Eucharistic Miracle

[Luvtosew]

I’m sorry, but this simply is not true. He never said that he was talking figuratively about the eucharist in John 6. In fact, if you read the chapter, you will see that most of his disciples did not accept his words and left him. Why would they do that if he was only talking figuratively?

Jesus says “flesh” 21 times in the Gospels and the word flesh is used much more often in the whole Bible, It means, man, body

when St Paul said he had a torn in his flesh he didn’t mean a sliver of wood.

eat means to consume, to take in,

 

[paul_c]

Jesus says “flesh” 21 times in the Gospels and the word flesh is used much more often in the whole Bible, It means, man, body

when St Paul said he had a torn in his flesh he didn’t mean a sliver of wood.

eat means to consume, to take in,

Instead of selectively defining hsi words, lets look at the actual passage:

51I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”

52The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?”
53Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
59These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

The Words of Eternal Life.*
60Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
61Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
62What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?*
63It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh* is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
65And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”

66As a result of this, many [of] his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
67Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
68Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”

So it appears that many of Jesus’s original disciples had the same reaction as you did: it was too hard for them to have faith in what he said because they did not understand how he could give them his flesh to eat and his blood to drink. And they left. They would never had left if they thought he was just speaking figuratively, now would they. They never left when he said he was the vine, afterall. And that lack of faith separated them from the Church, here represented by the Apostles, whose faith in Jesus. allowed them to stay even when they didn’t understand everything.

 

[Luvtosew]

I have read that many many times and I have 3 Bibles one is a Catholic. The Church itself says we should not take things literally, but they have their own verses in which they do.

They take flesh literally in those verses to fit their communion, something so special that no other Chrisitans outside of the Catholic faith can have, they are the only ones who have Priests that can turn the host into the actual flesh of Jesus, and have his person in a momstrance. Personally I can’t believe it. Jesus gave his body (flesh and blood) up for us on the cross, why would he want to give his flesh back to us, when he
said " the flesh profits a man nothing, it is the Spirit which gives life. So why would he want us to eat his flesh,

Like I said when I take communion if is in the spiritual sense, of receiving and believing everything Christ said in the gospels and my remberance of what he did on the cross, and reaffirming my faith in him.I believe the host has been blessed and it needs to only be taken in a state of grace to as not disgrace it.

I have no problem with the way you believe it to be, but I see it differently. Jesus is no longer on the Cross, and God is everywhere.

What you are saying when you say this is pretty much the only Christians that can have eternal life are Catholic as one needs to eat his flesh witch only Catholics can do. I am a cradle Catholic, maybe not as well schooled as most of yous, but many Catholics do not take flesh literally.

maybe Jesus was putting his apostles to a test.

 

[Loved_Disciple]

I’ve heard this a few times, mostly by Rosalind Moss when defending the Catholic position on the Eucharist. About how God transformed the bread and wine into literal human flesh and blood for a doubting priest. I have a few problems w/this, firstly, this is supposed to be believed by faith, that Jesus is “sacramentally present”, secondly, in this case He is no longer “sacramentally present”, but “in the flesh”, if you will. Now we no longer have transubstantiation, but cannibalism!

The reason Jesus has given us a few Eucharistic miracles is precisely to help our weak faith. If the host turned into actual human flesh and the wine in human blood in every Mass, then faith would no longer be required.

We should be thankful for that help we’ve received from time to time.

But His flesh and blood was still 100% human, so it would most definitely be cannibalism, if it were more than “sacramentally present.” His flesh and blood were the same as ours, for He came “in the likeness of sinful flesh.” I seriously doubt that any of you would eat and drink if it were to appear and taste like human flesh and blood!

The Eucharist is definitely is 100% our Lord’s human flesh and blood; yet also, without a doubt, it’s 100% of His divinity that we partake of at Mass. His human and divine natures are now and forever inseparable.

Again, we should be thankful that He keeps His flesh and blood tasting and looking as bread and wine; otherwise the Eucharist might not be as appealing as it is.

 

[paul_c]

I have read that many many times and I have 3 Bibles one is a Catholic. The Church itself says we should not take things literally, but they have their own verses in which they do.

yes. The church tells us how to understand the bible. - when to take it literally and when to take it figuratively. It wrote the bible - it knows best how it is to be used…

They take flesh literally in those verses to fit their communion, something so special that no other Chrisitans outside of the Catholic faith can have, they are the only ones who have Priests that can turn the host into the actual flesh of Jesus, and have his person in a momstrance. Personally I can’t believe it. Jesus gave his body (flesh and blood) up for us on the cross, why would he want to give his flesh back to us, when he
said " the flesh profits a man nothing, it is the Spirit which gives life. So why would he want us to eat his flesh,

Why are you second guessing Jesus? Do you think you know better than he does? And by the way, anyone can have Catholic Communion. Its open to anyone who choses to become a member of the church and who is in the state of grace…

Like I said when I take communion if is in the spiritual sense, of receiving and believing everything Christ said in the gospels and my remberance of what he did on the cross, and reaffirming my faith in him.I believe the host has been blessed and it needs to only be taken in a state of grace to as not disgrace it.

It seems to me that you don’t believe everything Christ said in his Gospels if you don’t believe him when he said, “This is
my body, which was given up for you.” And if you don’t believe that, what is to keep you from disbelieving other teachings. Its a slippery slope to full Protestantism.

I have no problem with the way you believe it to be, but I see it differently. Jesus is no longer on the Cross, and God is everywhere.

Its not important what I believe. What IS important is what the Church teaches.

What you are saying when you say this is pretty much the only Christians that can have eternal life are Catholic as one needs to eat his flesh witch only Catholics can do. I am a cradle Catholic, maybe not as well schooled as most of yous, but many Catholics do not take flesh literally.

Its not what I said, now, is it? Its what Jesus said. If you don’t eat his body and drink his blood, you will have no life within you. Disregard what Jesus says at your risk.

maybe Jesus was putting his apostles to a test.

Sure he did. The ones who left him because they didn’t believe they could eat his body and drink his blood failed the test. The ones, like St. Peter, who stayed with him, passed their test.

Luvtosew, if i might be so bold, let me tell you a little personal history. There was a time about 10-15 years ago that when I came upon a chruch teaching that I thought didn’t make sense, I would simply assume the church was wrong and that I must be right. Then one day, by the grace of God, it occurred to me that the Church was inspired and also had millions of theologians over 2000 years that had worked through these problems. I came to realize that if I didn’t agree with what the church taught, the problem might be that i was wrong and not the church. I started to investigate why the Church taught what it taught and I was shocked to find that they had thought about many things that I simply had not considered. In light of what I found, I realized the Church was always right and that when I disagreed, it was me that was wrong. From that point onward, I always approached these situations with " what am I missing" After a while, I never found myself disagreeing with any church teaching…

 

[Luvtosew]

“So the Catholic Church wrote the bible - it knows best how it is to be used.”

See I never knew that, thanks for telling me, now I really question John 6.

So since the CC wrote the Bible and they know what verses should be used literally. I see, no wonder Protestants are so confused.

I believe God wrote the Bible and inspired men. I understand now why the CC takes some verses literaly, but Prostestants are not to.

I have faith in God the father, the Son and the Holy Spirit , but he is all I have complete faith in, if you know what I mean.

I think its good for you to be so well indocrinated into the Catholic faith. I can tell you are a very caring person and I thank you for your patience, but I do have to be comfortable with what I feel deep inside. I can’t believe something because I’m told I should, when I feel deeply that it is something I can’t accept. and to say I accept it is a lie.

I said I believe communion is receiving the Body, Blood and Divinity of Christ, (not physically) that is what I was taught and what I believed. If some sort of miracle takes place so be it, but it should take place if I believe it or not then.

Really I know you are saying this because you care, and I surely mean no disrepect for the way you believe about communion or anything else.

 

[Anthony_V]

“So the Catholic Church wrote the bible - it knows best how it is to be used.”

See I never knew that, thanks for telling me, now I really question John 6.

What he meant was, the Church compiled the Bible and set it in canon at the Council of Rome in 382 A.D. They picked those books in the first place because they reflected the doctrines they believed. The Bible was compiled to be a prayer guide, and a tool to be used at the liturgy of the Word.

So since the CC wrote the Bible and they know what verses should be used literally. I see, no wonder Protestants are so confused.

I believe God wrote the Bible and inspired men. I understand now why the CC takes some verses literaly, but Prostestants are not to.

And yet, the doctrinal interpretation of the Bible is a task assigned to the Church. Not pastor Bob down the street.

I have faith in God the father, the Son and the Holy Spirit , but he is all I have complete faith in, if you know what I mean.

I think its good for you to be so well indocrinated into the Catholic faith. I can tell you are a very caring person and I thank you for your patience, but I do have to be comfortable with what I feel deep inside. I can’t believe something because I’m told I should, when I feel deeply that it is something I can’t accept. and to say I accept it is a lie.

I said I believe communion is receiving the Body, Blood and Divinity of Christ, (not physically) that is what I was taught and what I believed. If some sort of miracle takes place so be it, but it should take place if I believe it or not then.

The beautiful thing about the Catholic faith is that it teaches what is true, even when we are unsure. The Eucharist is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ whether we believe it or not. That is a fantastic security-- that God would physically mingle with you in an act of intimacy (that not even the angels can boast), even if you have trouble believing it (but want to).

My advice for you:

1. Get yourself to your priest. Ask questions-- lots and lots of questions.
2. Get yourself to adoration. Find out for yourself whether Christ is really present in the Eucharist. Don’t rely on your feelings. Rely on God’s reality.

St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote this letter to the Smyrneans sometime between 80-110 A.D:

“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”

 

[mdcpensive1]

Luvtosew,
There are so many things I can say that I don’t know where to begin. I praise God that you are here talking with us and telling us what you know and believe.

Anyone who has faith has something very important and is a member of the body of Christ whether they know it or not. So, I must say that Jesus comes to us in a special way through His Church. He began a preparation for His Incarnation by choosing a people that would recognize Him when He came. The problem is that even though He gave us hints and revelations of how He was to come, He did not make it crystal clear in very plain words so we have to use reason and faith to see the message. He chastized the scribes and pharisees for being the teachers of the faith and not seeing His message. This is important as we all don’t want to be know as a scribe or pharisee who is blind.

For one, they did not understand many passages in Isaiah, etc that fortold things like the virgin birth, suffering messiah, and the place where the savior was to be born. They did not put two and two together to understand the whole message. They did not understand that the old testament sacraments were just a forshadowing of greater sacraments that did not have to rely on people’s actions. They did not know that the mana in the desert was a forshadowing of the spiritual feeding of the Church through His Body of Grace. They did not put together the messiah came from a town called Bethlehem that means “city of bread”. They did not connect the dots to see in Isaiah the meaning of the “blood of the grapes”. They did not understand His saying He was the Bread of Life. They did not understand the meaning of the feeding of the multitudes where Jesus says “you feed them” where the bread was multiplied. They did not understand the “bread of presence” in the temple as a forshadowing of the Eucharist.
The Jews did not allow the eating of blood because they thought the life of a person or animal was in the blood. But Jesus knowing this, now has us eating His Body and Blood to get His life into us.
The Eucharist is a progression that started in earlier covenants and culminates in the new and everlasting covenant. It is the representation of Calvary that comes down from heaven for us so we can be there and offer ourselves with that one same sacrifice of Christ who is Priest and victim.

 

[inkaneer]

I think he was talking metaphorical in John and he also said later in John that he had been talking figuratively. It has nothing to do with my senses or trust or faith in Jesus.

That is wrong absolutely wrong. Jesus was not speaking metaphorically because if He was then Jesus committed a sin. Those people, including his own disciples turned away from him after His Eucharistic discourse. They believed He was speaking literally not metaphorically. If Jesus was speaking metaphorically as you think then Jesus owed, at least to His disciples, an explanation. But He gives none other to say that His words are spirit.

When Jesus spoke of the OT manna the Jews understood Him perfectly. They knew the story of the manna in the dessert. They heard it so many times and told their children about it. They understood Jesus to be speaking literally about a material food. However, Jesus then switches over to the NT manna and the Jews are still understanding Him to be speaking literally of a material food. That is why they are so aghast when He tells them that this NT manna is His flesh. So they turn away. They turn away from their redemption. Jesus knows they misunderstood what He was saying. But He does not tell them to come back that He was not speaking literally as they thought He was. The only thing Jesus says is that His words are spirit. In other words the NT manna is a spiritual food not a material food like the OT manna. Jesus was speaking literally of a spiritual food. Spirit is not the opposite of metaphorically. Literally is the opposite of metaphorically [or figuratively] Spirit is the opposite of materal [physical, bodily]. The Eucharist is food for the soul as Jesus told the Jews their forefathers ate the OT manna but they still died but those who eat the NT mann will never die.

 

[paul_c]

“So the Catholic Church wrote the bible - it knows best how it is to be used.”

See I never knew that, thanks for telling me, now I really question John 6.

This seems a bit hostile to the Church you claim to be part of? Why is that?

So since the CC wrote the Bible and they know what verses should be used literally. I see, no wonder Protestants are so confused.

It is indeed why they are confused - they lack the context in which the scriptures are to be understood. That is Catholic tradition.

I believe God wrote the Bible and inspired men. I understand now why the CC takes some verses literaly, but Prostestants are not to.

Okay. I’ll agree with you that the books of the bible were written by inspired men - the new testament was written by Apostles and their secretaries after all. And they were Catholic. And they passed on how to understand what they wrote by word of mouth to their successors.

I have faith in God the father, the Son and the Holy Spirit , but he is all I have complete faith in, if you know what I mean.

yes. I do.

I think its good for you to be so well indocrinated into the Catholic faith. I can tell you are a very caring person and I thank you for your patience, but I do have to be comfortable with what I feel deep inside. I can’t believe something because I’m told I should, when I feel deeply that it is something I can’t accept. and to say I accept it is a lie.

No, you shouldn’t accept it blindly. What I’m saying is give the Church the benefit of the doubt and spend the necessary time to understand why It teaches what it teaches. If you automatically assume that you know something, then there is no room to learn more. A discussion just like this one is how I got on the right path…

I said I believe communion is receiving the Body, Blood and Divinity of Christ, (not physically) that is what I was taught and what I believed. If some sort of miracle takes place so be it, but it should take place if I believe it or not then.

You are not far away on this. If you believe that you are recieving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ in the eucharist, you are most of the way there. In fact, I would agree completely with the wording of this. I would only ask you what you mean by the body and blood of Christ if its not physical?

Really I know you are saying this because you care, and I surely mean no disrepect for the way you believe about communion or anything else.

Honestly, you have said nothing disrespectful. We all need help and understanding…I understand completely where you are coming from because I have been there (or somewhere close to it anyway).

 

[grannymh]

I have read that many many times and I have 3 Bibles one is a Catholic. The Church itself says we should not take things literally, but they have their own verses in which they do.

They take flesh literally in those verses to fit their communion, something so special that no other Chrisitans outside of the Catholic faith can have, they are the only ones who have Priests that can turn the host into the actual flesh of Jesus, and have his person in a momstrance. Personally I can’t believe it. Jesus gave his body (flesh and blood) up for us on the cross, why would he want to give his flesh back to us, when he
said " the flesh profits a man nothing, it is the Spirit which gives life. So why would he want us to eat his flesh,

Like I said when I take communion if is in the spiritual sense, of receiving and believing everything Christ said in the gospels and my remberance of what he did on the cross, and reaffirming my faith in him.I believe the host has been blessed and it needs to only be taken in a state of grace to as not disgrace it.

I have no problem with the way you believe it to be, but I see it differently. Jesus is no longer on the Cross, and God is everywhere.

What you are saying when you say this is pretty much the only Christians that can have eternal life are Catholic as one needs to eat his flesh witch only Catholics can do. I am a cradle Catholic, maybe not as well schooled as most of yous, but many Catholics do not take flesh literally.

maybe Jesus was putting his apostles to a test.

I am only going to say this once.
To approach Holy Communion, knowing that the Real Jesus Christ is about to unite Himself with me, is the most amazing experience I could ever have.

As God, Jesus was also human, True God and True Man. When He was preaching in John, Chapter Six what did His listeners see?

They saw Him truly present because He was there in flesh and blood. So when He referred to His flesh and blood, He was referring to His Real Presence which was not only at a particular time on earth, but His Real Presence would continue. under the appearance of Consecrated Bread. When He broke bread at the last Supper, the bread made it possible for Jesus to share His Real Presence forever through the centuries to Sunday’s Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Going from symbol to having God personally within you in a very special way is like heaven on earth.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
From the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

 

[inkaneer]

“So the Catholic Church wrote the bible - it knows best how it is to be used.”

See I never knew that, thanks for telling me, now I really question John 6.

So since the CC wrote the Bible and they know what verses should be used literally. I see, no wonder Protestants are so confused.

I believe God wrote the Bible and inspired men. I understand now why the CC takes some verses literaly, but Prostestants are not to.

I have faith in God the father, the Son and the Holy Spirit , but he is all I have complete faith in, if you know what I mean.

I think its good for you to be so well indocrinated into the Catholic faith. I can tell you are a very caring person and I thank you for your patience, but I do have to be comfortable with what I feel deep inside. I can’t believe something because I’m told I should, when I feel deeply that it is something I can’t accept. and to say I accept it is a lie.

I said I believe communion is receiving the Body, Blood and Divinity of Christ, (not physically) that is what I was taught and what I believed. If some sort of miracle takes place so be it, but it should take place if I believe it or not then.

Really I know you are saying this because you care, and I surely mean no disrepect for the way you believe about communion or anything else.

Well I can see how much you are screwed up in what you believe in Catholicism. First of all, God did not write the Bible. Men wrote it under the inspiration of God. Big difference there. Second, God established a church with the Holy Spirit to guide it into all truth. So you ask why do we listen to the church instead of going off our own way like the protestants? Because the church is guided by the holy spirit into the Truth. That’s why. Protestants go their own way as shpown by the fact that in the 500 years since the so called ‘reformation’ there are now more than 30,000 protestant denominations. Chaos reigns in protestantism and I think it is thus obvious that they are not led by the Holy Spirit. Your problem is one of obedience to the teaching of the church. Jesus told the Jews that they should listen to the Pharisees and do what the Pharisees told them to do because they sat in ‘Moses seat’. Moses seat has been replaced by the ‘Chair of Peter’ as the Early Christian writers called it.