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fix
Guest
If that is the standard then if slavery comes back it would be fine.
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mapleoak
Guest
So you state that morality based on majority rule, a form of moral relativism, is what your standard is?
In what way?
Hopefully, you wouldn’t say that burying a dead person is the same as burying a live person, would you? There is no way around it, performing an action which directly results in the death of an innocent human being is murder. For example, burning an unborn baby with salt water until it dies is murder. Injecting a patient with carbolic acid is murder. Withholding means of nutrition such that a patient starves to death is murder.
Why read the opposite into what is written. Switch it around and see if it makes sense.
Why not? Because of majority rule? Is it somehow morally wrong to use tax payers money to kill tax payers?
Truth doesn’t conform to popular opinion. Something that is true is true, whether one person or ten people or a billion people choose to believe it.
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jmcrae
Guest
Which is why you should leave them alone, and let them battle it out, until they themselves are ready to let go and stop breathing. Believe me, it will happen soon enough. There is no need to rush the process.
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Squishy
Guest
Our laws and regulations ARE changing all the time to suit the moral climate in society.
Because helping someone to kill them selves is easier to justify to your consiouse than being the one who pulls the trigger as it where. At leaste the way i see it.
Appolagies. I think i misunderstood you here, in a legal sense performing an action that directly causes the death of a human, can be called murder. But often is not. What about turning off a life support machine. Do you feel as strongly about that as abortion?
Sorry i just misunderstood you
No, nothing like this. I dont think you as a healthy person (im assuming) should take up a hospital bed for no reason.
Truth is Truth. We are in agreement here.
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Squishy
Guest
Ok this will be my last reply in this thread probebly untill monday.
The issue is as i see it. That people can be in so much pain and agony that they would want their body to just give up. But as we have little control over our bodys (try to stop your self breathing by will power) they are unable to escape the pain and anguish.
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mapleoak
Guest
It was considered fine by whom? You? The slaves? The slave owners?
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jmcrae
Guest
They will, when they are ready to. You have to give them the time they need, to be ready to do it.
Trust me on this; I have cared for family members who were dying. There is no need to rush the process, at all. Yes, it was agonizing, but looking back, the time of pain was really so short. And when they were ready to go, they just went - it was exactly like a candle going out - just, whoo, they were gone, and that was that.
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mapleoak
Guest
And since morality is not relative (a truth) society needs to conform its laws with morality. Not the other way around. Actually the other way around is impossible since morality does not conform to society. Would you say it is possible for society to have laws which are corrupt?
This is the same as anything goes as long as I feel okay with it.
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Publisher
Guest
When my mom was dying of cancer my siblings and I took care of her at home for the duration. Toward the end of the ordeal, the hospice nurse took my brother and me aside and told us…“If you give her too much morphine it will kill her, I just want you to know as she is suffering greatly and giving her too much at this time is easy to do. I want you to also know that if she dies in the next week or so there will be no autopsy performed as her last doctor’s examination was three months ago, if she lasts more than two weeks, the doctor will ask for an autopsy…your mother is suffering a great deal.”
Mom died a couple days later with her family around her holding her hands and commending her into the Light.
Mom died a couple days later with her family around her holding her hands and commending her into the Light.
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jmcrae
Guest
It sounds as if the nurse was instructing you to poison your mother.
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Cracker_Mom
Guest
I’ve heard stories like this, too where we live.Hospice can be a very good thing but you have to be careful. Some of the nurses involved are supportive of assisted suicide/euthanasia.It’s almost like a death-cult religion for some.Pretty creepy.
We had better experiences in the hospital even though that has its limitations.
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fix
Guest
Did the slaves have a say in it?
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Publisher
Guest
The nurse was offering us alternatives to prolonged and un-due suffering. There was no…“instruction” for any thing other than she gave us insight to alternatives, should we chose to exercise them…my mom died in much pain…she finally was not able to labor for her next breath…as she slipped away I was holding her hand telling her “You’re almost there…you’re doing good…keep going…”
Dying in a hospital was out of the question…she wanted to die at home with those she loved and in familiar surroundings not surrounded by strangers or alone in a sterile room.
We have divorced ourselves from death and made it “clean” in hospitals…hospice seeks to bring the reality of death back into our lives…to see death as a part of life…a culmination of one’s life…the fulfillment of it…not the end of it.
I volunteered at hospice for several years as “payment” for their care of my mom…it was a holy experience to sit with people as they drew their last breath.
Dying in a hospital was out of the question…she wanted to die at home with those she loved and in familiar surroundings not surrounded by strangers or alone in a sterile room.
We have divorced ourselves from death and made it “clean” in hospitals…hospice seeks to bring the reality of death back into our lives…to see death as a part of life…a culmination of one’s life…the fulfillment of it…not the end of it.
I volunteered at hospice for several years as “payment” for their care of my mom…it was a holy experience to sit with people as they drew their last breath.
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Cracker_Mom
Guest
My sympathy, but I’m sorry to read the direct killing of a patient described as an “alternative” on a Catholic site. I was kind of hoping you were relating your experience as a caution to others.
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Publisher
Guest
I was…but as was said in previous posts…giving too much morphine will cause respiratory failure and hasten death…and it was “ok” to give morphine in such large doses as to cause respiratory arrest as long as the “reason” was to aleviate pain…I don’t really see the difference…the end result is the same…if the reason was to alleviate pain but it caused death that was ok…but if the reason was “both” then it’s not “ok”…anyone administering such narcotics SHOULD be aware large doses can cause death and if they don’t, shouldn’t be administering it…sounds to me it’s a “word game” to assauge our consciences…even though the results are the same…I can’t “pretend”. To give morphine in sufficient doses to alleviate pain at end stage cancer WILL CAUSE DEATH and any caregiver who adminsters such drugs knows this…I fail to see the difference…it is no surprise death occurs under such circumstances.
Caution should be taken…be very cautious and be very clear as to the “Whys”…make sure one can live with the decisions one makes…“procede with caution”…but don’t 'play games with words" to assauge one’s conscience.
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JimG
Guest
The National Catholic Bioethics Center has a discussion as well as publications concerning end of life issues. There is a brief discussion of euthanasia here. It is always wrong to directly intend to kill a patient, but it is not wrong to give sufficient dosage of pain medication to control suffering, even if time of death is thereby advanced.
“Although it is certainly preferable to die in a conscious state of prayer, no one should feel obliged to forgo medications and pain relief even though they may bring about disorientation or produce unconsciousness. The Church does not oblige the Catholic to forgo medical treatment for pain even when such treatment may deprive the patient of full consciousness or indirectly shorten life. This is an application of the principle of double-effect (see glossary). The Church asks only that appropriate conditions exist before such medication be taken.”
Source: ncbcenter.org/eol.asp
“Although it is certainly preferable to die in a conscious state of prayer, no one should feel obliged to forgo medications and pain relief even though they may bring about disorientation or produce unconsciousness. The Church does not oblige the Catholic to forgo medical treatment for pain even when such treatment may deprive the patient of full consciousness or indirectly shorten life. This is an application of the principle of double-effect (see glossary). The Church asks only that appropriate conditions exist before such medication be taken.”
Source: ncbcenter.org/eol.asp
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magdelaine
Guest
Jim, you kind of answered my original question!
Although the kind of medical care that provides pain relief may not exist in the extreme situations I was postulating, it is possible that the suffering of radiation victims, for example, may be alleviated. I guess I was wondering if PDE would ever apply. I see that in reference to pain relief, it may.
But to sum up, it is never OK to do anything, including give medication, with the purpose of *causing *death.
Thank you!
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