European Catholicism

[palmas85]

I recently posted that it appears that in many once staunchly Catholic European countries, Catholicism has been pretty much abandoned to a great degree. I was called on this statement so, I decided to post some stats gleaned from various polls taken. Let us remember that in Polls of this sort the number that say they attend Mass is usually about twice that actually do. Recent studies in the US and Canada saw that if 40% said they attended Mass the true figure was closer to 20-25% with similar results coming out of Western Europe. With that in mind lets look at a few figures

Malta 84% The shining star
Ireland 71%, slipping badly, the latest polls show it to be around 50% I posted the higher figure as it compares with the same time frame as the other estimates
Poland 60% the only country which has showed an increase since the 80’s
Italy 48% Really scary when you think about it
Spain 30% even scarier
Austria 28%
Luxemburg and Germany tied with 27%
Belgium 26%
Switzerland 23%
The Netherlands 19%
France 12% :bigyikes: :bigyikes:

When you factor in the half that say they attend when they don’t, the figures are truly horrific and I feel are the reason that the Holy Father has made the re-vitalization of Catholicism in Europe a top priority of his pontificate.

These figures are from the World values Survey with the latest results from 2000.

 

[yinekka]

…in many once staunchly Catholic European countries, Catholicism has been pretty much abandoned to a great degree

You don’t have to go beyond population ratio per head of population in these countries to prove that Catholicism has been abandoned in these countries.

 

[bobzills]

…in many once staunchly Catholic European countries, Catholicism has been pretty much abandoned to a great degree

You don’t have to go beyond population ratio per head of population in these countries to prove that Catholicism has been abandoned in these countries.

Why have so many people neglected their Catholic faith? On the other hand, I read that Islam is growing by leaps and bounds. The Muslims in our area have five or six children per family. Do Muslims love having children more than European Catholics do?

 

[Dempsey1919]

Europe will become an Islamic continent. The muslim populations are growing rapidly because of immigration and birth rates. Christians have far fewer children than they should.

Imagine how much Catholicism would grow if all Catholics didn’t use birth control? Most Catholics would have six children, and would go on to have 36 grandchildren, and 72 great grandchildren etc.

Not everyone would have six children but this just illustrates my point, especially when you consider that there are 1 billion Catholics worldwide.

 

[Rawb]

Why have so many people neglected their Catholic faith? On the other hand, I read that Islam is growing by leaps and bounds. The Muslims in our area have five or six children per family. Do Muslims love having children more than European Catholics do?

Imagine how much Catholicism would grow if all Catholics didn’t use birth control? Most Catholics would have six children, and would go on to have 36 grandchildren, and 72 great grandchildren etc.

So we’d have 72 lukewarm Catholics?

I think you’re presupposing that not using birth control would mean they’d be active and dedicated Catholics in other areas of life, but then obviously the answer lies not in having more Catholic children, but in having active and dedicated Catholics.

Catholicism needs to remind Catholics that it is worth it, and that it is serious. Islam grows because it expects something from those who follow it. You rarely meet a lukewarm or cafeteria muslem. Islam teaches it’s followers that their actions do matter, that there are consequences, that they do need to step up or ship out. If Catholicism adopted such an attitude the respect that Catholics have for Holy Mother Church would grow, and so would the percentage of strong Catholics.

Who would then have more children, who would be good, devout Catholics…

 

[KingAlfred]

I recently posted that it appears that in many once staunchly Catholic European countries, Catholicism has been pretty much abandoned to a great degree. I was called on this statement so, I decided to post some stats gleaned from various polls taken. Let us remember that in Polls of this sort the number that say they attend Mass is usually about twice that actually do. Recent studies in the US and Canada saw that if 40% said they attended Mass the true figure was closer to 20-25% with similar results coming out of Western Europe. With that in mind lets look at a few figures

Malta 84% The shining star
Ireland 71%, slipping badly, the latest polls show it to be around 50% I posted the higher figure as it compares with the same time frame as the other estimates
Poland 60% the only country which has showed an increase since the 80’s
Italy 48% Really scary when you think about it
Spain 30% even scarier
Austria 28%
Luxemburg and Germany tied with 27%
Belgium 26%
Switzerland 23%
The Netherlands 19%
France 12% :bigyikes: :bigyikes:

When you factor in the half that say they attend when they don’t, the figures are truly horrific and I feel are the reason that the Holy Father has made the re-vitalization of Catholicism in Europe a top priority of his pontificate.

These figures are from the World values Survey with the latest results from 2000.

My overal impression is that Western Europe has abandoned Christianity and has become a moral wasteland, as a result. In another 50 years or so, Europe will be mostly Muslim, anyway. That’s too bad. Those of us who cherish our Western Christian heritage will see the material aspects of it appropriated by Islam.

 

[eelpis]

I live in Western Europe and I can tell you that the days of secularization are beginning to fade, people everywhere have an interest in religion and many ask questions and find it interesting when I say I’m a Catholic. Our culture is still Christian but many don’t think of it in day to day life. A new generation is reacting to the exesses of the -68 generation. The result in the Church is evident many young vocations to mostly “traditional” contemplative orders. Young zealous priests. Reverent liturgy. An assertive Catholic identity among young people.

 

[KingAlfred]

Why have so many people neglected their Catholic faith? On the other hand, I read that Islam is growing by leaps and bounds. The Muslims in our area have five or six children per family. Do Muslims love having children more than European Catholics do?

European liberalism is perhaps the most self-destructive in the world. Since the end of the Cold War, Western Europe has gone from complacency to apathy to self-annihilation. America will probably have to bail it out, again, someday. I truly believe Islam will conquer it from within.

 

[KingAlfred]

I live in Western Europe and I can tell you that the days of secularization are beginning to fade, people everywhere have an interest in religion and many ask questions and find it interesting when I say I’m a Catholic. Our culture is still Christian but many don’t think of it in day to day life. A new generation is reacting to the exesses of the -68 generation. The result in the Church is evident many young vocations to mostly “traditional” contemplative orders. Young zealous priests. Reverent liturgy. An assertive Catholic identity among young people.

Praise God. I sure hope you’re right. What country?

 

[thistle]

I recently posted that it appears that in many once staunchly Catholic European countries, Catholicism has been pretty much abandoned to a great degree. I was called on this statement so, I decided to post some stats gleaned from various polls taken. Let us remember that in Polls of this sort the number that say they attend Mass is usually about twice that actually do. Recent studies in the US and Canada saw that if 40% said they attended Mass the true figure was closer to 20-25% with similar results coming out of Western Europe. With that in mind lets look at a few figures

Malta 84% The shining star
Ireland 71%, slipping badly, the latest polls show it to be around 50% I posted the higher figure as it compares with the same time frame as the other estimates
Poland 60% the only country which has showed an increase since the 80’s
Italy 48% Really scary when you think about it
Spain 30% even scarier
Austria 28%
Luxemburg and Germany tied with 27%
Belgium 26%
Switzerland 23%
The Netherlands 19%
France 12% :bigyikes: :bigyikes:

When you factor in the half that say they attend when they don’t, the figures are truly horrific and I feel are the reason that the Holy Father has made the re-vitalization of Catholicism in Europe a top priority of his pontificate.

These figures are from the World values Survey with the latest results from 2000.

I’ve just spotted your thread. I’m not sure if its the thread based on what you said to me or not in the other thread. If its not in relation to what you said to me then accept my apologies.

What you said: "Europeans have also pretty much abandoned Christianity to a great degree."

I guess its actually a different thread because this one you opened is not only just about Catholicism but about Mass attendence whereas your previous comment to me was about the decline of Christianity in Europe which is different.
Christianity in Europe consists of Catholics and non-Catholic Christians so any source information and comments from you would need to take the whole of Christianity into account and need to be more recent than 8 years ago.

Again, if I’m wrong and this thread has nothing to do with what you said to me in the other thread, I offer my apologies.

 

[LilyM]

So we’d have 72 lukewarm Catholics?

I think you’re presupposing that not using birth control would mean they’d be active and dedicated Catholics in other areas of life, but then obviously the answer lies not in having more Catholic children, but in having active and dedicated Catholics.

Catholicism needs to remind Catholics that it is worth it, and that it is serious. Islam grows because it expects something from those who follow it. You rarely meet a lukewarm or cafeteria muslem. Islam teaches it’s followers that their actions do matter, that there are consequences, that they do need to step up or ship out. If Catholicism adopted such an attitude the respect that Catholics have for Holy Mother Church would grow, and so would the percentage of strong Catholics.

Who would then have more children, who would be good, devout Catholics…

I’ve met lukewarm Muslims all right - or those calling themselves Muslim who might drink alcohol, eat the odd bit of tasty swine and not say their prayers five times a day - or any times a day. In fact I went out with one for a while (mind you I was a lukewarm Catholic at the time, so I guess it was a good fit )

 

[Timothysis]

Why have so many people neglected their Catholic faith? On the other hand, I read that Islam is growing by leaps and bounds. The Muslims in our area have five or six children per family. Do Muslims love having children more than European Catholics do?

People often fail to remember that the first World War destroyed Europe in many more ways than one. Hope was destroyed along with millions of lives. The second World War merely put the nails in the coffin. How do you just go back to how things were when you’ve experienced something like that twice in your life? Many like to blame Vatican II for the loss of faith, but the post-war society and the madness of the '60s had everything to do with it.

 

[Dempsey1919]

People often fail to remember that the first World War destroyed Europe in many more ways than one. Hope was destroyed along with millions of lives. The second World War merely put the nails in the coffin. How do you just go back to how things were when you’ve experienced something like that twice in your life? Many like to blame Vatican II for the loss of faith, but the post-war society and the madness of the '60s had everything to do with it.

Great point.

My priest said exactly the same thing. He believes that the traumas of the War caused people to want to change everything. He has said that the baby boomer generation wanted to change the world, and let their hair down.

He also said that had Vatican II happened in the 1940’s or 1950’s, nobody would really question the Council. He thinks the reason for many of the radical changes in the aftermath of the Council were caused more by changes in society than by the Council mandates.

 

[Timothysis]

He thinks the reason for many of the radical changes in the aftermath of the Council were caused more by changes in society than by the Council mandates.

Precisely. What do you think had a more explosive reaction in the world, the Vatican II council, or the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan show in 1964? Woodstock didn’t happen because of liturgical changes.

 

[bobzills]

Many like to blame Vatican II for the loss of faith, but the post-war society and the madness of the '60s had everything to do with it.

Did you say the madness of the 60’s? Wasn’t the Vatican II council held in the 60’s?

 

[Augustine]

Again, if I’m wrong and this thread has nothing to do with what you said to me in the other thread, I offer my apologies.

The thread is focusing on Catholic Western European countries, as the thread title states.

 

[palmas85]

I’ve just spotted your thread. I’m not sure if its the thread based on what you said to me or not in the other thread. If its not in relation to what you said to me then accept my apologies.

What you said: "Europeans have also pretty much abandoned Christianity to a great degree."

I guess its actually a different thread because this one you opened is not only just about Catholicism but about Mass attendence whereas your previous comment to me was about the decline of Christianity in Europe which is different.
Christianity in Europe consists of Catholics and non-Catholic Christians so any source information and comments from you would need to take the whole of Christianity into account and need to be more recent than 8 years ago.

Again, if I’m wrong and this thread has nothing to do with what you said to me in the other thread, I offer my apologies.

I really think you know exactly what I am talking about Thistle. When I say Christianity, I will generally mean Catholicism as I don’t really consider every sect that claims to be Christian to actually be so.

Yes this particular poll focused on mass attendance which like it or not is about the best way to determine whether or not catholicism is thriving or declining since Mass attendance is intrinsically tied to the faith unlike in many other Christian communities. Also this particular poll included a survey on Protestant attendance at services which was pretty close to being equally bad. But since I really don’t worry too much about what the separated brethren do in their communities, I didn’t feel the need to include those results as well. As far as I am concerned they chose to cut themselves off from the Church. No one made them do it.

I agree, I would like to see a more recent poll also and see if the decline has continued or been reversed. However since the Holy Father himself has directly referred to this problem, I would doubt very much that the trend has been reversed…

 

[Timothysis]

Did you say the madness of the 60’s? Wasn’t the Vatican II council held in the 60’s?

The madness of the 60’s had its genesis in the music and culture of the 1950s. Groups like the Beatles and Rolling Stones were big time into the rock and roll of the 50’s and the “rebel” image of people like Marlon Brando and James Dean. These were the people who would lead the culture of the 1960’s.

I mean, think about it. Was Marilyn Monroe a huge star because of her acting or singing? No, it was about her sexuality and she wasn’t the only one. Also, I read a good article once about the cultural change in the 60s and it said don’t underestimate the impact that Playboy magazine had on society. Vatican II ended in 1965. Do you seriously think that the seeds of upheaval that we saw in the 60s weren’t sown until 1965?

And I’ve never understood why people would stop going to Mass, practice birth control, have indescriminate sex, abuse drugs and alcohol all because the Church changed the discipline of the liturgy. We are all very naive if we believe that all Catholics before Vatican II completely practiced and followed their faith.

 

[thistle]

I really think you know exactly what I am talking about Thistle. When I say Christianity, I will generally mean Catholicism as I don’t really consider every sect that claims to be Christian to actually be so.

Yes this particular poll focused on mass attendance which like it or not is about the best way to determine whether or not catholicism is thriving or declining since Mass attendance is intrinsically tied to the faith unlike in many other Christian communities. Also this particular poll included a survey on Protestant attendance at services which was pretty close to being equally bad. But since I really don’t worry too much about what the separated brethren do in their communities, I didn’t feel the need to include those results as well. As far as I am concerned they chose to cut themselves off from the Church. No one made them do it.

I agree, I would like to see a more recent poll also and see if the decline has continued or been reversed. However since the Holy Father himself has directly referred to this problem, I would doubt very much that the trend has been reversed…

I am Catholic and like you I would want all Christians to be Catholics but in Europe (as in America) that is not the case so if you are talking about the decline of Christianity you must include all Christian groups. Yes you should exclude sects but the mainstream non-Catholic Christian religions are not sects. Sects are a small minority. Before converting I was a born and brought up Methodist. I considered myself a Christian and so did the Catholic Church as it does Lutherans, Anglicans, Baptists and others.

With regard to Mass attendence a decline or rise is not a decline or rise in Catholicsim but rather lukewarm as opposed to devout but in both cases still Catholic.

 

[palmas85]

I am Catholic and like you I would want all Christians to be Catholics but in Europe (as in America) that is not the case so if you are talking about the decline of Christianity you must include all Christian groups. Yes you should exclude sects but the mainstream non-Catholic Christian religions are not sects. Sects are a small minority. Before converting I was a born and brought up Methodist. I considered myself a Christian and so did the Catholic Church as it does Lutherans, Anglicans, Baptists and others.

With regard to Mass attendence a decline or rise is not a decline or rise in Catholicsim but rather lukewarm as opposed to devout but in both cases still Catholic.

I am afraid not Thistle. A Catholic is required to attend Mass. It is not optional as some apparently believe. The failure to attend Mass is an indicator that the person is more than just as you phrased it a “lukewatm” Catholic’ In actuality, a Catholic who stops attending Mass jas in effect rejected Catholic teaching. By rejecting teaching that person has rejected the faith.