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JCnMe
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Caroline17-I’m so sorry for loss of your dear cat:hug1:
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Caroline17
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JCnMe,
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Before I even posted my comments yesterday, I noticed how right on you are. You have a lot of good things to say, and are respectful and kind with your responses.
Caroline
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Before I even posted my comments yesterday, I noticed how right on you are. You have a lot of good things to say, and are respectful and kind with your responses.
Caroline
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Gorgias
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Caroline,
I had to have my dog euthanized about 10 years ago. It was a horrible, horrible time for me. My sympathies on the loss of a beloved pet.
Sometimes, we identify with our pets so completely, that they become “little people” in our eyes. They’re not… no matter how much we love them.
I had to have my dog euthanized about 10 years ago. It was a horrible, horrible time for me. My sympathies on the loss of a beloved pet.
Wait – where did I ever talk about animals and pain? Of course they feel pain!
I’m really at a loss here. I never addressed the question of whether animals suffer. Nevertheless, ‘suffering’ doesn’t equate to ‘presence of an immortal soul’, which is the only question I was addressing.
This, on the other hand, is the question I was addressing. We, as humans, “go to be with Jesus.” Animals, though?
Sometimes, we identify with our pets so completely, that they become “little people” in our eyes. They’re not… no matter how much we love them.
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JCnMe
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To those who know- no proof is necessary
To those who don’t-no proof is enough … you need stop this now- if you really were in pain over the loss of your dog- you’d have a little empathy and compassion and know better than to try to debate with Caroline17 when she just lost her own pet- … just go pray about it and perhaps if you can quiet your own voice cheering you on long enough- God will share His thoughts with you on this…
To those who don’t-no proof is enough … you need stop this now- if you really were in pain over the loss of your dog- you’d have a little empathy and compassion and know better than to try to debate with Caroline17 when she just lost her own pet- … just go pray about it and perhaps if you can quiet your own voice cheering you on long enough- God will share His thoughts with you on this…
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Gorgias
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JCnMe,
There is some wisdom to what you’re saying – folks who are saddened by the loss of a pet are thinking I’m saying things that I’ve never said.
Of course, when someone is in pain, we offer words of compassion. Lies, on the other hand, however well-intentioned they might be, are not compassionate.
JCnMe:
There is some wisdom to what you’re saying – folks who are saddened by the loss of a pet are thinking I’m saying things that I’ve never said.
Of course, when someone is in pain, we offer words of compassion. Lies, on the other hand, however well-intentioned they might be, are not compassionate.
How do you know that He hasn’t already…?
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JCnMe
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Trust me- it’s obvious you don’t carry the love of God in your heart…so no-He hasn’t … I doubt if you would believe Him anyway
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Gorgias
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Matthew 5:11-12.
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Caroline17
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Thank you Georgias.
It is so hard to lose a pet, or see them suffer, they’re just so innocent. In that way I do look at animals, children, and adults without the ability to understand, or help themselves at the time in the same way.
Georgias, when I quoted you, I was half asleep, and very distraught. I have to admit it was kind of disjointed. It wasn’t that specific comment of yours I meant to quote, I was more addressing the way I perceived you speaking to people. I don’t know if you realize that you come off to people as not very humble, as if it’s your job to put them in their place. (and Protestant, you wouldn’t be tricking us about being Catholic would you, in here trying to save us all!! Just teasing, even if you are I’m glad you care about our salvation.) JCnMe is absolutely correct; it is not required that Catholics take each and every verse of the Bible literally.
We look at the big picture as Catholics right? Knowing Jesus, gets us to Heaven, imitating His life. Not taking the Old Testament or even the New, word for word and proving points using specific verses. Then we better go back to the dietary laws, and all the other written rules found there. As far as the Catechism, it has changed official teachings of the Church many times that represent the times in which they were written, and what was appropriate during the writing. There are certain things that are just plain immoral, and evil, but no one is going to Hell because they believe animals go to heaven. (I know you didn’t say we would.) This is an area we are allowed to discern with prayer and our own conscience. I think there will eventually come a day when the official teaching of the Church will reflect that animals go to Heaven as we humans become more enlightened over time as we do After all we love our pets, we can love anyone or anything, all of God’s creation. That Love is the only thing that exists when we die, it’s the only thing we can take with us when we go. No one can tell me a boy and his dog don’t each love each other equally, innocently, unconditionally as God loves us. If the dog can experience emotion, love, intelligence (&logic) on the same level as an 7-8 yr old boy,such as a border collie(which science tells us), and love is the only thing that’s real and true, why can’t that dog take it with him too? It’s energy, it exists, and cannot be destroyed, or disappear. (Pope Francis, hooray! I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it came from him.)
All that stuff about pain was just what I was saying in response to people letting their animals suffer too long with illness. Waiting for a miracle, because we do believe God intervenes, we’ve seen it before, but we really need to listen, because sometimes he says NO. Like I said, I think that can be a miracle in itself, because how much better is it to be in Heaven, and no longer sick. When my first cat died I waited too long,she died at home, but suffered too much. I just wasn’t going to do that again, now that I understand better what they’re going through. My little Simba seemed healthy as a horse, then one day out of the blue started throwing up, and having gastrointestinal issues, turned out he had intestinal cancer, no big lump or anything, a few little abnormal cells. I wanted to do everything I could to help him, then I started to recognize the signs of what was coming, the weakness difficult breathing, not to go into all the details. He was clearly in terrible pain to the vet, nurses, me, I had to euthanize him. I couldn’t just let him lay there and suffer at home.
and that is what I believe this thread is about. The original woman’s question of whether or not it’s ok morally to euthanize a sick pet, and how do you know when?
It is so hard to lose a pet, or see them suffer, they’re just so innocent. In that way I do look at animals, children, and adults without the ability to understand, or help themselves at the time in the same way.
Georgias, when I quoted you, I was half asleep, and very distraught. I have to admit it was kind of disjointed. It wasn’t that specific comment of yours I meant to quote, I was more addressing the way I perceived you speaking to people. I don’t know if you realize that you come off to people as not very humble, as if it’s your job to put them in their place. (and Protestant, you wouldn’t be tricking us about being Catholic would you, in here trying to save us all!! Just teasing, even if you are I’m glad you care about our salvation.) JCnMe is absolutely correct; it is not required that Catholics take each and every verse of the Bible literally.
We look at the big picture as Catholics right? Knowing Jesus, gets us to Heaven, imitating His life. Not taking the Old Testament or even the New, word for word and proving points using specific verses. Then we better go back to the dietary laws, and all the other written rules found there. As far as the Catechism, it has changed official teachings of the Church many times that represent the times in which they were written, and what was appropriate during the writing. There are certain things that are just plain immoral, and evil, but no one is going to Hell because they believe animals go to heaven. (I know you didn’t say we would.) This is an area we are allowed to discern with prayer and our own conscience. I think there will eventually come a day when the official teaching of the Church will reflect that animals go to Heaven as we humans become more enlightened over time as we do After all we love our pets, we can love anyone or anything, all of God’s creation. That Love is the only thing that exists when we die, it’s the only thing we can take with us when we go. No one can tell me a boy and his dog don’t each love each other equally, innocently, unconditionally as God loves us. If the dog can experience emotion, love, intelligence (&logic) on the same level as an 7-8 yr old boy,such as a border collie(which science tells us), and love is the only thing that’s real and true, why can’t that dog take it with him too? It’s energy, it exists, and cannot be destroyed, or disappear. (Pope Francis, hooray! I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it came from him.)
All that stuff about pain was just what I was saying in response to people letting their animals suffer too long with illness. Waiting for a miracle, because we do believe God intervenes, we’ve seen it before, but we really need to listen, because sometimes he says NO. Like I said, I think that can be a miracle in itself, because how much better is it to be in Heaven, and no longer sick. When my first cat died I waited too long,she died at home, but suffered too much. I just wasn’t going to do that again, now that I understand better what they’re going through. My little Simba seemed healthy as a horse, then one day out of the blue started throwing up, and having gastrointestinal issues, turned out he had intestinal cancer, no big lump or anything, a few little abnormal cells. I wanted to do everything I could to help him, then I started to recognize the signs of what was coming, the weakness difficult breathing, not to go into all the details. He was clearly in terrible pain to the vet, nurses, me, I had to euthanize him. I couldn’t just let him lay there and suffer at home.
and that is what I believe this thread is about. The original woman’s question of whether or not it’s ok morally to euthanize a sick pet, and how do you know when?
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Caroline17
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Oh gosh, tired again. I just meant I very much support Pope Francis, and I wouldn’t be surprised it he announced animals indeed go to Heaven.
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JCnMe
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Thank you again Gorgias- I’ll take your posting those particular verses as an apology for your insensitive and aggressive behavior…you’re forgiven
I’m thinking the same thing Caroline17… it’s a common tactic of some protestant denominations to go in and antagonize on forums-only to get an argument started-they will also lie-because they are taught it’s ok to use the devils own tactics against those they consider non-christian and therefore “unsaved”-those same denominations condemn the Church as such… then they proclaim they are persecuted for their righteousness in the Lord- and quote the chapter and verse Gorgias just did as if it applies to them …
I’m thinking the same thing Caroline17… it’s a common tactic of some protestant denominations to go in and antagonize on forums-only to get an argument started-they will also lie-because they are taught it’s ok to use the devils own tactics against those they consider non-christian and therefore “unsaved”-those same denominations condemn the Church as such… then they proclaim they are persecuted for their righteousness in the Lord- and quote the chapter and verse Gorgias just did as if it applies to them …
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AbideWithMe
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Caroline—
I’m sorry about the loss of your cat. I’ve had to euthanize 2 dogs and 2 horses over the years. FWIW, I think it’s reasonable to hope they are in God’s hands and that His care is generous and vast enough to include them in heaven.
But, my goodness, what on earth is up with pointlessly taking a swipe at Protestants here, even as some kind of asinine kidding? I’ve seen Catholics do this many times before on threads that have nothing to do with Protestants, and it’s incredibly unattractive, prideful Catholic chest-thumping. Yuck.
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AbideWithMe
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Wow. I was writing while you posted this. I’m speechless. Proof please as to the bolded, or, to avoid derailing this thread, start a new thread with ample evidence of this if you’re going to make such an accusation.Thank you again Gorgias- I’ll take your posting those particular verses as an apology for your insensitive and aggressive behavior…you’re forgiven
I’m thinking the same thing Caroline17… it’s a common tactic of some protestant denominations to go in and antagonize on forums-only to get an argument started-they will also lie-because they are taught it’s okay to use the devil’s own tacticsagainst those they consider non-christian and therefore “unsaved”-those same denominations condemn the Church as such… then they proclaim they are persecuted for their righteousness in the Lord- and quote the chapter and verse Gorgias just did as if it applies to them …
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JCnMe
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Personal experience… even so much as they(neighbor who was a minister) lied to my babysitter to take my son to their Bible camp-you could visibly see them wince when I told them I was Catholic-so they decided to “save” my son and lying was acceptable- offering kids new bikes to go with them to Bible camp is another tactic they use… I was being kind by NOT naming the denomination… while I wondered if it was just a flaw in that particular minister- the many discussions online in various religious forums over the years have shown me it’s common practice for the reason I stated… it is what it is
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AbideWithMe
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JCnMe–I don’t want to derail the thread, but no, it is not “common practice”. I’m sorry you had that bad experience with your neighbor. Please consider starting a new thread, naming the denomination, and providing proof of where else you’ve seen lying encouraged. I’m serious. Your accusations are no small matter.
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JCnMe
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I have many Protestant friends…so I don’t even consider this denomination the norm…but there are radical legalist denominations that denounce Catholicism …and carry an agenda with their own ideas of what is acceptable or not… what I shared was an awareness that perhaps all is not as it appears… and now personal experience-detailed a few things to understand and watch for-I am content at this point in time to try to help where I can and let God handle the details…not argue or debate…
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severus68
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Lies? Believe what you want but others can believe what they want to. There is no doctrine on this. Yes, we are made in the image of God but how does that prove animals do not go to heaven. God decides.JCnMe,
There is some wisdom to what you’re saying – folks who are saddened by the loss of a pet are thinking I’m saying things that I’ve never said.
Of course, when someone is in pain, we offer words of compassion. Lies, on the other hand, however well-intentioned they might be, are not compassionate.
How do you know that He hasn’t already…?
Further, why is it so important for you to keep on insisting you are right? Whether you are right or wrong, believing/hoping/praying their pets will be in heaven gives many people a lot of comfort.
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Gorgias
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No problems. I’ve been there – that weekend my dog passed was one of the worst I’ve ever had.
Fair enough. Here’s my perspective, then: it pains me to see people misrepresent Church teaching, such that they make the claim that animals necessarily inherit eternal life. After all, any time we make a positive claim about Church doctrine, it’s kind of necessary to be able to demonstrate where we’re making the claim. Here, though, people are only saying, “well, the Church doesn’t say that it isn’t the case!” Yeah, that’s true – but then again, the Church doesn’t say that eating cheesecake won’t save your immortal soul, either… but that doesn’t mean that “the NY cheesecake salvation diet” is taught by the Church.
It really is the job of all of us to accurately reflect Church teachings. The Church clearly teaches that God’s creation of humanity was distinct from His creation of all else: we are made in His image and likeness… and we have immortal souls. Therefore, we inherit eternal life. Animals, conversely, do not. Would it be comforting to think that they do? Of course it would. But, we’re kidding ourselves if we attempt to rationalize that thought. (To my interlocutors here: you’ve done a great job dancing around the theology to support your claims, but you’ve made a particular claim about the salvation of animals. Please demonstrate, from the teachings of the Church, that the Church tells us that animals go to heaven. Do that, and I will apologize profusely. (No, JCnMe, I haven’t apologized to you yet… but do this, and I will, with cherries on top.
)Let’s look at it another way: heaven is something to which we aspire. But, in God’s plan, those who can attain to heaven can also “miss the mark” and end up in hell. If ya’ll are claiming that our pets go to heaven, then necessarily, you’re claiming that some might go to hell, aren’t you? If so… what’s the determining factor? What is it that sends some pets to heaven and others to hell? I can point to a plethora of Church documents about salvation that discuss exactly that consideration… from the perspective of people.
True. Yet, I’m quoting the catechism as my source, not the Bible. We do have to take every line in the catechism literally, don’t you agree?
Thank you.
And yet, if our conscience fails us, and comes up with the wrong answer, we are obliged to more properly inform it.
Based on what, do you think this? Is there any substance to your thought, or is it – in some way – an emotional response to the notion of the permanence of love?
Because the boy has an eternal soul, and the dog does not.
Look, don’t get me wrong – I think it’s possible that God might recreate our pets in heaven, stem to stern. But, it doesn’t follow from what Jesus taught us, and it’s certainly not the teaching of the Church! (If Jesus had said, “suffer the little puppies to come to me,” I might see your point. He didn’t, though.)
Yes, you’re right – the OP wasn’t talking about pets as inheriting heaven. I only got involved in this thread when marylauravicuna suggested that pets have souls. You know my opinion on that.
Here’s what bothers me most: God made humans in a special way in order to share in His divine life. By claiming that animals (or plants, or the environment, or Gaia) shares in this divine gift, it seems to me that folks are devaluing this precious gift of God to us. Do we love our animals? Absolutely! Do we have the obligation to be good stewards of them and of the environment! Without a doubt! Does the fact that they are living, mean that they, too, have eternal souls? No. This type of creeping panentheism clouds our vision and devalues our opinion of people vis-a-vis animals. We’ve seen it expressed here literally, when JCnMe said “there are alot more dogs/pets that deserve to go than some humans.” That sort of perspective is what gets my dander up, and what gets me preaching the Gospel in a way a bit more strident than I might usually do!
Could I be more charitable to JCnMe in this thread? Absolutely! Could s/he do likewise? Yep. Do we disagree on this matter? Doubtlessly. But… who’s quoting Church teaching, and who’s simply waved their hands a bit and asserted (without any backing) something that the Church doesn’t teach…? Yep… you know the answer to that one, too… :sad_yes:
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severus68
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No problems. I’ve been there – that weekend my dog passed was one of the worst I’ve ever had.
Fair enough. Here’s my perspective, then: it pains me to see people misrepresent Church teaching, such that they make the claim that animals necessarily inherit eternal life. After all, any time we make a positive claim about Church doctrine, it’s kind of necessary to be able to demonstrate where we’re making the claim. Here, though, people are only saying, “well, the Church doesn’t say that it isn’t the case!” Yeah, that’s true – but then again, the Church doesn’t say that eating cheesecake won’t save your immortal soul, either… but that doesn’t mean that “the NY cheesecake salvation diet” is taught by the Church.
Neither JCMe nor anyone else insists you follow what they believe. The Church has left this open. In no way have you proved you are right. So yours is still an opinion/belief/view.
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Gorgias
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Outstanding insight! Creation exists by and for the glory of God! Yes, indeed! And, indeed, in the eschaton, there will be a new heavens and a new earth! Now… does this mean that this tree in my backyard will be in heaven? Or that that tomato plant that I grew last year will with me in heaven? After all, I really loved growing it and tending to it! (On the other hand, might there be trees and tomato plants in heaven? Perhaps.) But are we saying that this one or that one will be there? No…
This is the claim that ya’ll have made in this thread. I, too, have asked you to demonstrate your claim with anything that approximates a proof; yet, the only proof given is that “the Church has left it open.” That’s a distortion of the truth. As I mentioned: the Church doesn’t mention cheesecake in the catechism, and whether it has the ability to save us from hell. That does not mean that “the Church has left the question of the salvific power of cheesecake open.”
Instead, it means that the Church has defined the notion of heaven, and has not made the claim that cheesecake is involved. It does not follow that the question is ‘open’. It’s a nice claim to make… but it doesn’t hold up to logic.No… mine is an argument, based on what the Church says about attainment to heaven, and about what enables us to do so. One expression of that belief – one that was mentioned here – was whether animals have eternal souls. My ‘view’ – which I’ve backed up with the teachings of the Church in the catechism – is that they do not.
Actually, no: Jesus says that the Father knows everything, even the death of a sparrow. In the passage you’re referencing, Jesus says: “Are not two sparrows sold for a small coin? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father’s knowledge… So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.” That doesn’t sound like Jesus is saying that we and the sparrows are equal in the status of possessing eternal souls; we are, after all, ‘worth more than many sparrows’.
Or, perhaps you’re referencing this citation: “Look at the birds in the sky; they do not sow or reap, they gather nothing into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are not you more important than they?” Even in this case, what is the extent of God’s care for the birds? Does Jesus say that God raises them to eternal life? No… he takes care of their earthly needs – He feeds them. And even so, we’re reminded that we ‘are more important than they.’
Thank you for helping to illustrate my point.
That’s not the basis of it at all! Our intellect, per se, doesn’t come into the picture! It’s not that we’re smarter that makes the difference! It’s not even that God “cannot love” them! It’s the simple reason that only humans are made “in the image and likeness” of God; it’s purely that only humans have eternal souls. It’s not a matter of feeling superior; it’s a matter of believing what the Bible and the Catechism tell us – that is, what they do not “leave open”…
Thank you… but that’s immaterial: the truth is the truth, no matter who believes in it; what is untrue is untrue, no matter whether one asks or forces others to believe it. The Church teaches the truth… and it does not teach that animals have eternal souls and go to heaven.
I have stated what the Church teaches; ya’ll have made it clear that you do not agree with the logical implications of that teaching. It appears we won’t make any further progress on that point. However, if anyone has any examples of Church teaching that back up your assertions of this “open point”, I’d love to read them.
Peace,
G.
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