
So you asked, this for either human or divine powers: “I mean can or could Jesus, under His own power and will, become someone or something else?”Either.
No and no.
- Human power.
- Divine power.
The person of the Son assumed the incarnation Jesus with human body and soul, but retained divine nature and personality.
The real presence is not the Son becoming bread and wine, but the miraculous appearance of bread and wine with the real presence of the Son in place of the bread and win.
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Faith1960
Guest
Does Jesus choose to make Himself invisible by the power of the Holy Spirit when He’s transubstantiated into the Eucharist?So you asked, this for either human or divine powers: “I mean can or could Jesus, under His own power and will, become someone or something else?”
No and no.
A human can not become something else, but can modify behavior to become as people say “someone different”, but still is the same person.
- Human power.
The Most Holy Trinity can manifest different ways but remains divine.
- Divine power.
The person of the Son assumed the incarnation Jesus with human body and soul, but retained divine nature and personality.
The real presence is not the Son becoming bread and wine, but the miraculous appearance of bread and wine with the real presence of the Son in place of the bread and win.
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Vico
Guest
Baltimore Catechism:Does Jesus choose to make Himself invisible by the power of the Holy Spirit when He’s transubstantiated into the Eucharist?
Q. 882. How do we know that under the appearance of bread we receive also Christ’s blood; and under the appearance of wine we receive also Christ’s body?
A. We know that under the appearance of bread we receive also Christ’s blood, and under the appearance of wine we receive also Christ’s body; because in the Holy Eucharist we receive the living body of Our Lord, and a living body cannot exist without blood, nor can living blood exist without a body.
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Faith1960
Guest
I know, but that doesn’t answer my question.Baltimore Catechism:
Q. 882. How do we know that under the appearance of bread we receive also Christ’s blood; and under the appearance of wine we receive also Christ’s body?
A. We know that under the appearance of bread we receive also Christ’s blood, and under the appearance of wine we receive also Christ’s body; because in the Holy Eucharist we receive the living body of Our Lord, and a living body cannot exist without blood, nor can living blood exist without a body.
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Vico
Guest
Q. Does Jesus choose to make Himself invisible by the power of the Holy Spirit when He’s transubstantiated into the Eucharist?I know, but that doesn’t answer my question.
A. No, the bread and wine are really converted into the resurrected Christ, and that is what you see, but through a miracle it appears to be merely bread and wine. We receive the entire Christ (Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity) in either the Body of Christ or the Blood of Christ.
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Mammoths
Guest
CCC 1330 paraphrase: The Eucharistic celebration makes present the one sacrifice of Christ.Does Jesus choose to make Himself invisible by the power of the Holy Spirit when He’s transubstantiated into the Eucharist?
John 10:17-18 [Jesus speaking about Himself as the Good Shepherd.]
17 Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
18 No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
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Mammoths
Guest
Does Jesus choose to make Himself invisible by the power of the Holy Spirit when He’s transubstantiated into the Eucharist?
Q. Does Jesus choose to make Himself invisible by the power of the Holy Spirit when He’s transubstantiated into the Eucharist?
A. No, the bread and wine are really converted into the resurrected Christ, and that is what you see, but through a miracle it appears to be merely bread and wine. We receive the entire Christ (Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity) in either the Body of Christ or the Blood of Christ.
It seems the power of the Eucharistic Miracle belongs to Christ. However, He is not invisible. The bread and wine cease to be bread and wine and Jesus is there instead. When you look at the bread it is Jesus–if I understand correctly.CCC 1330 paraphrase: The Eucharistic celebration makes present the one sacrifice of Christ.
John 10:17-18 [Jesus speaking about Himself as the Good Shepherd.]
17 Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
18 No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
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Faith1960
Guest
And this is possible, how? Due the power of the Holy Spirit?Q. Does Jesus choose to make Himself invisible by the power of the Holy Spirit when He’s transubstantiated into the Eucharist?
A. No, the bread and wine are really converted into the resurrected Christ, and that is what you see, but through a miracle it appears to be merely bread and wine. We receive the entire Christ (Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity) in either the Body of Christ or the Blood of Christ.
Due to Jesus’ power?
Due to Jesus being Glorified?
Something else?
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Vico
Guest
The power of The Most Holy Trinity.And this is possible, how? Due the power of the Holy Spirit?
Due to Jesus’ power?
Due to Jesus being Glorified?
Something else?
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Mammoths
Guest
This discussion makes me wonder how Jesus body could be in every church at the same time?
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Faith1960
Guest
Vico?This discussion makes me wonder how Jesus body could be in every church at the same time?
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Vico
Guest
It is a miracle. Do you expect to understand how God achieves miracles?Vico?
I like the way that it it expressed in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which is celebrated by the Byzantine Catholic church.
CELEBRANT: Broken and distributed is the Lamb of God, broken yet not divided, ever eaten yet never consumed, but sanctifying those who partake thereof.
Also consider what was taught by Instrumentum Laboris, 11th General Synod of Bishops:
In the Eucharist, the faithful are nourished with the Body of the Risen Christ. In each Eucharistic celebration throughout the world, the Risen Lord, conqueror of sin and death, goes beyond the limits of time and space and is really present under the elements of bread and wine. Therefore, it is the Body of the Glorified Lord.
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Gorgias
Guest
No.Does Jesus choose to make Himself invisible by the power of the Holy Spirit when He’s transubstantiated into the Eucharist?
We, as humans, are visible because we have a physical form. (We each have substance, too… but that substance isn’t visible.)
The Eucharist is Jesus. When the Eucharist is confected, the substance of “bread and wine” becomes the substance of Jesus. In doing so, the bread and wine become Eucharist – that is, they become Jesus, sacramentally present. The physical form of the Eucharist is the form of bread and wine. (There’s a subtlety here: the physical form of the Eucharist isn’t bread and wine… it’s the form of bread and wine. In other words, it’s not consubstantiation, which some Christians believe, in which the bread and wine remain. Catholics believe that, although the form remains, it becomes Jesus fully.)
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Gorgias
Guest
Physical form can only be in one place at a time. However, ‘substance’ is not physical.This discussion makes me wonder how Jesus body could be in every church at the same time?
You’d agree that God can be everywhere simultaneously, wouldn’t you? Then, you’d agree that the substance of Jesus can be everywhere simultaneously.
You’d also agree, I’d guess, that lots of bread and wine can be present… in every church at the same time. After all, they’re distinct pieces of bread and wine. No problem there.
When the Eucharist is celebrated, the substance of the bread and the substance of wine become the substance of Jesus. When this happens, the bread and wine become Jesus. There’s no difficulty here: just as bread and wine can be present in every church simultaneously, and the substance of Jesus can be present everywhere simultaneously, so can the Eucharist be present in every church simultaneously.
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Mammoths
Guest
Love the way you explain that step by step. I get that it’s a miracle and a mystery, but those explanation gives me a logically plausible reason why it’s not a violation of possibility. Thanks.Physical form can only be in one place at a time. However, ‘substance’ is not physical.
You’d agree that God can be everywhere simultaneously, wouldn’t you? Then, you’d agree that the substance of Jesus can be everywhere simultaneously.
You’d also agree, I’d guess, that lots of bread and wine can be present… in every church at the same time. After all, they’re distinct pieces of bread and wine. No problem there.
When the Eucharist is celebrated, the substance of the bread and the substance of wine become the substance of Jesus. When this happens, the bread and wine become Jesus. There’s no difficulty here: just as bread and wine can be present in every church simultaneously, and the substance of Jesus can be present everywhere simultaneously, so can the Eucharist be present in every church simultaneously.
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