Eucharistic Procession at Mercy Center, World Youth Day 2016

[jesusalright4me]

The Tantum Ergo / Pange Lingua overwhelms me every time I hear it sung. The Choir of King’s College has sung the common English translation—Of the Glorious Body Telling—and it’s the most profound to me, because I can actually understand it. You can listen to it here.

Woah, that is awesome. I have been looking for an English version sang to that setting of it for a long time! That’s just beautiful.

To me in comparison to Matt Maher’s, I have to say that this moves me the most. See, I can envision a Eucharistic Procession with something like this sang for the Benediction and something like Matt Maher’s sang during the actual procession, and the whole thing would likely be deeply moving to me.

 

[jesusalright4me]

Sure you’ve heard it, but I particularly think that the Adoremus In Æternum should be used more in adoration. youtu.be/N1kuLtfJxJo

 

[TheDoctor]

What an unnecessary thing to say! If 1ke handled saying what you could not, then there’s no need to say, without the slightest explanation as to why, that you would have been uncharitable to me. Now I’d like to know what you really think.

OK Gavin, since you asked.

I think that those who seek to spend time and effort to criticize something that they have not put in the effort themselves to seek knowledge in and understand (you really don’t need us for information - google is your friend) and have zero responsibility or authority for are not looking for knowledge but for vindication that their opinion is better than the Churches and that their time would be better spent on the Corporal Works of Mercy than on venting about what was done half way around the world that the good Bishop does not seem to have an issue with.

 

[wllmjoseph]

QUOTE=Gavin_Doughty;14111030]Your concerns would be well placed if the liturgical documents placed all forms of music on even terrain. But they don’t: they give express preference for Gregorian chant where it is able to be accomplished. The fathers laid out a hierarchy of acceptability when it comes to music, though “the Church approves of all forms of true art having the needed qualities, and admits them into divine worship” (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 112).

Gavin_Doughty,
Let us agree to disagree. My concern is that if only Traditional or Contemporary music is allowed than we will loose some individuals. I do concede your point that liturgical documents express a preference for Gregorian chant or Traditional music. I believe the key word is “preference”. If we are so rigid that only one type of music will be used than yes we will loose people. I don’t agree with notion that a Mass or Catholic service where Traditional music is played is somehow worship on a higher form than a Mass or Catholic service where Contemporary music is played. That is my opinion.
For what it is worth I believe that both Traditional and Contemporary music should available. Just as I don’t agree is only Traditional music is available likewise I don’t agree when only Contemporary music is available. Both Traditional and Contemporary music are beautiful and both have their place in the Divine Liturgy as was as Eucharistic Processions or Benedictions.

 

[Tannhauser_1509]

OK Gavin, since you asked.

I think that those who seek to spend time and effort to criticize something that they have not put in the effort themselves to seek knowledge in and understand (you really don’t need us for information - google is your friend) and have zero responsibility or authority for are not looking for knowledge but for vindication that their opinion is better than the Churches and that their time would be better spent on the Corporal Works of Mercy than on venting about what was done half way around the world that the good Bishop does not seem to have an issue with.

Okay. I’m glad you got that out of your system.

I don’t know what to say except that what you say about my motives is untrue. When I want my opinions vindicated, I go to my mother. This forum is not my mother, and I knew that coming in, which is precisely why I have tried to make an adequate defense of my opinion, which you haven’t actually addressed.

 

[Tannhauser_1509]

Gavin_Doughty,
Let us agree to disagree. My concern is that if only Traditional or Contemporary music is allowed than we will loose some individuals. I do concede your point that liturgical documents express a preference for Gregorian chant or Traditional music. I believe the key word is “preference”. If we are so rigid that only one type of music will be used than yes we will loose people. I don’t agree with notion that a Mass or Catholic service where Traditional music is played is somehow worship on a higher form than a Mass or Catholic service where Contemporary music is played. That is my opinion.
For what it is worth I believe that both Traditional and Contemporary music should available. Just as I don’t agree is only Traditional music is available likewise I don’t agree when only Contemporary music is available. Both Traditional and Contemporary music are beautiful and both have their place in the Divine Liturgy as was as Eucharistic Processions or Benedictions.

Those who refuse to enter the church because they don’t like the music being played have not been touched yet by grace to know the splendor of our Lord, which does not depend on their feelings. Do we want a bunch of entitled converts, or do we want to evangelize so as to show what it means truly to love Christ and sacrifice all for his sake?

When we use music in the Mass, it is to facilitate an air of letting go of one’s emotions in service of the spirit to the Lord. Music at church is not for our feelings; it’s so that we will be drawn to seek what is outside of ourselves. This can only be accomplished if the music is truly artful and truly unique in the natural realm.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

The worship wars never end. Worship has become so individualized in the west that it become reduced mere taste. This is why these debates will always go no where. There’s no agreements on what is beautiful and good.

 

[wllmjoseph]

Those who refuse to enter the church because they don’t like the music being played have not been touched yet by grace to know the splendor of our Lord, which does not depend on their feelings. Do we want a bunch of entitled converts, or do we want to evangelize so as to show what it means truly to love Christ and sacrifice all for his sake?

When we use music in the Mass, it is to facilitate an air of letting go of one’s emotions in service of the spirit to the Lord. Music at church is not for our feelings; it’s so that we will be drawn to seek what is outside of ourselves. This can only be accomplished if the music is truly artful and truly unique in the natural realm.

Gavin,
All of your points are valid. You started the thread it was because at World Your Day at a Eucharistic Procession Contemporary music was used as opposed to Traditional music. There are times when Traditional music is more appropriate than Contemporary but that does not make Contemporary any less valid than Traditional music. If someone is able to enter into a deeper prayer experience in the Mass with Contemporary music as opposed to Traditional music why should they be denied that experience due to the face that Traditional music is preferred
I know that you came from on Evangelical Christian background and as such the majority of music that you were accustomed praying / hearing at a church services was Contemporary. . I would imagine that you came to have a deeper appreciation for Traditional music when you were exposed to the Catholic church. For me personally I am able to enter into a deeper prayer experience at Mass when Contemporary music is used. My participation in the Mass is greater with Contemporary music than Traditional music. As a church we need to be open to both Traditional and Contemporary music.

 

[eddie_too]

in Gavin’s defense, we are all at different stages in our faith/life journeys. he is at a stage that led him to ask this question.

if we others are at different stages of the journey, we should still try to help gavin along the Way.

to gavin i would say, do not let your emotions be aroused by minor annoyances. i believe someone pointed you to Church documents related to your concerns, but even those are not definitive nor integral to your faith. it is the development of your heart and soul in love through prayer, good works i.e. the corporal and spiritual works of mercy, the sharing of the world’s resources placed under your control and the practice of self-denial in small ways is sufficient, that should be your focus.

rituals and rules are fine and most often good and necessary, but they should never lead us to be worried about their precision and adherence to norms which are always subject in some manner to interpretation. they should never be allowed to come between us and love.

 

[eddie_too]

in Gavin’s defense, we are all at different stages in our faith/life journeys. he is at a stage that led him to ask this question.

if we others are at different stages of the journey, we should still try to help gavin along the Way.

to gavin i would say, do not let your emotions be aroused by minor annoyances. i believe someone pointed you to Church documents related to your concerns, but even those are not definitive nor integral to your faith. it is the development of your heart and soul in love through prayer, good works i.e. the corporal and spiritual works of mercy, the sharing of the world’s resources placed under your control and the practice of self-denial in small ways is sufficient, that should be your focus.

rituals and rules are fine and most often good and necessary, but they should never lead us to be worried about their precision and adherence to norms which are always subject in some manner to interpretation. they should never be allowed to come between us and love.

to everyone, i hope the above is not too pompous, i fear it might be perceived in that manner. but i recognize and appreciate gavin’s concerns.

 

[Tannhauser_1509]

in Gavin’s defense, we are all at different stages in our faith/life journeys. he is at a stage that led him to ask this question.

if we others are at different stages of the journey, we should still try to help gavin along the Way.

to gavin i would say, do not let your emotions be aroused by minor annoyances. i believe someone pointed you to Church documents related to your concerns, but even those are not definitive nor integral to your faith. it is the development of your heart and soul in love through prayer, good works i.e. the corporal and spiritual works of mercy, the sharing of the world’s resources placed under your control and the practice of self-denial in small ways is sufficient, that should be your focus.

rituals and rules are fine and most often good and necessary, but they should never lead us to be worried about their precision and adherence to norms which are always subject in some manner to interpretation. they should never be allowed to come between us and love.

Thank you very much. It is true that I am nit-picky and scrupulous when it comes to things like this. If I’ve hyper-analyzed the situation, then that’s my fault. I’m still adjusting to having changed spiritual lanes, so to speak, in converting from Evangelicalism.

But I like to have conversations in this area, whether it’s with friends or family members or even on a forum like this, because I do think it is conducive to giving me a greater sense of sympathy.

 

[Tannhauser_1509]

The worship wars never end. Worship has become so individualized in the west that it become reduced mere taste. This is why these debates will always go no where. There’s no agreements on what is beautiful and good.

I read The Seven Storey Mountain, by Thomas Merton, recently. The man goes after Protestantism pretty heavily, and though I don’t always agree with the belittling tone that Merton uses sometimes, I am still inspired that there was such distinctiveness in Catholic culture at the time Merton was experiencing his conversion.

I think we’re at the opposite end of where we were pre-Vatican II: the Church in Merton’s time was still holding on to the spirit of Trent, which sought to set apart Catholicism from Protestantism in the most drastic way the Council could. Now, many elements of Protestant culture have seeped into Catholicism in the name of ecumenism, and this is where the confusion starts, when lines are blurred and non-Catholics wonder what the real difference is between what they experience on a regular Sunday and what we Catholics experience in the Mass. I believe there ought to be an unequivocal difference.

This difference is hard to maintain when folk hymns composed by Protestants are sung during a Catholic Mass.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

I read The Seven Storey Mountain, by Thomas Merton, recently. The man goes after Protestantism pretty heavily, and though I don’t always agree with the belittling tone that Merton uses sometimes, I am still inspired that there was such distinctiveness in Catholic culture at the time Merton was experiencing his conversion.

I think we’re at the opposite end of where we were pre-Vatican II: the Church in Merton’s time was still holding on to the spirit of Trent, which sought to set apart Catholicism from Protestantism in the most drastic way the Council could. Now, many elements of Protestant culture have seeped into Catholicism in the name of ecumenism, and this is where the confusion starts, when lines are blurred and non-Catholics wonder what the real difference is between what they experience on a regular Sunday and what we Catholics experience in the Mass. I believe there ought to be an unequivocal difference.

This difference is hard to maintain when folk hymns composed by Protestants are sung during a Catholic Mass.

In my opinion, the issues with the Tridentine liturgy would have been fixed by celebrating it in the vernacular and in dialogue form. That way, the laity would actually participate in the liturgy instead of practicing their private devotion. Western Rite Orthodox celebrate the mass that way. Unfortunately, Rome's canons regarding the Tridentine liturgy forbid its celebration in the vernacular (in the Orthodox mindset, some canons are housecleaning rules and thereby do not have the weight of dogma). The only legal way to celebrate the liturgy in the vernacular is to create another liturgy entirely, which is exactly what happened.

 

[Tannhauser_1509]

In my opinion, the issues with the Tridentine liturgy would have been fixed by celebrating it in the vernacular and in dialogue form. That way, the laity would actually participate in the liturgy instead of practicing their private devotion. Western Rite Orthodox celebrate the mass that way. Unfortunately, Rome’s canons regarding the Tridentine liturgy forbid its celebration in the vernacular (in the Orthodox mindset, some canons are housecleaning rules and thereby do not have the weight of dogma). The only legal way to celebrate the liturgy in the vernacular is to create another liturgy entirely, which is exactly what happened.

We’re going a little afield now, I think.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

We’re going a little afield now, I think.

Ah, but these issues are corrected

 

[Tannhauser_1509]

Ah, but these issues are corrected

I was referring to the topic of conversation on the forum.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

I was referring to the topic of conversation on the forum.

It was fun while it lasted.

 

[casslean]

I hope I’m not resurrecting a dead topic, but I did want to chime in, for one reason:

I was there.

I was in the Mercy Centre for the whole Night of Mercy, including the Eucharistic Procession, and I can tell you, the music chosen was beautiful, completely appropriate to the moment, and only added to the experience. They were not “Protestant” songs - they were Christian songs, sung to glorify God.

You can have a preference for one type of music, or one type of procession, or one type of service, and that’s fine. But recognize that it is your preference - it is not a “better” way of worshipping. There were 25,000 youth in that arena on that night, kneeling on cement floors and in stadium seating, all showing reverence for Jesus Christ. It was amazing. It was powerful. And it spoke to the youth, a youth who increasingly feel ignored and disconnected from the whole world - including the church. Shouldn’t we celebrate that, rather than criticize it because we might prefer something different?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Well, to be honest with you, at times I am ashamed that I am so bitter against contemporary Christian music, because it usually involves me being a bit of a kill-joy. But I come from an Evangelical, non-denominational background, where the aim of singing in my former church was usually keeping with the times and with younger audiences, and telling the older members to shut-up about it and take it for the sake of Christ. Also, there is a tendency for lyrics in modern songs to be theologically shallow and sentimental. Also, they’re highly instrumental, and many are awkward to sing without instruments; whereas an organ is almost always dispensable and in service to the voice. But if contemporary music does exist that can express the glory of God and the depths of the gospel to a truly spiritually edifying extent, then I may have to change my views.

My thing is: what more is there really to add to the musical tradition of the Western Church (Gregorian chant and polyphony)? If either of those two is available for use, then I’d say there’s just no debate to be had. What do you say?

Music is the worst subject to argue about: there’s never an end in sight. But I enjoy discussing it, nevertheless.

Gavin, I feel your pain. This contemporary stuff is not to my liking either, and definitely not in tandem with the charismatic stuff that goes with it in a lot of places these days. If I had to choose one of these, I’d go with the contemporary over the charismatic, but it’s hard to find one without the other; and it’s even rarer to find a traditional setting anywhere. That said, is it worth fighting over? Maybe not, not unless you have a receptive ear with your priest, your bishop and a bunch of laypersons who are supportive. Otherwise, you, me, the TLM and Eastern Church crowd are those ‘hated neo-traditionalists’ the Pope railed against.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I hope I’m not resurrecting a dead topic, but I did want to chime in, for one reason:

I was there.

I was in the Mercy Centre for the whole Night of Mercy, including the Eucharistic Procession, and I can tell you, the music chosen was beautiful, completely appropriate to the moment, and only added to the experience. They were not “Protestant” songs - they were Christian songs, sung to glorify God.

You can have a preference for one type of music, or one type of procession, or one type of service, and that’s fine. But recognize that it is your preference - it is not a “better” way of worshipping. There were 25,000 youth in that arena on that night, kneeling on cement floors and in stadium seating, all showing reverence for Jesus Christ. It was amazing. It was powerful. And it spoke to the youth, a youth who increasingly feel ignored and disconnected from the whole world - including the church. Shouldn’t we celebrate that, rather than criticize it because we might prefer something different?

Casslean,

I’m glad you had a great experience worshipping our Lord. However, I think myself and Gavin have a similar issue with it. The problem I see is this, we are called to worship in spirit and in Truth. Are feelings of upliftedness and an experience of transcendence enough that theology and Patristic tradition can be reduced or even removed? If so, what makes the experiences at a Catholic event objectively better than any experience at a Pentecostal rally or a Baptist tent revival, or even a great concert? Some people have a spiritual experience with Jimmy Swaggart and other faith healers - can I say God did not work through these men? Not definitively. However, I would tell them to re-examine the totality of the persons they are supporting with their attendance; and their experience in the context of the fullness of the Faith.