Eucharist

[Faith1960]

Physical form can only be in one place at a time. However, ‘substance’ is not physical.

You’d agree that God can be everywhere simultaneously, wouldn’t you? Then, you’d agree that the substance of Jesus can be everywhere simultaneously.

You’d also agree, I’d guess, that lots of bread and wine can be present… in every church at the same time. After all, they’re distinct pieces of bread and wine. No problem there.

When the Eucharist is celebrated, the substance of the bread and the substance of wine become the substance of Jesus. When this happens, the bread and wine become Jesus. There’s no difficulty here: just as bread and wine can be present in every church simultaneously, and the substance of Jesus can be present everywhere simultaneously, so can the Eucharist be present in every church simultaneously.

I think I (we?) are having difficulty with the definition of ‘substance’. I get that substance is what makes a thing what it is, but there must be a further way of explaining it.

 

[Mammoths]

I think I (we?) are having difficulty with the definition of ‘substance’. I get that substance is what makes a thing what it is, but there must be a further way of explaining it.

The issue might not be so much with understanding the basic notion of substance as differentiating between a materialist notion of substance vs a complete view which includes the transcendent. The materialist view of substance tends to think of a ghost as insubstantial because it has no perceived mass. However the Christian view of substance would consider the non-physical as having immaterial substance. In other words a ghost is substantial although it is not material. In the case of the resurrected body, the apostle tells is that the body is sown a physical body but raised a spiritual body. 1corinthians 15:42-45 the substance of the spiritual body is different and has different characteristics than the physical body.

 

[Faith1960]

The issue might not be so much with understanding the basic notion of substance as differentiating between a materialist notion of substance vs a complete view which includes the transcendent. The materialist view of substance tends to think of a ghost as insubstantial because it has no perceived mass. However the Christian view of substance would consider the non-physical as having immaterial substance. In other words a ghost is substantial although it is not material. In the case of the resurrected body, the apostle tells is that the body is sown a physical body but raised a spiritual body. 1corinthians 15:42-45 the substance of the spiritual body is different and has different characteristics than the physical body.

Huh? In English please.

 

[Mammoths]

Huh? In English please.

The scripture reference is a way of saying it. There are different kinds of substance just like there are different kinds of meat. Steak is way different than halibut. The spiritual body that God raises up is way different than the physical body that dies. The body that dies is made of dust. We know what it is like. The spiritual body is beyond what we know so far. But it is a spiritual body and has characteristics that are way different than the physical body. We can hardly imagine a smidge what it could do. That is why things like ominipresence which are impossible for a physical body, might be possible for a spiritual body, so that is the answer to my question. Jesus is omnipresent. His Body is a spiritual Body so there is no way I could even imagine what he could do in His Spiritual body, but the Eucharist is one of the things He can do.

 

[Gorgias]

Love the way you explain that step by step. I get that it’s a miracle and a mystery, but those explanation gives me a logically plausible reason why it’s not a violation of possibility. Thanks.

You’re welcome!

 

[Faith1960]

The scripture reference is a way of saying it. There are different kinds of substance just like there are different kinds of meat. Steak is way different than halibut. The spiritual body that God raises up is way different than the physical body that dies. The body that dies is made of dust. We know what it is like. The spiritual body is beyond what we know so far. But it is a spiritual body and has characteristics that are way different than the physical body. We can hardly imagine a smidge what it could do. That is why things like ominipresence which are impossible for a physical body, might be possible for a spiritual body, so that is the answer to my question. Jesus is omnipresent. His Body is a spiritual Body so there is no way I could even imagine what he could do in His Spiritual body, but the Eucharist is one of the things He can do.

Jesus’ body is a spiritual body?

 

[Vico]

Jesus’ body is a spiritual body?

Catechism

1017 “We believe in the true resurrection of this flesh that we now possess” (Council of Lyons II: DS 854). We sow a corruptible body in the tomb, but he raises up an incorruptible body, a “spiritual body” (cf. 1 Cor 15:42-44).

 

[Mammoths]

Catechism

1017 “We believe in the true resurrection of this flesh that we now possess” (Council of Lyons II: DS 854). We sow a corruptible body in the tomb, but he raises up an incorruptible body, a “spiritual body” (cf. 1 Cor 15:42-44).

Amen

 

[Faith1960]

Catechism

1017 “We believe in the true resurrection of this flesh that we now possess” (Council of Lyons II: DS 854). We sow a corruptible body in the tomb, but he raises up an incorruptible body, a “spiritual body” (cf. 1 Cor 15:42-44).

Okay, thanks!

 

[goout]

Okay, thanks!

No small amount of mystery involved here.
This issue caused me to wonder also when I reverted.
I objected to the idea that Jesus has a body, and I asked “where is it and what does it look like?”
Since we are talking about things glorified, we cannot comprehend what all that means. We simply know that Christ’s flesh is not accidental to him, and it is not something to be cast off.
And he has his wounds, but they are glorified as well.

 

[goout]

I’m trying to understand the Eucharist better. Is it correct to say that the Glorified Jesus can take any form He wishes and He chose to take the form of the Eucharist?

Yes he can.
God is omnipotent. God can do whatever he wills, including creating all that exists out of “nothing”.
If God can bring forth existence, he can surely take any form he chooses any time he chooses in any place he chooses.

So the simply answer to your question is “yes he can”.

The bigger question might be “what does he choose to do?”, which other posters have answered well.

 

[Vico]

Okay, thanks!

I was hoping that you would think it through and recognize the meanings of certain key words.

When discussing this topic, metaphysics is often used by theologians. Metaphysically, form is the principle whereby the matter has a particular structure, and matter is what stands to be structured. Material substances are composed of substantial form and matter.

 

[Faith1960]

I was hoping that you would think it through and recognize the meanings of certain key words.

When discussing this topic, metaphysics is often used by theologians. Metaphysically, form is the principle whereby the matter has a particular structure, and matter is what stands to be structured. Material substances are composed of substantial form and matter.

That’s over my head again.

 

[Vico]

That’s over my head again.

Sorry I cannot help you.

 

[Faith1960]

Sorry I cannot help you.

Yeah, I’m sorry, too.

 

[Vico]

Yeah, I’m sorry, too.

The problem is that common words do not have the same meanings as those used in theology, so when you read theology it requires knowing more than average. If you just accept it on faith you will not need to understand more than the average.

Here we have the situation of defining what a thing is and what a thing appears to be. They are not always the same so with the Eucharist the bread and wine are no longer bread and wine but still look like it. God does not change however, but the bread and wine do. However God manifests Himself he has not changed, however there may be a different appearance.

 

[Mammoths]

I was hoping that you would think it through and recognize the meanings of certain key words.

When discussing this topic, metaphysics is often used by theologians. Metaphysically, form is the principle whereby the matter has a particular structure, and matter is what stands to be structured. Material substances are composed of substantial form and matter.

Would a Spiritual body have matter? Or would it’s substance be immaterial? I generally think of matter as substance which composes or is composed of atoms–the periodic table of the elements. I always thought this is what scripture calls “things that are seen.” 2cor 4:18 would the substance of a spiritual body be the unseen “stuff” of eternity–totally real, just not elemental. Peter says that eventually the elements will be “dissolved.” I don’t suppose I want my glorified body to be made of elements. 2peter 3:11

 

[Mammoths]

Yes he can.
God is omnipotent. God can do whatever he wills, including creating all that exists out of “nothing”.
If God can bring forth existence, he can surely take any form he chooses any time he chooses in any place he chooses.

So the simply answer to your question is “yes he can”.

The bigger question might be “what does he choose to do?”, which other posters have answered well.

Can God make a rock so heavy he can’t move it? Some people think that is a dumb question. But it isn’t. It isn’t a stump the preacher either. The answer is it’s own proof. In philosophy we call this “self evident.” Omnipotence’s does not imply God has power to do that which is impossible–where ‘impossible’ is understood correctly. Scripture tells us explicitly that it is impossible for God to lie and that He cannot deny Himself. It’s not just that He chooses not to lie even though He could, He cannot lie. However nothing is hard for God. It is either easy, or impossible. The things that are easy for God include much that is impossible for man–such as create a universe from nothing. But, He cannot make a four sided Euclidean triangle. Scripture teaches us that by Wisdom God created the world. Although His wisdom seems like foolishness to those who love darkness, God is not foolish and He can’t do evil. So no, Jesus can never be anyone but Himself no matter what shape He takes.

 

[Mammoths]

That’s over my head again.

1st, you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.
2nd, obviously you have an interest in things that are deep and difficult to consider. Like in every arena of human activity, philosophers and Theologians develop a specialized vocabulary so they can learn together. you don’t have to be special or weird, you just have to be willing to reject a certain prejudice that says academic speech is the pervue of the aloof and silly. If you can learn the Jargon of an auto mechanic, you can learn that of the Theologian.
3rd the greatest commandment tells us to Love God with all our mind as well as all our being. The desire to ask deep and difficult questions that you exhibit is a possible manifestation of that love. Learning the language will help you communicate these mysteries.

I don’t believe any of this is over your head. I do believe you, like me, sometimes need a little help wading through the language. It’s good exercise to try to say it another way too.

 

[Vico]

Would a Spiritual body have matter? Or would it’s substance be immaterial? I generally think of matter as substance which composes or is composed of atoms–the periodic table of the elements. I always thought this is what scripture calls “things that are seen.” 2cor 4:18 would the substance of a spiritual body be the unseen “stuff” of eternity–totally real, just not elemental. Peter says that eventually the elements will be “dissolved.” I don’t suppose I want my glorified body to be made of elements. 2peter 3:11

I think that detail is not given, but for the glorious resurrection:

• impassibility: “It is sown corruptible; it is raised incorruptible.” (1 Corinthians 15:42).
• glory: “It is sown dishonorable; it is raised glorious.” (1 Corinthians 15:43; cf. Matthew 13:43; 17:2; Philippians 3:21).
• agility: “It is sown weak; it is raised powerful.” (1 Corinthians 15:43).
• subtlty: “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.” (1 Corinthians 15:44).

1 Corinthians 15:46-49
46 But the spiritual was not first; rather the natural and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, earthly; the second man, from heaven. 48 As was the earthly one, so also are the earthly, and as is the heavenly one, so also are the heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthly one, we shall also bear the image[c] of the heavenly one.

Catechism

989 We firmly believe, and hence we hope that, just as Christ is truly risen from the dead and lives for ever, so after death the righteous will live for ever with the risen Christ and he will raise them up on the last day.534 Our resurrection, like his own, will be the work of the Most Holy Trinity:

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit who dwells in you.535
990 The term “flesh” refers to man in his state of weakness and mortality.536 The “resurrection of the flesh” (the literal formulation of the Apostles’ Creed) means not only that the immortal soul will live on after death, but that even our “mortal body” will come to life again.537​