Evangelical Bible Study

[bookgirl]

I’ve just recently started a Bible study that I was invited to by a friend in an Evangelical church. I did not feel any reservations about joining other than the fact that I often like to be right in arguments, so I sometimes try to stay away from verbal apologetics b/c I can almost become prideful. But since this wasn’t really going to be about apologetics, I thought, “Okay, this would be fine, I’d learn a little more about where they were coming from which might help me have better conversations in the future. Besides, I could still get some spiritual growth out of studying the Bible, even if I didn’t necessarily agree with their interpretations.” It is VERY interesting, b/c with the first meeting I had about three or four questions that I wrote down to take back to my spiritual advisor. I used to think, “How could Evangelicals get what they get from the Bible?” And I know that often things are taken out of context, but I don’t think I truly understood just how far out of context until this first meeting. I’d like to write in here every once and a while though and run this past other readers to see if I’m following the right line of logic.

So this whole study is based on Galations 5: 22-23 and it’s called “Fruits of the Spirit”, it’s by a woman named Beth Moore. The goal is great, how to gain more of what this passage of Galations calls the fruit of the spirit. But the first passage she quotes is actually from Phil 3: 12-14. Here Paul is saying that he has not yet obtained “perfect maturity” and is talking in the previous passage about attaining the “resurretion from the dead.” In looking at this in my Catholic study Bible, I see that there is quite a context built up even so far as to where Paul was geographically and what he was trying to teach specifically to the Phillippians. Just from reading it from my Catholic point of view this passage seems to be talking about “perfect maturity” as in the state our souls will be in in Heaven, or at least the state of sanctifying grace they must be in to get to Heaven. Am I wrong here?

The woman writing this study takes this passage and makes it about “fulfilling God’s calling for us”, meaning our earthly calling, not everyone’s calling of getting to Heaven, but our own specific callings for our life on Earth. I can see where the need to think this about this passage would arise, since she believes in OSAS after being born again. It has to mean something and if it doesn’t point to our universal calling of Heaven and being with God for eternity, since she thinks they’ve already promised that, it must mean our “perfect maturity” here on Earth. Do you think I’m coming to the right conclusions here? Or am I not aware of the correct interpretation (the Church’s interpretation) of this particular scripture?

 

[runandsew]

This sounds kind of deep, and without looking into it right at this time, I would like to say by your comments that it sounds like the bible study is trying to paste together two different passages which were taken out of context to make a point.

This pasting of different passages together which aren’t talking about the same thing and taking them out of context in a kin to a kidnapper’s note, where he pastes together the letters he has cut out from different newspapers and magazines to make a note which will say what he wants.

All the letters are taken out of context from the article they were written in, and used to make the kidnappers message.

It seems to me that your choices are to either keep silent about taking the passage out of context and just nod, or bring it up in your bible study, and explain how you need to read three or four passages before and after a scripture verse to find the context, and that one should try to avoid putting together unrelated passages to make a point, even if they kind of sound like they could relate to each other.

I hope this helps.

 

[Steve_M]

This sounds kind of deep, and without looking into it right at this time, I would like to say by your comments that* it sounds like the bible study is trying to paste together two different passages which were taken out of context to make a point.*

As someone who grew up Southern Baptist, I can tell you that you’ll see this a lot. They’ll pull passages together that are completely unreleated. They also don’t put the letters of the New Testament in the correct context. For example, the letters written to the various churches are written to groups of baptized Christian, so you don’t see explicit instructions that you need to get baptized (I know it’s taught all through the New Testament, but when Paul talks about having faith, he doesn’t mention bapism), becaue it’s understood that the reciepents are already baptized. I’m just mentioning that so you’ll know what to look out for, but I suspect you already know.

Beth Moore used to go to the same Church I did when I was a Baptist. I heard her speak a few times and didn’t really care for her.

 

[tz620q]

No, you are not wrong. Paul starts out Phillipians in Chapter 1 verses 21-24 with the following:
“For to me life is Christ, and death is gain.
If I go on living in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. And I do not know which I shall choose.
I am caught between the two. I long to depart this life and be with Christ, (for) that is far better.
Yet that I remain (in) the flesh is more necessary for your benefit.”

It is evident that Paul longs to see things clearly and obtain the end of his race; but he feels called to be an Apostle as long as God leaves him on earth.
I have heard several people talk about Beth Moore. The non-Catholics seem to have no problem with her Purpose Driven Life message, because they come from a tradition of bringing the Bible into their daily lives like a friend that they can converse with. Unfortunately, we often expect our friends to tell us exactly what we want to hear, so it should not be surprising that there are speakers out there that use evidence like a lawyer, selectively and leadingly. This allows them to bring the Bible to their viewpoint and not bring the people to the Bible’s viewpoint.

 

[bookgirl]

Beth Moore used to go to the same Church I did when I was a Baptist. I heard her speak a few times and didn’t really care for her.

Interesting! She’s a little too much of a performer for me, but she can be funny I guess. I was confused that she didn’t seem to have more background in actual theological study. She kept saying that the “Lord spoke a word over her.” Okay, what does that mean? He actually spoke to her? It’s not like it’s not possible, He’s spoken to plenty of saints, but she used the phrase like He did it all the time or something, and that’s how she got a lot of her knowledge?

It will be interesting.

 

[bookgirl]

No, you are not wrong. Paul starts out Phillipians in Chapter 1 verses 21-24 with the following:
“For to me life is Christ, and death is gain.
If I go on living in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. And I do not know which I shall choose.
I am caught between the two. I long to depart this life and be with Christ, (for) that is far better.
Yet that I remain (in) the flesh is more necessary for your benefit.”

It is evident that Paul longs to see things clearly and obtain the end of his race; but he feels called to be an Apostle as long as God leaves him on earth.
I have heard several people talk about Beth Moore. The non-Catholics seem to have no problem with her Purpose Driven Life message, because they come from a tradition of bringing the Bible into their daily lives like a friend that they can converse with. Unfortunately, we often expect our friends to tell us exactly what we want to hear, so it should not be surprising that there are speakers out there that use evidence like a lawyer, selectively and leadingly. This allows them to bring the Bible to their viewpoint and not bring the people to the Bible’s viewpoint.

Good, I’m glad I was on the right track with that. I love apologetics and reading this board and learning about it, but I’m far from a Bible scholar. It’s pretty interesting that, in Evangelicalism, anyone is supposed to be able to read the Bible themselves and get the whole correct message. But how likely is it that anyone is actually sitting there and reading the entire Bible before they decide what it says? Far more likely that they’re listening to a certain person or church’s take on things, reading the passages they’ve been told to read, and going from there. I mean, in this particular example, it’s kind of obvious if you just read the paragraph RIGHT BEFORE IT. How can you ignore it?

 

[Zenas]

Bookgirl, you are exactly right in your conclusions. These Beth Moore study groups are not real Bible studies. They are good for fellowship, inspiration and encouragement (feel good sessions) but they don’t go very deep because Beth Moore is not very deep. She is an accomplished speaker,intelligent and funny, and her conferences are always sold out far in advance. But don’t expect to come away with some profound insight into scripture. You might compare her with Billy Graham; he could draw tens of thousands to a single meeting but no one ever accused him of being a scholar.

 

[bookgirl]

Bookgirl, you are exactly right in your conclusions. These Beth Moore study groups are not real Bible studies. They are good for fellowship, inspiration and encouragement (feel good sessions) but they don’t go very deep because Beth Moore is not very deep. She is an accomplished speaker,intelligent and funny, and her conferences are always sold out far in advance. But don’t expect to come away with some profound insight into scripture. You might compare her with Billy Graham; he could draw tens of thousands to a single meeting but no one ever accused him of being a scholar.

This is pretty much what I thought, which is why I had no problem attending. It still might be a little hard, though, to get some inspiration when I know the basis for the whole thing is partly faulty. But I committed so I’ll try.

 

[bookgirl]

Just an FYI as I stay up late to do this study while my three month old is finally sleeping: I’m going to sound rude saying this, and I don’t want to, but this is seriously my reaction: DUH! Especially after reading the online commentary I was just directed to. There’s a lot more in these passages than this!

 

[jfallaw]

Interesting! She’s a little too much of a performer for me, but she can be funny I guess. I was confused that she didn’t seem to have more background in actual theological study. She kept saying that the “Lord spoke a word over her.” Okay, what does that mean? He actually spoke to her? It’s not like it’s not possible, He’s spoken to plenty of saints, but she used the phrase like He did it all the time or something, and that’s how she got a lot of her knowledge?

It will be interesting.

Almost everyone at my old evangelical church uses that phrase, “the Lord spoke a word over me”. It’s a catchphrase that they use in other instances, like how we can “Speak prosperity” into our lives. Also I am very familiar with cut-and-paste scripture. A thousand protestants can take the same verse and apply it to a thousand issues, areas, and beliefs. I think that if a certain verse or passage means something to you, and helps you in your “race”, then it’s from the Holy Spirit. But when you start trying to form a doctrine around it, you are messing up. For doctrine, the entire Word needs to be taken into account by the Church that God established to preserve and protect it.

 

[Cat]

I don’t like Beth Moore’s studies.

I attended one of her seminars, and it was basically “here’s my idea and let me show you all the Bible verses that support my idea.”

I was very frustrated with this unscholarly approach and with the theatrics, and I am worried about my evangelical Protestant friends who consider this “good Bible study.” Forty years ago, it would have been condemned as fluff in the evangelical churches that I attended. We had deeper Bible studies in my youth group. (I still have some of the notes.)

What’s happened to my old pals, anyway?! It’s heartbreaking that they can be swayed so easily by a good show.

 

[bookgirl]

I don’t like Beth Moore’s studies.

I attended one of her seminars, and it was basically “here’s my idea and let me show you all the Bible verses that support my idea.”

I was very frustrated with this unscholarly approach and with the theatrics, and I am worried about my evangelical Protestant friends who consider this “good Bible study.” Forty years ago, it would have been condemned as fluff in the evangelical churches that I attended. We had deeper Bible studies in my youth group. (I still have some of the notes.)

What’s happened to my old pals, anyway?! It’s heartbreaking that they can be swayed so easily by a good show.

That’s exactly what it’s like. She came up with something and then went searching for verses. She was talking about how she spent a few days with some professors in religious studies at a college, and that they kind of “poo-pooed” her as someone who didn’t have any academic background. But God “spoke a word over her” and suddenly she knew things she hadn’t known before, and she amazed the professors. I think she said she could look at a Greek transcript and translate it to English, and she knew no Greek. ?

 

[Zenas]

I think she said she could look at a Greek transcript and translate it to English, and she knew no Greek.

I don’t think Beth Moore would say that. She is not a scholar but neither is she a charlatan like so many of her competitors.

 

[bookgirl]

I don’t think Beth Moore would say that. She is not a scholar but neither is she a charlatan like so many of her competitors.

She didn’t say she could do it all the time, but that it was a specific instance. And to her defense she made it very clear that she considered it God working through her. Like I said before, she was very dramatic and liked to be entertaining, but she does have a healthy dose of self-criticism which kind of balances the drama, if that makes any sense.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

That’s exactly what it’s like. She came up with something and then went searching for verses. She was talking about how she spent a few days with some professors in religious studies at a college, and that they kind of “poo-pooed” her as someone who didn’t have any academic background. But God “spoke a word over her” and suddenly she knew things she hadn’t known before, and she amazed the professors. I think she said she could look at a Greek transcript and translate it to English, and she knew no Greek. ?

That’s the gift of tongues. Though I wouldn’t dismiss claims to have received it lightly, it does need very careful investigation to establish the truth.