Eucharistic Fast before evening Divine Liturgy

[I_Thirst]

Interesting chart with fasting/abstaining guidelines here …
stjohnchrysostom.org/OurTraditions/Fasting.aspx

Perhaps this is just suggested for Lent or other fasting seasons rather than ordinary time?

What say you CAFEC, does this chart give a general overview of your particular practice?

 

[I_Thirst]

I know many members of the UGCC who fast in similar ways - again - all fasting should be done in conjunction with your Spiritual Father’s advice/wishes.

In the East fasting does not stop at the age of 60 or so ] as it does in the RC Church
.

Is this guidance given one-to-one with the Spiritual Father, or does he give general guidelines to the Church?

 

[The_Idiot]

Is this guidance given one-to-one with the Spiritual Father, or does he give general guidelines to the Church?

Remember - most of us have grown up with this guidance - children are eased gently into fasting .

Speaking for myself and myself only ] my SF talks regularly about the way I fast and he may decide that I am being too severe and will mitigate the fast for me.

It really is done on an individual basis - not all of us are able to follow the monastic type of fast. We know what is the ideal and our SF will advise us as to what we may / should do - this depends on our way of life , our responsibilities etc

 

[I_Thirst]

Remember - most of us have grown up with this guidance - children are eased gently into fasting .

Speaking for myself and myself only ] my SF talks regularly about the way I fast and he may decide that I am being too severe and will mitigate the fast for me.

It really is done on an individual basis - not all of us are able to follow the monastic type of fast. We know what is the ideal and our SF will advise us as to what we may / should do - this depends on our way of life , our responsibilities etc

Ok, mainly individual rather than something posted in the bulletin or discussed in a homily etc.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Thats a rather strict fast. I know that dairy and seafood are not part of the regular Wednesday and Friday fasts. Unless if its Lent of course.

Perhaps it just reflects a difference in praxis, but for the Orthodox, the regular Wednesday and Friday fasts are supposed to have the same restrictions as the lenten fast. That of course varies from individual to individual as priests generally do have to ease converts into fasting.

 

[The_Idiot]

Ok, mainly individual rather than something posted in the bulletin or discussed in a homily etc.

Oh the general outline will be discussed. Parishioners are always reminded as we enter a fast period - the outline will be mentioned - some people will always verge to the minimum - others will verge towards the monastic practice.

 

[I_Thirst]

Oh the general outline will be discussed. Parishioners are always reminded as we enter a fast period - the outline will be mentioned - some people will always verge to the minimum - others will verge towards the monastic practice.

I see.

I’ve just started attending an EC (UGCC), so I can perhaps expect to hear our pastor mention this, especially with the Nativity Fast beginning soon? Probably depends on the pastor, right?

Concerning the Nativity Fast, I just found last year’s CAFEC thread!

 

[OrthodoxJosh]

Perhaps it just reflects a difference in praxis, but for the Orthodox, the regular Wednesday and Friday fasts are supposed to have the same restrictions as the lenten fast. That of course varies from individual to individual as priests generally do have to ease converts into fasting.

Here I have to agree with Cavaradossi. The Wednesday and Friday fasts for Orthodox are as strict as the Lenten Fast, unless they fall on a major Feastday of our Lord, then fish, wine and oil are allowed. I’ve always been taught that the fast from Saturday night to Sunday Divine Liturgy is a total fast from all food and drink. Also, I have found that some do more and some do less, as Constantine said, according to their own ability and the Priest’s direction.

 

[5Loaves]

Here I have to agree with Cavaradossi. The Wednesday and Friday fasts for Orthodox are as strict as the Lenten Fast, unless they fall on a major Feastday of our Lord, then fish, wine and oil are allowed. I’ve always been taught that the fast from Saturday night to Sunday Divine Liturgy is a total fast from all food and drink. Also, I have found that some do more and some do less, as Constantine said, according to their own ability and the Priest’s direction.

In my Russian Greek Catholic parish we follow this same fasting describe by OrthodoxJosh in#28 . In Dec. we all receive the St. Tikhon’s Lectionary Wall Calendar (According to Revised Julian “New” Calendar) for the new year, the identical calendar given to parishoners at the Russian OCA parish I also frequent. This calendar indicates the fasts and feasts. (Happily the feast of St. Nicholas falls on the day my husband’s stamp club is having their annual Christmas dinner, so I can order the fish. ) The calendar on our parish website indicates the same fasting days and practice.

There is really quite a lot out there about the teaching on fasting and abstinence. Personally, I like the writing of Fr. Alexander Schmemann of blessed memory. One place his teaching can be found is in his wonderful book Great Lent: Journey to Pascha. The section on fasting is on googlebooks pages 49-52. (Click on “Contents” to quickly access the pages) Here and other places the practice of fasting is rightly placed within the context of the services and draws upon the language of those services in teaching about the purpose/intent of fasting and abstinence.

This book Great Lent is usually available used for very little money. I recommend it.

 

[I_Thirst]

In my Russian Greek Catholic parish we follow this same fasting describe by OrthodoxJosh in#28 . In Dec. we all receive the St. Tikhon’s Lectionary Wall Calendar (According to Revised Julian “New” Calendar) for the new year, the identical calendar given to parishoners at the Russian OCA parish I also frequent. This calendar indicates the fasts and feasts. (Happily the feast of St. Nicholas falls on the day my husband’s stamp club is having their annual Christmas dinner, so I can order the fish. ) The calendar on our parish website indicates the same fasting days and practice.

There is really quite a lot out there about the teaching on fasting and abstinence. Personally, I like the writing of Fr. Alexander Schmemann of blessed memory. One place his teaching can be found is in his wonderful book Great Lent: Journey to Pascha. The section on fasting is on googlebooks pages 49-52. (Click on “Contents” to quickly access the pages) Here and other places the practice of fasting is rightly placed within the context of the services and draws upon the language of those services in teaching about the purpose/intent of fasting and abstinence.

This book Great Lent is usually available used for very little money. I recommend it.

Excellent info, 5Loaves! Thank you for the recommendations.

 

[5Loaves]

Most ECs fast from midnight until the Divine Liturgy, right? What is the practice for evening Divine Liturgy? Does it vary among Churches?

You’ve already seen by now it varies among Churches.

Evening Divine Liturgy is uncommon in our Russian Greek Catholic parish. For it and for Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts we are encouraged to fast from late morning until Eucharist, preferably eat one small meal before mid day. These fasting standards are established for monks, we lay folk are given leeway. I previously mentioned +Fr. Schmemann’s teaching which is such a helpful guide to the purpose of any fasting, which is not because it is legislated. When I go to an evening Liturgy followed by Vespers and Matins, so I haven’t eaten since early morning, I usually do eat something after vespers. Typically I have a sandwich in the car to eat right away since the drive home is likely to be about an hour.

Also, does one follow the fasting guidelines according to rite? For example, if a Byzantine were to attend a morning Roman Catholic Mass, would he fast from midnight or just keep the one-hour fast?

As an Eastern Catholic where I receive the Holy Mystery of Eucharist is irrelevant to the fasting practice I follow as an EC. In my EC Church and parish we would follow the fasting from Vespers the night before until Eucharist in a morning Mass. I sometimes go to noon Mass and then would fast until Eucharist at the noon Mass. The evening daily Mass in the Latin Church, at least around here, is considerably earlier than is Eucharist in a Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts or some festal evening DL, which is unfortunately when we have to have DL in our commuter parish. I still will usually have a light meal in the late morning when I’m going to 5:00 or 5:30PM Mass. I have V8 which I have occasionally taken, breaking the fast, if I find that I’m getting a headache and the shakes mid afternoon, tho this hasn’t often been necessary. I do drink water. At my age I am careful not to become dehydrated.

I will still go to Mass if for some reason I have eaten either too much or too late. I just don’t go up for Eucharist. This is a choice I’m very comfortable with. On a Feast Day when we are having Liturgy in my EC parish or I’m going to the Orthodox then I am well aware of the upcoming Liturgy and am unlikely to forget and eat as I might on an ordinary day.

 

[theistgal]

This is a good thread since we had a Vespers/Liturgy last night for the Synaxis of St. Michael!

Normally I try to keep to a 3-hour fast. But sometimes due to my work schedule or prior obligations (having a late lunch with a co-worker, for example), it’s not practical, so I will give thanks to God and make use of that one-hour bare bones minimum.

 

[5Loaves]

Most ECs fast from midnight until the Divine Liturgy, right? What is the practice for evening Divine Liturgy? Does it vary among Churches?

You’ve already seen by now it varies among Churches.

Evening Divine Liturgy is uncommon in our Russian Greek Catholic parish. For it and for Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts we are encouraged to fast from late morning until Eucharist, preferably eat one small meal before mid day. These fasting standards are established for monks, we lay folk are given leeway. I previously mentioned +Fr. Schmemann’s teaching which is such a helpful guide to the purpose of any fasting, which is not because it is legislated. When I go to an evening Liturgy followed by Vespers and Matins, so I haven’t eaten since early morning, I usually do eat something after vespers. Typically I have a sandwich in the car to eat right away since the drive home is likely to be about an hour.

Also, does one follow the fasting guidelines according to rite? For example, if a Byzantine were to attend a morning Roman Catholic Mass, would he fast from midnight or just keep the one-hour fast?

As an Eastern Catholic where I receive the Holy Mystery of Eucharist is irrelevant to the fasting practice I follow as an EC. In my EC Church and parish we would follow the fasting from Vespers the night before until Eucharist in a morning Mass. I sometimes go to noon Mass and then would fast until Eucharist at the noon Mass. The evening daily Mass in the Latin Church, at least around here, is considerably earlier than is Eucharist in a Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts or some festal evening DL, which is unfortunately when we have to have DL in our commuter parish. I still will usually have a light meal in the late morning when I’m going to 5:00 or 5:30PM Mass. I have V8 which I have occasionally taken, breaking the fast, if I find that I’m getting a headache and the shakes mid afternoon, tho this hasn’t often been necessary. I do drink water. At my age I am careful not to become dehydrated.

 

[I_Thirst]

As an Eastern Catholic where I receive the Holy Mystery of Eucharist is irrelevant to the fasting practice I follow as an EC. In my EC Church and parish we would follow the fasting from Vespers the night before until Eucharist in a morning Mass. I sometimes go to noon Mass and then would fast until Eucharist at the noon Mass. The evening daily Mass in the Latin Church, at least around here, is considerably earlier than is Eucharist in a Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts or some festal evening DL, which is unfortunately when we have to have DL in our commuter parish. I still will usually have a light meal in the late morning when I’m going to 5:00 or 5:30PM Mass. I have V8 which I have occasionally taken, breaking the fast, if I find that I’m getting a headache and the shakes mid afternoon, tho this hasn’t often been necessary. I do drink water. At my age I am careful not to become dehydrated.

I will still go to Mass if for some reason I have eaten either too much or too late. I just don’t go up for Eucharist. This is a choice I’m very comfortable with. On a Feast Day when we are having Liturgy in my EC parish or I’m going to the Orthodox then I am well aware of the upcoming Liturgy and am unlikely to forget and eat as I might on an ordinary day.

Thank you for taking the time to go into details. I really appreciate it.

This is a good thread since we had a Vespers/Liturgy last night for the Synaxis of St. Michael!

Normally I try to keep to a 3-hour fast. But sometimes due to my work schedule or prior obligations (having a late lunch with a co-worker, for example), it’s not practical, so I will give thanks to God and make use of that one-hour bare bones minimum.

Thanks for chiming in, theistgal! I’m actually planning on attending tonight for St Michael, and this will be my first evening Divine Liturgy (though not my first DL).

 

[CDB1718]

I didn’t have time to read the thread carefully. Has anyone mentioned that evening Divine Liturgies are done through economia and that’s why there aren’t traditional guidelines for them?

They’re done, especially in the United States, to allow the most people to attend. The liturgical day goes from Vespers to Vespers, so traditionally one wouldn’t have Liturgy after dark on the calendar day of the feast because it’s technically the next liturgical day. There are places in the world where it is dark or light for 6 months at a time, so that is obviously a general guideline. Through economy, some parishes offer a DL in the evening to allow the most parishioners to attend. Presumably, Vespers are said after that to start the next liturgical day.

According to the books, a Roman Catholic continues to be held to the Roman rules for fasting even when attending an Eastern Catholic parish. There’s a healthy argument over how much the books apply to individual circumstances, which I don’t intend to start. Where you fall on the spectrum should be informed by your spiritual father or mother.

 

[5Loaves]

Thanks for chiming in, theistgal! I’m actually planning on attending tonight for St Michael, and this will be my first evening Divine Liturgy (though not my first DL).

S prazdnikom! on their altar feast to our sister Russian Greek Catholic parish on the isle of Manhattan the Community of the Holy Archangel Michael.

 

[5Loaves]

I didn’t have time to read the thread carefully. Has anyone mentioned that evening Divine Liturgies are done through economia and that’s why there aren’t traditional guidelines for them?

I only hinted at it. In my tiny commuter parish the *economia * is for both the clergy and the faithful.

Evening Divine Liturgy is uncommon in our Russian Greek Catholic parish. For it and for Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts we are encouraged to fast from late morning until Eucharist, preferably eat one small meal before mid day.

The liturgical day goes from Vespers to Vespers, so traditionally one wouldn’t have Liturgy after dark on the calendar day of the feast because it’s technically the next liturgical day.

Yes. However Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts is an evening service. These being in Great Lent we’re encouraged to not eat after breakfast or at least not after late morning.

According to the books, a Roman Catholic continues to be held to the Roman rules for fasting even when attending an Eastern Catholic parish. There’s a healthy argument over how much the books apply to individual circumstances, which I don’t intend to start. Where you fall on the spectrum should be informed by your spiritual father or mother.

I’m canonically EC but when I was still canonically Latin it made no sense to me to follow Latin praxis when I’d been catechized as to the intention of our fasting. I think if the faithful of the Latin Church were better catechized in general about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass many would be more likely to strive for a fuller fasting practice. When I am, rarely, in an Orthodox parish for Divine Liturgy I will have kept the fast. I prefer to be in union at that level with the rest of the faithful present. Also, very often someone will bring me antidoran.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I didn’t have time to read the thread carefully. Has anyone mentioned that evening Divine Liturgies are done through economia and that’s why there aren’t traditional guidelines for them?

Economia, latinization, or just mere practicality. Since Eastern Churches have a small presence here in North America, its not uncommon that one priest may be in charge of two parishes that has an amount of distance between them. Like here in our Eparchy, the parishes in the smaller towns of BC are a few hours apart. And usually not enough people (not just Ukrainian Catholics but the population of those towns as well) to justify a parish with a permanently assigned priest (it may have been in the past, that is why a parish was built in the first place. But in some cases they sometimes share a parish with an RC church). So the priest needs to travel some distance, and time, between parishes he serve. So its only practical that one Divine Liturgy be exclusively in the evening of a Saturday in one town, and then Sunday morning in his main parish. Depends on the proximity and the needs of the parishioners. I know of another one where the travel between parishes is about 2 hours, so there is a Sunday morning one and a Sunday afternoon for the other one.

They’re done, especially in the United States, to allow the most people to attend. The liturgical day goes from Vespers to Vespers, so traditionally one wouldn’t have Liturgy after dark on the calendar day of the feast because it’s technically the next liturgical day. There are places in the world where it is dark or light for 6 months at a time, so that is obviously a general guideline. Through economy, some parishes offer a DL in the evening to allow the most parishioners to attend. Presumably, Vespers are said after that to start the next liturgical day.

Though current canons state that Vespers fulfill the Sunday Obligation. Of course, one living an authentic Eastern life can’t make sense of that. But if one wants to apply the Western praxis, then those are the rules.

According to the books, a Roman Catholic continues to be held to the Roman rules for fasting even when attending an Eastern Catholic parish. There’s a healthy argument over how much the books apply to individual circumstances, which I don’t intend to start. Where you fall on the spectrum should be informed by your spiritual father or mother.

The advice given me is that if I am authentically living the Byzantine faith, then I should live as a Byzantine Christian, regardless of my canonical enrollment. My toddler child already receives Communion, and I do follow (as much as I can ) the fasting rules of the UGCC. But truth be told, they aren’t as strict as the Orthodox or even other Eastern Catholics. And there’s many reasons for that.

 

[5Loaves]

It just occurred to me, since I’m going tonight, that the OCF here in Berkeley has DL nearly every Tuesday at 6PM during the academic calendar.

Little Boy Lost does your OCF in the Davis area have weekly evening DL?

The group here is heavily Greek and Antiochian, whose Churches in general seem to have less strict fasting than we Russians but I’ve never asked the students here what they do on Tuesdays in terms of the fast of preparation for Eucharist.

BTW in the section on fasting on googlebooks I referred to earlier from his book Great Lent: Journey to Pascha, +Father Schmemann does address at some length “The Evening Communion”, starting on page 52. (Click on “Contents” to quickly access the pages) He is of course coming from his Russian tradition.

 

[OrthodoxJosh]

I didn’t have time to read the thread carefully. Has anyone mentioned that evening Divine Liturgies are done through economia and that’s why there aren’t traditional guidelines for them?

They’re done, especially in the United States, to allow the most people to attend. The liturgical day goes from Vespers to Vespers, so traditionally one wouldn’t have Liturgy after dark on the calendar day of the feast because it’s technically the next liturgical day. There are places in the world where it is dark or light for 6 months at a time, so that is obviously a general guideline. Through economy, some parishes offer a DL in the evening to allow the most parishioners to attend. Presumably, Vespers are said after that to start the next liturgical day.

According to the books, a Roman Catholic continues to be held to the Roman rules for fasting even when attending an Eastern Catholic parish. There’s a healthy argument over how much the books apply to individual circumstances, which I don’t intend to start. Where you fall on the spectrum should be informed by your spiritual father or mother.

I don’t think that “after dark” is a good term here, considering on Mt. Athos and most monasteries in the Orthodox Tradition, Divine Liturgy normally falls very early in the morning (before sunrise). I totally understand that the liturgical day goes from Vespers to Vespers, but being Orthodox in America, and Byzantine (meaning not of the Russian tradition) I’ve never been to an all-night vigil. What does a vigil consist of, and what part of the liturgical day would it be considered?