European Catholicism

[DAPDN]

Cinette, I’m not going to discuss political science or political facts anymore. I rested my case in what concerns to what is, in my opinion, the correct classification of the Portuguese Authoritarian Regime. Now, whoever may want to search and know more about what me and WH1988 said about this subject, will certainly find a lot more than what the Average Joe takes for granted on this matter, and probably, will be amazed at the results of it.

I just hope your husband has completely left any kind of Communism sympathy behind, and hope that you did so, too. Because that’s a strong obstacle for your spiritual progress towards Catholic orthodoxy. As you may know, Communist ideals, which are based on the dialetic-materialistic method of thinking, are completely incompatible with the Catholic Faith. Now, I don’t remember what Vatican Document states that, but I’ll ask WH1988, which in the first place, showed me the document.

I pray that you and your husband may abandon any slightly kind of sympathy towards Communism still left in your souls.

 

[Cinette]

Cinette, I’m not going to discuss political science or political facts anymore. I rested my case in what concerns to what is, in my opinion, the correct classification of the Portuguese Authoritarian Regime. Now, whoever may want to search and know more about what me and WH1988 said about this subject, will certainly find a lot more than what the Average Joe takes for granted on this matter, and probably, will be amazed at the results of it.

I just hope your husband has completely left any kind of Communism sympathy behind, and hope that you did so, too. Because that’s a strong obstacle for your spiritual progress towards Catholic orthodoxy. As you may know, Communist ideals, which are based on the dialetic-materialistic method of thinking, are completely incompatible with the Catholic Faith. Now, I don’t remember what Vatican Document states that, but I’ll ask WH1988, which in the first place, showed me the document.

I pray that you and your husband may abandon any slightly kind of sympathy towards Communism still left in your souls.

Have no fear friend - we have abandoned all sympathy for communism. However, I stand by the evidence of my witness.

In a biography of St Ignatius of Loyola I read that he was deeply concerned with the calibre of candidates for the priesthood in Portugal. He set very high standards. Perhaps many opted for the priesthood to escape poverty - they did not have a true vocation.

When all is said and done I am totally committed to the Catholic Church and would like to see Portugal also committed to the Church. :yup:

I long to see my Portuguese friends come to experience a deep personal relationship with Jesus. I pray for them. I can’t tell them that because they would roll their eyes. But I do urge them to place their trust in the Lord. :byzsoc:

 

[DAPDN]

The problem with your “witness” is that at the time he witnessed the facts, his vision and judgement was not an impartial or neutral one. I have better witnesses, that have never been into politics in their whole lifes, that just managed to live their normal lifes and try to prosper surrounded by all the circunstances which characterized that past time. I prefer to trust those witnesses, as I wasn’t even born at that time, because of their impartial and not influenced judgement, and so far, I think they always gave me a good, balanced view of how life was in the “Estado Novo”.

 

[Cinette]

The problem with your “witness” is that at the time he witnessed the facts, his vision and judgement was not an impartial or neutral one. I have better witnesses, that have never been into politics in their whole lifes, that just managed to live their normal lifes and try to prosper surrounded by all the circunstances which characterized that past time. I prefer to trust those witnesses, as I wasn’t even born at that time, because of their impartial and not influenced judgement, and so far, I think they always gave me a good, balanced view of how life was in the “Estado Novo”.

You said it - you were not even born at that time!.

I was talking about what ***I ***witnessed. “his vision and judgement” - whose vision and judgement??

It is your choice to believe your witnesses who “try to prosper surrounded by all the circumstances which characterized that past time” places them squarely in the middle class who, seldom criticised the Estado Novo. There were many good people that lived their lives that way and had a good time. They didn’t “get involved”. Others, had a deep concern for the plight of the suffering class. That is the way life is and the way people choose to be.

I am pleased that you are an active and committed Catholic and hope you will sew many good seeds of Faith.

Beijinhos

 

[DAPDN]

Well, you are not portuguese, and have only made trips to Portugal. It’s always very different, no matter how many times you visited a country, to live there and to make a trip to that country. I was refering to your husband, in the first place.

Pax Christi!

 

[Cinette]

Well, you are not portuguese, and have only made trips to Portugal. It’s always very different, no matter how many times you visited a country, to live there and to make a trip to that country. I was refering to your husband, in the first place.

Pax Christi!

I once worked with a number of Portuguese colleagues here in Johannesburg and we used to sit together with other colleagues as well in the dinning room and on many occasions my Portuguese colleagues used to say I was more Portuguese than they were!:clapping: :dancing:

I agree with you that I am not living in Portugal and I am not experiencing it day to day but I did live in Mocambique for 12 years and that was pretty much an authentic experience.

We visited Portugal many times sometimes for lengthy periods before you were a twinkle in your Mother’s eye and believe me every word in my post is true. You are obviously influenced by your environment and your family and friends.

However, you cannot ignore history. Have an enquiring mind and learn.

 

[DAPDN]

Cinette, let me just tell you that I am, in no way, a defender of “Estado Novo”, nor am I influenced by my family background or friends, on this particular matter. I am influenced by facts and figures, which pretty much are the basis of my judgement. I see good things and bad things in the Portuguese Authoritarian Regime, and, please, do not underestimate my knowledge of the bad things, too, otherwise, I would, instead, be a supporter of such regime.

The conclusion of my judgement is that I, myself, making a balance of what was good and what was bad in that regime, think that what was good, from my point of view, stands above what was bad. And since perfection is not attendable in what concerns to political science, which means you can’t possibly expect a political system to be perfect without getting a huge frustration, I honestly believe that the Portuguese Authoritarian Regime is, by far, much more preferable than a left-wing communist regime. I restate, though, that I am, in no way, a supporter of the “Estado Novo” as the ideal political system.

And I think that, at least for me, the reasons behind such conclusion are so obvious that I don’t even need to explain them, which would be, anyway, inadequate to explain, considering the thread we are in. I will just give you a hint: at least, in the “Estado Novo”, one could perfectly develop the professional/economical activity they pretty much desire - I mean, there was freedom of establishment and freedom of economic initiative - and one’s property rights were pretty much assured by the 1933 Constitution.

 

[Cuddy_Duck]

On this forum I have read the following startling proclamtions:

• Franco’s regime　had merit
• Salazar’s regime had merit
• Fascism is “left wing”

What I am waiting for now is:

• War is Peace
• Freedom is Slavery
• Ignorance is Strength

But I think might have already.
Some people are really showing their true colours

 

[Cinette]

Cinette, let me just tell you that I am, in no way, a defender of “Estado Novo”, nor am I influenced by my family background or friends, on this particular matter. I am influenced by facts and figures, which pretty much are the basis of my judgement. I see good things and bad things in the Portuguese Authoritarian Regime, and, please, do not underestimate my knowledge of the bad things, too, otherwise, I would, instead, be a supporter of such regime.

The conclusion of my judgement is that I, myself, making a balance of what was good and what was bad in that regime, think that what was good, from my point of view, stands above what was bad. What was good about the Estado Novo?And since perfection is not attendable in what concerns to political science, which means you can’t possibly expect a political system to be perfect without getting a huge frustration, I honestly believe that the Portuguese Authoritarian Regime is, by far, much more preferable than a left-wing communist regimeYou will recall that I did conclude in one of my earlier posts that a Dictatorship of the Right is somewhat better than a Dictatorship of the Left - Communism is terrible. However at the time, because of the suffering under the oppressive Fascist Regime many people thought that communism might be better. Later, my husband and I went to the Soviet Union (1976) and it didn’t take us long to change our minds… I restate, though, that I am, in no way, a supporter of the “Estado Novo” as the ideal political system.Good, I am glad to hear that

And I think that, at least for me, the reasons behind such conclusion are so obvious that I don’t even need to explain them, which would be, anyway, inadequate to explain, considering the thread we are in. I will just give you a hint: at least, in the “Estado Novo”, one could perfectly develop the professional/economical activity they pretty much desire - I mean, there was freedom of establishment and freedom of economic initiative - and one’s property rights were pretty much assured by the 1933 Constitution.

The question here is the fact that the Church supported the Fascist Regime did a lot of damage. It alienated many from the Chuch. I love Portugal and have friends and family there but I notice that they are spiritually barren. I lament that Portugal is not a Catholic country. Many of those who attend Church are cultural Catholics who know very little of their Faith. Generally, most people are secular would you not say? I hope I am wrong:tsktsk: :whacky:

Thank you for your observations That

 

[Cinette]

On this forum I have read the following startling proclamtions:

• Franco’s regime　had merit
• Salazar’s regime had merit
• Fascism is “left wing”

What I am waiting for now is:

• War is Peace
• Freedom is Slavery
• Ignorance is Strength

But I think might have already.
Some people are really showing their true colours

Um pato que tem opiniao?
:extrahappy:

 

[Cuddy_Duck]

Um pato muito especial:thumbsup:

 

[DAPDN]

I’m sorry, but I will not continue to explain what was good about Portugal’s Authoritarian Regime, otherwise, people might start questioning my practice and living of the most essential Christian virtues, as some are already doing, while not being entitled to that. Whoever is interested and may want to explore the theme, go for it, there’s plenty of resources. Search, study, learn, for that sanctifies your life, as S. Josemaria Escrivá would say.

But you’re right, Cinette. One way, or another, the fact is that Portuguese Catholicism is in a real mess. We definitely need to pray and fight so that things get better arround here; meaning, get orthodox and obedient, so that all of the Catholic faithful may experiment a full-hearted conversion!

Pax Christi to all of you!

 

[Cinette]

I’m sorry, but I will not continue to explain what was good about Portugal’s Authoritarian Regime, otherwise, people might start questioning my practice and living of the most essential Christian virtues, as some are already doing, while not being entitled to that. Whoever is interested and may want to explore the theme, go for it, there’s plenty of resources. Search, study, learn, for that sanctifies your life, as S. Josemaria Escrivá would say.

But you’re right, Cinette. One way, or another, the fact is that Portuguese Catholicism is in a real mess. We definitely need to pray and fight so that things get better arround here; meaning, get orthodox and obedient, so that all of the Catholic faithful may experiment a full-hearted conversion!

Pax Christi to all of you!

You have the right attitude. Thank God for measure of Faith he has given you and Praise him for loving you. Praise him for who He is and what he has given to the world.

John 1:10-13 *He was in the world, and the world came into being through him; yet the world did not know him. He came to what was his own and his own people did not accept him…
:bowdown2: :nope: :nope: *

 

[WH1988]

On this forum I have read the following startling proclamtions:

• Franco’s regime　had merit
• Salazar’s regime had merit
• Fascism is “left wing”

I certainly stand by the first two statements. I admire both Salazar and Franco, and their regimes. Am I forbidden to do so? They were certainly not perfect, and were certainly far from that, but had merit, in my opinion.

Once again, I didn’t say that fascist is left-wing (I called it very clearly "an hybrid political phenomenon), but that it’s position on the economic freedom axis is certainly left-wing.

Cinette, all the facts that you mention are true, except from the status of the Portuguese citizens in the overseas provinces: they were certainly not second-class citizens (that was removed on the early 50s), and, on the 60s and 70s, they lived much better than the average Portuguese - people in Angola lived by Central European cilivization standarts. Luanda was called “the African Paris”. My father was one of them, and was shocked to find stone roads that are so typical in Oporto - in Angola he had never seen something like that.

However, you must put things intro prespective. Portugal’s poverty was not due to Salazar’s regime, which was in fact the only golden age of the Portuguese economy since the discoveries. Salazar found a devastated economy, an huge budget deficit, ramping inflation, with massive starvation due to the rise of the food prices, and with an huge civil crisis.

The first republic (1910-1928) was known by it’s radical anti-clericalism, with the religious orders banned, with hundreds of priests killed, persecution of Catholics, and scientific studies aimed at proving that the brain of catholic priests was smaller than average.

The military coup was the only option - it avoided a civil war simillar to Spain’s - and so was a dictatorship, in my opinion. I’m not saying that Salazar shouldn’t have resigned after doing his excellent job, and called for freer elections, but what I’m saying is that the final balance is certainly positive.

Salazar united Portugal behind Catholicism, built the Shrine of Fátima, and gave the church the position she deserves. His regime drastically improved the situation of the Portuguese people. Was that enough to reach the European standarts? Not at all, but from such a unbalanced starting point, I doubt a better job could have been done.

However, as DAPDN keeps saying, this became a political discussion, rather than a religious one. I’m not interested at all in continuing it - it think I made my point.

I do not accept someone to tell me that because I defend an authoritarian regime for Portugal (and I don’t do it by somekind of nostalgia, but mostly for economic and moral reasons) I am some kind of monster. I just don’t believe on democracy as an universal rule - it isn’t perfect and it isn’t a dogma.

 

[Augustine]

This isn’t the thread for it but I’d really like to hear about Fascism’s ‘left-wing economic policies’.

How about nationalization of companies, farms and services, control of labor, confiscation of private property, etc? He pretty much followed the Leninist manual to consolidate his power through socialism.

If one considers that German fascism was put forth by the German National Socialist Workers Party, it’s easy to understand that the antagonism between Fascism and Communism was as that of competing factions, ideologies.

 

[DAPDN]

Precisely what I defended and exposed in my previous posts about the fascist left-wing leaned economic policies.

 

[Kaninchen]

How about nationalization of companies, farms and services, control of labor, confiscation of private property, etc? He pretty much followed the Leninist manual to consolidate his power through socialism.

Margaret Thatcher used to have a wonderful phrase that something was not just nonsense but “nonsense on stilts”. What I wonder about with this piece is why you bothered? I mean you obviously know virtually nothing about the Reich and, probably, even less about Lenin.

If one considers that German fascism was put forth by the German National Socialist Workers Party, it’s easy to understand that the antagonism between Fascism and Communism was as that of competing factions, ideologies.

That is a profoundly silly argument.

 

[Augustine]

What I wonder about with this piece is why you bothered? I mean you obviously know virtually nothing about the Reich and, probably, even less about Lenin.

That is a profoundly silly argument.

Since you can’t provide any constructive argument, but only resort to personal attacks, welcome to my ignore list.

 

[a_cermak]

But to be honest, I think an important point is being made here. When the Church (or any religious institution) cozies up to those in power, they hurt themselves by turning off those who may be on the other side of the political fence. And when the powerful is seen as being part of an authoritarian regime, that hurts doubly (such as in some parts of Central America in the past) because for many religion is supposed to be on the side of the powerless, not the powerful.

 

[Augustine]

But to be honest, I think an important point is being made here. When the Church (or any religious institution) cozies up to those in power, they hurt themselves by turning off those who may be on the other side of the political fence.

The real question is did she and to what extent?

In recent history, communists in Russia, China, Spain and in Portugal, republicans in Italy, Masons in Mexico, Nazis in Germany, Jacobins in France, etc, all martyred the clergy, the religious and the laity because they were Catholics. Evidently, the Church was more sympathetic to those who wouldn’t kill her members, but in none of these cases did she endorse their abuses or turned a blind eye, never ceasing to state the truth at the first possible moment.