Euthanasia, POA, something everyone should read

[rinnie]

A few days ago I was watching ewtn. And Father said a living will is not a good idea.

Did you guys know that a living will was started by the Euthanasia group?

Father said that a Power of Attorney is enough. To find someone you trust to make you decisions for you.

He said that a living will can actually backfire on you and the state can come in an actually make a decision for you.

Like for instance if we do not want extra ordinary means to keep us alive. Food and water are not extra-ordinary means, Food and water are ordinary means to stay alive. But say a feeding tube is needed if someone is in a coma and actually alive. The feeding tube is no longer extra-ordinary means.

He was talking about the little girl who was considered dead because she was in a coma and actually came out of it perfectly ok. Did anyone see this?

 

[Rence]

That’s utter nonsense. If one was deprived of food and water when incapacitated due to their Living Will, then they did not have it drawn up correctly to reflect their wishes.

A Living Will directs your healthcare providers and your family to do as YOU want them to do in the event you are not able to speak for yourself. A Durable Power of Attorney is assigned to carry out your Living Will.

A Power of Attorney only directs your estate and your Will, which involves money and tangible objects like your car, your house, etc… This has nothing to do with your medical interventions in the case of being incapacitated or incompetent. By default, if you don’t have a Living Will and/or Durable Power of Attorney, your spouse or other living relatives can make the decisions for you, with or without considering what YOU want, or sometimes even against the physician.

That means, if something happens to incapacitate you, and your spouse is unable to use sound judgement (which is what happened to my mother when she had her stroke) due to being “too close to the situation” or uneducated, or whatever the case may be. Then you are stuck with that decision.

For example, if you are in a car accident and are in need of a ventilator until your lungs and you are strong enough to breathe on your own, and your freaked out family or spouse is scared of all those tubes and lines, they can have the ventilator pulled even if you’re going to make a 100% recovery. People can be terrified of tubes and lines. It would be in your best interest to assign someone who can be objective and who knows your wishes and be able to honor them.

On the flipside, you may be completely brain dead and are being kept alive by machines alone because half of your brain went out the windshield, and your family or spouse can keep you in a vegetative hopeless state forever, when in fact you’re dead aleady.

They can also refuse to allow organ donors to take what YOU have already decided to give as a gift to someone else who would otherwise die without it.

IMOHO, everyone should have a Durable Power of Attorney and a Living Will that way YOU direct your care, even if you’re not able to verbalize it. And you should not only have an attorney help you, but your priest and your doctor as well. No POA = no choice for YOU.

 

[twopekinguys]

End of life issues are a tricky thing.

People in the medical profession are required to do everything in their power to save a life. Unfortuntely, that can involve some pretty invasive things. Respirators, IV’s, surgeries, etc. etc.

Health care directives have been developed over the years to make sure your wishes are followed. Especially in cases of Healthcare power of attorney’s.

Health care power of attorny’s are more restrictive in their administration. Mine gives the power to an individual in my family to make the decisions, but it also clearly indicates what my wishes are.

Many people don’t believe in all of the surgeries, medications and gizmos that will only delay the inevitable.(I am one of them) Some people believe that enough is enough, and look for a natural death.

Look at the case of Karen Ann Quinlan of New Jersey. She was in a persistant vegatative state for years, and had no chance of recovery. Her parents fought in court to have the respirator removed because it was keeping her alive. Well, lo and behold, they won, but Karen Ann continued to breathe on her own, for several years. She ultimately died of pneumonia, I believe. A natural death. Before her case went to court, she could have/would have been on that respirator alot longer, only to delay the inevitable.

Then you have all of the court cases that finally decided that if a person is “brain dead”, are they actually “dead”, and only being kept alive by the machines. It happens alot with transplant donors.

Not all healthcare decisions surrounding end of life issues are cut and dried. Alot of the decisions also do not revolve around food and water issues either.

I held my mother’s healthcare power of attorney, and had to discontinue her medical treatment. On Christmas Eve no less. While she was still receiving fluids via IV, she was unconcious and did not require food, due to her inability to digest. Basically, what we did was stop all the medications. She passed 2 days later, very quietly and peacefully.

If end of life issues are handled with Love,compassion, and reason, it is hard to make the wrong choice.

---

 

[rinnie]

That’s utter nonsense. If one was deprived of food and water when incapacitated due to their Living Will, then they did not have it drawn up correctly to reflect their wishes.

A Living Will directs your healthcare providers and your family to do as YOU want them to do in the event you are not able to speak for yourself. A Durable Power of Attorney is assigned to carry out your Living Will.

A Power of Attorney only directs your estate and your Will, which involves money and tangible objects like your car, your house, etc… This has nothing to do with your medical interventions in the case of being incapacitated or incompetent. By default, if you don’t have a Living Will and/or Durable Power of Attorney, your spouse or other living relatives can make the decisions for you, with or without considering what YOU want, or sometimes even against the physician.

That means, if something happens to incapacitate you, and your spouse is unable to use sound judgement (which is what happened to my mother when she had her stroke) due to being “too close to the situation” or uneducated, or whatever the case may be. Then you are stuck with that decision.

For example, if you are in a car accident and are in need of a ventilator until your lungs and you are strong enough to breathe on your own, and your freaked out family or spouse is scared of all those tubes and lines, they can have the ventilator pulled even if you’re going to make a 100% recovery. People can be terrified of tubes and lines. It would be in your best interest to assign someone who can be objective and who knows your wishes and be able to honor them.

On the flipside, you may be completely brain dead and are being kept alive by machines alone because half of your brain went out the windshield, and your family or spouse can keep you in a vegetative hopeless state forever, when in fact you’re dead aleady.

They can also refuse to allow organ donors to take what YOU have already decided to give as a gift to someone else who would otherwise die without it.

IMOHO, everyone should have a Durable Power of Attorney and a Living Will that way YOU direct your care, even if you’re not able to verbalize it. And you should not only have an attorney help you, but your priest and your doctor as well. No POA = no choice for YOU.

Then Rence you know more than the Priest on EWTN. I am just telling you what he said. He said POA is enough. That a living will can back fire on your and your loved ones. We can argue here all we want.

 

[Newbie2]

Then Rence you know more than the Priest on EWTN. I am just telling you what he said. He said POA is enough. That a living will can back fire on your and your loved ones. We can argue here all we want.

Let’s not be silly here.

The priest stated his opinion, and Rence simply disagrees.

I happen to agree with Rence; that not having a living will is not a wise thing.

Let’s say you are in a situation where medical decisions need to be made for you. You’ve indicated that your brother has medical power of attorney. You have stated in the past that you’d like to be removed from life support immediately if such a situation should occur. However, when you said that, you were thinking that something bad would happen when you were 70, instead of at 30, which is how old you are know.

If you had the decision to make now, you’d say, let’s keep me alive for a while and see if I will recover, but as far as your brother knows, you want the plug pulled.

Guess what happens.

Think about it. Who is likely to make the best decision for you:

1. A trusted family member or friend who is under a tremendous amount of shock and/or stress, perhaps being pushed in one way or another by other family menbers or friends, or doctors or nurses who may have a much different viewpoint on the value of your life.
2. You yourself making such decisions in advance, in a calm, well thought out, stress-free period of time, being in no hurry and are able to give sufficient reflection to your wishes.

 

[rinnie]

Let’s not be silly here.

The priest stated his opinion, and Rence simply disagrees.

I happen to agree with Rence; that not having a living will is not a wise thing.

Let’s say you are in a situation where medical decisions need to be made for you. You’ve indicated that your brother has medical power of attorney. You have stated in the past that you’d like to be removed from life support immediately if such a situation should occur. However, when you said that, you were thinking that something bad would happen when you were 70, instead of at 30, which is how old you are know.

If you had the decision to make now, you’d say, let’s keep me alive for a while and see if I will recover, but as far as your brother knows, you want the plug pulled.

Guess what happens.

Think about it. Who is likely to make the best decision for you:

1. A trusted family member or friend who is under a tremendous amount of shock and/or stress, perhaps being pushed in one way or another by other family menbers or friends, or doctors or nurses who may have a much different viewpoint on the value of your life.
2. You yourself making such decisions in advance, in a calm, well thought out, stress-free period of time, being in no hurry and are able to give sufficient reflection to your wishes.

And I happen to agree with the Priest:shrug: And I have seen the other side of this and know for a fact what can and has happened. All I am asking people to do is understand what they are doing, and exercise all of your options before doing it. I cannot nor would want to make the final decision. But want them to know what I have learned and to see the other side of the coin is all.

What is the harm in investigation on your own what the pros and cons of a living will are?

 

[Newbie2]

And I happen to agree with the Priest:shrug: And I have seen the other side of this and know for a fact what can and has happened. All I am asking people to do is understand what they are doing, and exercise all of your options before doing it. I cannot nor would want to make the final decision. But want them to know what I have learned and to see the other side of the coin is all.

What is the harm in investigation on your own what the pros and cons of a living will are?

None.

But I’d like to hear some specific examples of the cons.

 

[rinnie]

End of life issues are a tricky thing.

People in the medical profession are required to do everything in their power to save a life. Unfortuntely, that can involve some pretty invasive things. Respirators, IV’s, surgeries, etc. etc.

Health care directives have been developed over the years to make sure your wishes are followed. Especially in cases of Healthcare power of attorney’s.

Health care power of attorny’s are more restrictive in their administration. Mine gives the power to an individual in my family to make the decisions, but it also clearly indicates what my wishes are.

Many people don’t believe in all of the surgeries, medications and gizmos that will only delay the inevitable.(I am one of them) Some people believe that enough is enough, and look for a natural death.

Look at the case of Karen Ann Quinlan of New Jersey. She was in a persistant vegatative state for years, and had no chance of recovery. Her parents fought in court to have the respirator removed because it was keeping her alive. Well, lo and behold, they won, but Karen Ann continued to breathe on her own, for several years. She ultimately died of pneumonia, I believe. A natural death. Before her case went to court, she could have/would have been on that respirator alot longer, only to delay the inevitable.

Then you have all of the court cases that finally decided that if a person is “brain dead”, are they actually “dead”, and only being kept alive by the machines. It happens alot with transplant donors.

Not all healthcare decisions surrounding end of life issues are cut and dried. Alot of the decisions also do not revolve around food and water issues either.

I held my mother’s healthcare power of attorney, and had to discontinue her medical treatment. On Christmas Eve no less. While she was still receiving fluids via IV, she was unconcious and did not require food, due to her inability to digest. Basically, what we did was stop all the medications. She passed 2 days later, very quietly and peacefully.

If end of life issues are handled with Love,compassion, and reason, it is hard to make the wrong choice.

---

Thank-you for you compassionate reply. And may I add how sorry I am for your loss. I agree with what you said also that if you know in advance what you loved onces asked of you it is hard to make the wrong choice. And I believe with the POA you were able to make the right choices.

I have been on both sides of the coin. I have seen where POA was all that was needed by a loving and wonderful family member. Although it is hard to let go, it is easier when you know you did what they asked of you. And they were so lucky to have such a loving a wonderful person to have in this world to trust. God Bless you.

 

[rinnie]

None.

But I’d like to hear some specific examples of the cons.

Okay newbie fine here it is,

My Brother was 39 and had a brain tumor. He was responding well to kemo but had a short term memory loss. His wife of a week stopped his kemo, WE questioned it, he told me he wanted to continue it. She put him in a donnell house they would not feed him or give him water, They pushed medications on him, he fought them as well as he could. I could not stop them. I was told because he had cancer and she had POA and the living will I could not stop it. He died at 39, They give you a book to read, its by the book that you die, Within 2 weeks you are gone. He lived a good while longer because he was very healthy, his heart was strong, lungs etc. THey starved him to death. I could not stop it!

She felt because his memory was not perfect he had no right to live. She got the huge life insurance, which she was after and we got death:shrug: He had a terminal illness so she could do it, He fought till the end, We had no say!

 

[Newbie2]

Sorry to hear about your situation, but where does the con(s) of a living will fit in your story?



It seems that a living will would have prevented a problem. Was there a living will involved?

 

[twopekinguys]

Thank-you for you compassionate reply. And may I add how sorry I am for your loss. I agree with what you said also that if you know in advance what you loved onces asked of you it is hard to make the wrong choice. And I believe with the POA you were able to make the right choices.

I have been on both sides of the coin. I have seen where POA was all that was needed by a loving and wonderful family member. Although it is hard to let go, it is easier when you know you did what they asked of you. And they were so lucky to have such a loving a wonderful person to have in this world to trust. God Bless you.

Thank you for the kindess.

My mother and I had extensive conversations about end of life issues, so when the time came to make the decision, I knew I was doing what she wanted.

More people need to have these conversations, no matter how difficult they are. It is theraputic in many ways. It helps everyone involved face the inevitable.

 

[rinnie]

Thank you for the kindess.

My mother and I had extensive conversations about end of life issues, so when the time came to make the decision, I knew I was doing what she wanted.

More people need to have these conversations, no matter how difficult they are. It is theraputic in many ways. It helps everyone involved face the inevitable.

you are very welcome. By the bad experience we had with my brother we learned alot also. My Sister knew my Dads wishes and him like your Mom sat us down and told us what was and what was not acceptable. We are at peace with his death, which I am sure you are.

They wanted to put him on a ventilator for a day after his bypass to give him a chance to respond. So we did, but he made my sister promise no long term. Etc. sometimes things like even a feeding tube are needed short term. Etc. Every situation is different. And everything must be weighed very very carefull.

 

[rinnie]

Sorry to hear about your situation, but where does the con(s) of a living will fit in your story?



It seems that a living will would have prevented a problem. Was there a living will involved?

Easy many things that are listed on that.

Ventilator, sometimes it can be a necessary for a short tern reason.

They would not give him food, he could have ate, but they said that because he signed the no feeding tube that he did not want any food, They would not let us feed him. Trust me you have no idea what can be done, until it happens to you. I can go on forever. But don’t have time now. But will get into deeper later if need be.