Eucharistic Adoration

[rcwitness]

Another question is this:
Do you (your church/leaders) have the body and blood of the New Covenant to give for Communion with God and brother?

 

[rcwitness]

I am not trying to be challenging. I am just trying to sort it through.

btw, my comment was just humor. I like that you challenge! You have genuine concerns, as well as wannano. I can usually tell the difference with respectful debating from quarrelsome oppositionalism. I don’t like to just pose questions to make myself feel good about putting down genuine believers.

I wonder when the earliest record of the true adoration or worship of the Eucharist occurred.

I’d say it is always adorn when received. But you mean, outside of eating. I would like to know also. And do you think a reverence in the manner in which it is kept could constitute “adoration”? Or do you specifically mean praying before and towards the consecrated Eucharist?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I am not trying to be challenging. I am just trying to sort it through.

The Ark of the Covenant was very sacred. It was kept in the “holy of holies,” and many miracles and wonders accompanied the box. It and what was in and around it is certainly meaningful, but I am not aware that it was worshiped or venerated. I think it was a place where God was worshiped and the Spirit was present. It seemed to represent God’s presence with the Israelites and at times God was present in a cloud over the ark.

It seems the significance of the Ark of the Covenant wasn’t about God being physically present, but about it symbolizing that God was with them. It was revered, but not worshiped. I don’t know if it would be a convincing reason to accept the worship of the physical presence of God in the Eucharist. I think that is a very different concept.

I wonder when the earliest record of the true adoration or worship of the Eucharist occurred.

Hi Susan.

Uzzah was put to death when he accidentally touched the Ark. So God’s presence was clearly there and made known to everyone, all though not physical until the incarnation.

And a little off topic, but this typology is precisely why you see Catholics on TV carrying around a depiction of the Virgin Mary as we believe she is the Ark of the New covenant. And so that the idea of Joseph or anyone for that matter, having relations with her, is incomprehensible.

 

[susanlo]

I’d say it is always adorn when received. But you mean, outside of eating. I would like to know also. And do you think a reverence in the manner in which it is kept could constitute “adoration”? Or do you specifically mean praying before and towards the consecrated Eucharist?

I have a hard time seeing the line between veneration and adoration/worship. Where exactly does the distinction lie? I think that something can be revered as holy, but not necessarily worshiped. I am wondering when it became common practice to believe that one was worshiping/adoring the physical body of Jesus in the bread as opposed to what could be thought of as revering a holy object.

 

[Duane1966]

If that is true and necessary from God’s point of view then there should be explicit scripture with direct reference to it.

Can you show me from Scripture that this statement is God’s point of view?

 

[Duane1966]

I have a hard time seeing the line between veneration and adoration/worship. Where exactly does the distinction lie? I think that something can be revered as holy, but not necessarily worshiped. I am wondering when it became common practice to believe that one was worshiping/adoring the physical body of Jesus in the bread as opposed to what could be thought of as revering a holy object.

Well, Augustine said we must worship the Eucharist, I would say common practice from the beginning.

 

[GKC]

I have a hard time seeing the line between veneration and adoration/worship. Where exactly does the distinction lie? I think that something can be revered as holy, but not necessarily worshiped. I am wondering when it became common practice to believe that one was worshiping/adoring the physical body of Jesus in the bread as opposed to what could be thought of as revering a holy object.

The distinction lies in the point that only one thing is worthy of worship/latria: God. The confected Eucharist, in that it is the substance of Christ, is God. No created thing is worthy of worship. Hence the BVM is venerated (hyperdulia, in her case) and other worthy creatures (saints/angels are venerated, simply (dulia)…

 

[Wannano]

The distinction lies in the point that only one thing is worthy of worship/latria: God. The confected Eucharist, in that it is the substance of Christ, is God. No created thing is worthy of worship. Hence the BVM is venerated (hyperdulia, in her case) and other worthy creatures (saints/angels are venerated, simply (dulia)…

Please clarify for me, I have trouble wrapping my head around the fact that there may be a difference between the Catholic position that the confected Eucharist IS God and the perhaps Lutheran or Anglican belief in the Real Presence being that God is present but not that the consecrated host IS God. Am I right or do I misunderstand?

 

[GKC]

Please clarify for me, I have trouble wrapping my head around the fact that there may be a difference between the Catholic position that the confected Eucharist IS God and the perhaps Lutheran or Anglican belief in the Real Presence being that God is present but not that the consecrated host IS God. Am I right or do I misunderstand?

It depends. Speaking as an Anglican myself, the real presence is the real presence of God, and hence the consecrated elements are worthy of worship, in that the Eucharist is God, however that might have been done (i.e., real presence is a what, something like transubstantiation is a how). Other viewpoints are possible, as to what the concept of the real presence means. Anglicans, being a motley crew, can probably muster a few of them, Perhaps someone will explicate them here.

 

[susanlo]

The distinction lies in the point that only one thing is worthy of worship/latria: God. The confected Eucharist, in that it is the substance of Christ, is God. No created thing is worthy of worship. Hence the BVM is venerated (hyperdulia, in her case) and other worthy creatures (saints/angels are venerated, simply (dulia)…

Thank you for your answer. I wonder how one distinguishes the practice of veneration as opposed to adoration. Am I correct to understand that genuflecting before the altar is an act of worship of the physical presence of God, but kissing a statue is an act of venerating the saint? My church background doesn’t worship or venerate objects, and they both look similar to me. What actions are considered an act of worship? What actions are considered an act of veneration?

 

[Duane1966]

Thank you for your answer. I wonder how one distinguishes the practice of veneration as opposed to adoration. Am I correct to understand that genuflecting before the altar is an act of worship of the physical presence of God, but kissing a statue is an act of venerating the saint? My church background doesn’t worship or venerate objects, and they both look similar to me. What actions are considered an act of worship? What actions are considered an act of veneration?

We bow to the altar, which is veneration, because what happens there, We genuflect to the tabernacle, because Christ is physically present there. We do not worship the altar.

Veneration is respect. Adoration is worship. Any created thing can be venerated, only God (uncreated), can be adored / worshipped. If someone were to adore the altar, that would be idolatry.

 

[GKC]

Thank you for your answer. I wonder how one distinguishes the practice of veneration as opposed to adoration. Am I correct to understand that genuflecting before the altar is an act of worship of the physical presence of God, but kissing a statue is an act of venerating the saint? My church background doesn’t worship or venerate objects, and they both look similar to me. What actions are considered an act of worship? What actions are considered an act of veneration?

The distinction (I am no expert though I often play one) is between worship, on the one hand, and venerate/honor/adore on the other. Yes, as to your first comparison. One reverences the altar, with respect to the presence of the reserved sacrament, at the least; the very presence of God, in the confected sacrament.

I note again that under the Catholic understanding, one does not worship an object. Worship is an interior action, and if you might want to know if someone was “worshiping” the statue, one might ask. I can guess the reply. Understanding the distinctions help make the distinctions in what one, uninformed, might be assuming to observe. One worships God. C’est tout.

 

[Duane1966]

The distinction (I am no expert though I often play one) is between worship, on the one hand, and venerate/honor/adore on the other. Yes, as to your first comparison. One reverences the altar, with respect to the presence of the reserved sacrament, at the least; the very presence of God, in the confected sacrament.

I note again that under the Catholic understanding, one does not worship an object. Worship is an interior action, and if you might want to know if someone was “worshiping” the statue, one might ask. I can guess the reply. Understanding the distinctions help make the distinctions in what one, uninformed, might be assuming to observe. One worships God. C’est tout.

Adoration can only be given to God, since it is worship

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Thank you for your answer. I wonder how one distinguishes the practice of veneration as opposed to adoration. Am I correct to understand that genuflecting before the altar is an act of worship of the physical presence of God, but kissing a statue is an act of venerating the saint? My church background doesn’t worship or venerate objects, and they both look similar to me. What actions are considered an act of worship? What actions are considered an act of veneration?

I came from a similar background, and I know protestants who sleep with their bibles and hug their bibles. Some place it on the highest point in the house like a beloved family shelf or something. Have you seen these practice as well?

Anyway, I know they aren’t worshiping a book, they venerate it because of what it contains.

I do think there are some misled Catholics who don’t seem to understand the difference and go overboard with their veneration. But the ones who actually know their faith, do not.

Catechisms run $10 so we can all afford to buy one and educate ourselves, so there is really no excuse for our ignorance as Catholics.

 

[GKC]

Adoration can only be given to God, since it is worship

I certainly qualify my depth of knowledge, but I have seen, with out being able to cite, adoration as other than worship, in the RC terminology. But I stand corrected. Thus, caveat lector.

 

[rcwitness]

I certainly qualify my depth of knowledge, but I have seen, with out being able to cite, adoration as other than worship, in the RC terminology. But I stand corrected. Thus, caveat lector.

Maybe you are thinking of adoration sometimes called veneration. I think the Church can use veneration widely. But adoration not so.

 

[GKC]

Maybe you are thinking of adoration sometimes called veneration. I think the Church can use veneration widely. But adoration not so.

Had I eschewed the virgule, and “adore”, my escutcheon would be unbesmirched. Alas.

 

[rcwitness]

Had I eschewed the virgule, and “adore”, my escutcheon would be unbesmirched. Alas.

No doubt…

My example would be the Catechism:

103*For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord’s Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God’s Word and Christ’s Body.66

 

[commenter]

I would argue that evangelical/Protestant Christians do in fact venerate objects. Every year countless churches and individuals travel to very specific places in or around Israel, to be near approximate locations, rivers, or mountains - objects - where certain things happened in the Old or especially New Testament.

True, to some extent this is just curiosity, but all these locations are totally visible via books and the internet, for a tiny fraction of the time and money. But people travel there anyway: to venerate. I have heard reports it was a powerful spiritual experience for them to be right there, approximately around objects such as a certain upper room, a tomb, cave, a hallway close to where a certain trial may have been held, or some other holy ground.

This is all veneration and it is good. Can it be abused, taken out of proportion? sure, but at the heart this is essentially good.

 

[Duane1966]

From Bryan Cross at Calledtocommunion.com:

We venerate things that are in some sense sacred or divine. Scripture is the word of God to man (not to be confused with the Eternally Begotten Logos, who is the Second Person of the Trinity). Hence we venerate Scripture. But the Bible is not God Himself. Hence we do not give latria (adoration) to the Bible itself. The Eucharist is the Logos Himself; hence we do give latria to the consecrated Host and Precious Blood. The distinction between latria and veneration is clear in the second-century account titled The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp, which includes the following statement,

Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore;

but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples!