A
Aramis
Guest
I don’t object to it in Roman parishes, and will take part when my Knights council asks me to, but it’s not part of Byzantine praxis, and theologically, it’s superfluous in the byzantine mode.
- Status
A
Allyson
Guest
As a Latin praxis, I see it as a great good. However, as a Latin praxis, I think that it should be generally restricted - as I understand the tradition to be - to the monasteries. It’s presence in parishes is not evil of course, but it is not ideal. The sort of watchfulness required is best done in the monastic setting.
Another really important reason I have for saying this that I believe that it’s cultivation in monastic life would be fruitful for the reviving of the monastic life in the Latin Church. Obviously I recognize that this is done already, but the more it is done an maintained in monastic communities by the members of the communities themselves, without dependence on lay people, the better.
It is not part of the Eastern Praxis and need not be for the same end to be achieved. We have adoration in the course of the Divine Liturgy. Sadly, I did not make it to the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified gifts tonight; it makes Lent my favorite season. At this liturgy we adore the already consecrated body that was consecrated on Sunday.
I still go to adoration on occasion, like when I am visiting friends of mine who have an hour obligation at a local parish; but it is not something that I go out of my way to do for reasons already stated.
I don’t think that it is bad for all us to share in each others spiritual practices at all.
BTW, we have icons: orthodoxwiki.org/Icons They are windows to heaven and a source of grace which represent truly the persons Saints and God they are depicting.
M
Madaglan
Guest
Reverse defenestration?BTW, we have icons: orthodoxwiki.org/Icons They are windows to heaven and a source of grace which represent truly the persons Saints and God they are depicting.
V
Voradin
Guest
Yes I wonder how could you throw some one up into a window on a two story building?
J
JPUSC
Guest
When you’re bowing in prayer in front of an icon, be careful not to lean so far as to risk falling through the window.
V
Voradin
Guest
People from the East bow in front of Icons?
Is that how they revarance them?
Is that how they revarance them?
M
Madaglan
Guest
Oh, the police tape now makes sense.When you’re bowing in prayer in front of an icon, be careful not to lean so far as to risk falling through the window.
Gotta watch out for that!
I’d hate to see an icon stand on the stand.
A
adstrinity
Guest
Yes, to venerate them.
A
ASimpleSinner
Guest
Eastern Catholics are not a singular entity, and the opinion on accretions from Latin spiritualities, run the whole gamut. As you may be aware, the Maronites in the US have a monastery for men dedicated to adoration.
I take a more nuanced and somewhat neutral view of the acceptence of some Latin pieties or even liturgical practices… Ten years ago I was a “purist” thinking any and every “Latinization” should be shed… But today I have a soft spot (if not a will to encourage) what in many ways were semi-organic developments that were rooted in equal parts admiration, contradistinction (some Ukrainians loved how “not Russian” their clean-shaven faces and 33-button cassocks were!) and popular piety of neighbors that, very aware of their intercommunion, some adopted.
The talk of “Latinization” as thought it were always and everywhere a forced campaign or that it never had a place or benifit, is just something I can’t sign on to anymore. It occured to me that many of those pieties of Latin root were formative and sustaining to any number of the founders and benefactors of our parishes that we have today.
Point in case? More than a few of the pious, octogenarian matrons of my home parish were staunch Fatimatistas, praying the daily Rosary for the conversion of Russia and the defeat of communism. Why? Because they had self-esteem issues about their Greek Catholic patrimony? Because they were forced to by Latins? Because they were unaware of Byzantine spiritualities? No, because they took on faith that OL Fatima was a real apparition to all Catholics, and they were bitterly aware (some being escapees) of the evils of Communism and wanted to “do their part” to see that it was destroyed…
All this being said, I do not regularly attend exposition at RC parishes… I do however, have a special affinity for directing my prayers to the tabernacle of RC churches when visiting… And when I am blessed with the opportunity to serve as an altar server at a DL, I do fix my gaze upon the consecrated gifts in a manner which, ironically, cannot be done at a Roman Mass as the gifts are not as visible given that the elements of the bread is unleavened.
I will also note that Eucharistic adoration - if not in the form of exposition of the sacrament in a manner that makes it visible - is very much a part of the prayer and spirituality of the Eastern Christians. From the simple piety of kissing the chalice to the very architecture of the church which sets apart the altar upon which the Blessed Sacrament is reserved (and in many places renewed only annually, with the Eucharist set aside for the sick or infirm being stored in a seperate pyx).
Ultimately, I would hate to see the discussion devolve into polemic over who is “more right” or which tradition is “deficient”. With respect to Madaglan, I would feel rather more comfortable with an exact quote rather than a remembered paraphrase from Fr. Benedict.
D
DixitDominus
Guest
Though Eastern Catholic do not practice exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, I am certain (though I am not an Eastern Catholic myself) that they adore our Lord in the tabernacles of their churches.
M
Madaglan
Guest
The forum wouldn’t allow me to have 89 poll options.
While distinctions among Churches should rightly be made, I do not see it out of place to consider the Eastern Catholic Churches together.
The difficulty with Latinizations is that, while there may be spiritual benefits from them according to their adopters, they also have been adopted for other reasons. The danger I see here is where “not Russian” Latin traditions might be adopted in opposition to Russian traditions, traditions that might also happen to be Ukrainian traditions.
Right. To see all Latinizations as forced and with no positive spiritual dimension (in the eyes of their adopters) would be cynical.
Well, I didn’t bring a notebook and pen to Exposition and Benediction, and I didn’t have a video/audio recorder with me either. I wrote of the event shortly thereafter in my journal. I’ll see what I can dig up.
.
M
malphono
Guest
The issue of Latinization has, as ASimpleSinner correctly points out, several aspects, and I will add that those aspects can vary from group-to-group. I’m not great fan of most types of “Latinization” and am not jumping back into this fray, but I cannot resist a comment with focus on “contradistinction” and the Slav Byzantines in particular.ASimpleSinner:
The difficulty with Latinizations is that, while there may be spiritual benefits from them according to their adopters, they also have been adopted for other reasons. The danger I see here is where “not Russian” Latin traditions might be adopted in opposition to Russian traditions, traditions that might also happen to be Ukrainian traditions.
Right. To see all Latinizations as forced and with no positive spiritual dimension (in the eyes of their adopters) would be cynical.
The Russian Church sprang originally from Ukraine (as did Russia itself for that matter) and of course history tells that subsequently Ukraine effectively became a vassal, both ecclesiastically and politically. (Yes I know I’m going to get slammed for that remark, but have no intention of engaging in a debate about it: history is history.) The balance of the non-Russian northern Slavs similarly fell within the same “protective arms,” if perhaps to a slightly lesser degree.
I find it interesting that the non-Russian northern Slav Byzantines seem not to have suppressed Byzantine practices (except maybe for clerical street garb, and that’s not exactly a big deal), but rather seem to have supplemented them with certain devotions and practices imported from the Latins.
As I see it, it’s no wonder that the non-Russian northern Slav Byzantines willingly took on a certain degree of “Latinization” since visible signs (the “contradistinction”) were important. Perhaps they still are important. It seems to me the need is still there.
Anyway, it’s all just my :twocents: and probably not worth even that.
M
malphono
Guest
I guess I missed that in my previous comment. Well, it doesn’t matter since the points are totally different.
Anyway, tes, that is true. The abbey is of diocesan right, and is not part of an ancient (or even traditional) Maronite institution.
Be that as it may, though, to claim that adoration is authentic to the Maronites is not accurate. The practice of adoration (along with benediction) among the Maronites is purely and simply a Latinization, and most definitely not for reasons of contradistinction.
A
ASimpleSinner
Guest
*]Who made the claim it is “authentic” to the Maronites?
*]Who is in a position to determine authenticity?
*]Who made the claim it was for a reason of contradistinction?
To be clear:
*]Not me.
*]That is another thread altogether… Suffice to say, the Maronites I have known and prayed with are Easterners a breed apart from Byzantines. Their concept of what is “Maronite” is far more fluid and maleable… Determining “authenticity”, and what constitutes authenticity versus slavish antiquarianism is something about which manifold opinion seems to exist. It is the height of irony that a few rather “Westernized” Maronites (one or two on here) seem to have adopted a VERY Byzantine approach in appropriating only that which is of the greatest antiquity the mantle of authenticity…
*]Not me.
In fact what I did write:
So if we can, let’s not assume arguments one is making (when they are not) and counter such straw men.
That being said, my point was that this piety - yes, a Latin accretion, does exist and is currently practiced in some Eastern speheres.
Questions do arise of what constitutes inviolable tradition and what traditions are somewhat sacrosanct. Simpleton that I am, I have to ask, like the simpleton who pointed out the Emperor was streaking, what is the measure of “Ukrainian tradition” that gives certitude to the idea that it is a tragedy for one or another of them to be set by the wayside at points?
This isn’t coming from the mouth of a a pro-“Latinizationer” (although I know I will surely be thought of as such by some, part of [especially internet] discussion is knowing you can’t please everyone and NEVER convince some!)… The main point I can offer is that I no longer share in the radical distaste for Western Catholic-inspired accretions that fly in the face of my personal sense of what is “pristine”.
M
malphono
Guest
Very sorry that you took my comment the wrong way. It wasn’t meant as an attack, nor was I intending to put words in your mouth. I did not at all mean to imply that you did any of the things in your list. What you said originally was fine, and of course there was no reference to the practice being one of contradistinction.
My intention was simply to note that the practice is not authentic to the Maronites. No more, no less. Perhaps I should have been clearer about that.
Again, I am sorry for the misunderstanding.
M
Madaglan
Guest
I was reading my older journals today and came across the entry concerning this event. The event was the evening of 7/29/06 in the Fieldhouse of Franciscan University of Steubenville. Unfortunately I did not write down an exact quote and simply wrote my overall impression: “I had experienced earlier the moving sermon of Fr. Benedict Groeshel, but then I was put aghast by the loud, spirit-deadening worship music.” So, I did not write down the exact quote. I see now that at the time other subjects were in the forefront.
S
Seamus_L
Guest
Eucharistic adoration need not interfere with other devotions. There are no definite rules regarding what one does during EA. We’re simply in the physical presence of Christ. I imagine there are many Eastern devotions that could be said during that time.
Also, the original purpose of Eucharistic adoration, has no relevance to it's continued benefits.
T
twf
Guest
One thing I never understood…it seems that some Eastern and Oriental Catholics believe that there was a cut-off point, at some point in Church history, for the development of authentic devotions and spiritual practices. The Latin Church’s devotions have developed, for better or for worse, throughout the centuries, and continue to do so today…organic development has always been part of the Church’s life. The Latin Church is perfectly comfortable adopting new practices and devotions, if deemed beneficial, and even borrowing from other traditions…do organic developments and even the careful adoption of other Church’s devotions/practices have no place in the Eastern/Oriental Churches?
A
Aramis
Guest
Not so much a cut-off, as a strong self-referential pattern of development…
For example, the Akathyst to St. Herman (Russian Orthodox, OCA) is done in a style identical to other Apostle/Martyr’s Akathists. Essentially, the Akathist service is unchanged, and just the Akathyst hymn and a few other bits change. It follows the same form, and is much the same as “any other” akathyst.
This is how things develop in the east: When a need is seen, something old is adjusted just a little to fill the need. That is the pattern of Tradition in the East.
It used to be the pattern in the west, as well. It’s just that, about 200 years ago, the west decided the east needed to match the west. Then 60 years ago, Rome decided that doing so was a Bad Idea™…
M
malphono
Guest
True. That is quite the way it works.
The only thing is that the time-line seems to be little off: the first really started in the 16th century. The second really in the 1920s under PP Pius XI.
- Status