Evangelical "born again" experience: real, exaggeration, or hoax?

[FelixBlue]

From my own experience of being “born again” as a teenager, it was very real and truly changed my life.

I do think, though, that much of the experience can be brought about by “emotional massage” as in the “altar call” experience. But that is not to say it is a hoax or exaggeration.

As you know, for many evangelicals, one is not saved by baptism; rather, baptism is merely an “outward sign of inward repentence.” That is the formula my father, who was a minister, now Catholic, gave me when I was baptized in a swimming pool by him (for the second time). So for evangelicals one is not “born again” and then baptized in the Catholic sense…baptism is a kind of extra. Of course this is only to speak of some Protestants…

 

[mango_2003]

It is very, very real.

IMHO, there are cases, however, of times when certain people might claim they had such and such an experience and might be “faking it”. Although this may be the case, I also do not feel it is the business of you, or I, or anyone else but God to judge. That’s some shady ground.

~mango (born again)~

 

[asteroid]

Katholikos:

Don’t be insulted. Jesus was very clear. You must be baptized. The Church doesn’t say you weren’t – only that there is no evidence that you were. The Church needs evidence. She is the guardian of the Deposit of Faith left to her by the Apostles. You must be baptized in order to receive the other Sacraments. So you will be baptized conditionally – the priest will say “If you are not baptized, I baptize you . . .”

There’s lots of evidence that I was baptized - several hundred witnesses on the day, and the baptism was videoed. So it has been seen by thousands more at a conference and in the video that that church produced explaining the fundamentals of faith. But there is no piece of paper. The baptism was in the name of the trinity (and the name of Jesus, into the church, into the death,burial & resurrection of Jesus and every other statement that’s found anywhere in scripture). But there’s no piece of paper, and my word - plus the non paper evidence - isn’t good enough. No other church would question my baptism in this way and then perform an unnecessary ceremony, and while I understand that some people might fib about these things, I know I am not lying and feel that, for want of a piece of paper, my honesty is being questioned.

 

[Madaglan]

Ok, I think I’m beginning to understand a lot better the “born again” experience

My problem is that I was baptized when I was little, so I never “felt” a “born again” experience–although I underwent the “born again” process in baptism.

I’m honestly just a little threatened by evangelicals and fundamentalists who claim that I must have some kind of personal and revealing supernatural experience in order to enter heaven. I have had nothing of the like–not even when I went to confirmation. So, as you can imagine, I often wonder if I am truly Christian

Do you think that I’m really a Christian even though I have never experienced moments of personal conversion to Christ? Do you think that I can enter heaven without ever feeling God speak to me in my heart?

 

[asteroid]

Madaglan:

Do you think that I’m really a Christian even though I have never experienced moments of personal conversion to Christ? Do you think that I can enter heaven without ever feeling God speak to me in my heart?

Question 1 -

Yes. Though I know where the question comes from and it does seem in some places that if you haven’t had some way out experience you’re not “saved”. Which can leave people feeling at best second-class or at worst non-christians (people such as my wife who was made to feel that way in one church). But if you grow up from infancy with Christ it’s a bit difficult to get converted in any way. And if you are a later convert, for the majority it’s probably still a gradual inward process rather than a sudden experience.

So the answer to that question is - yes. (answer assumes that you are a christian not a buddhist or something!)

And the answer is - in a way I’m envious. That you didn’t have to go through all the spiritual places I did before finally coming home to Christ and now to His Church.

Question 2 -

Better leave that one to able catholics to answer. But probably yes again (humble not yet a proper catechist answer). After all, the walk of faith isn’t about feelings, but about obedience through bright days and dark nights. The walk is about truth rather than emotional highs or mystic revelations.

Some people have a walk that seems to depend on regular exciting experiences, else it dies. It’s very sad.

End answer. Hopefully not too many disagreements will follow.

Blessings

Asteroid

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Madaglan:

Ok, I think I’m beginning to understand a lot better the “born again” experience

My problem is that I was baptized when I was little, so I never “felt” a “born again” experience–although I underwent the “born again” process in baptism.

I’m honestly just a little threatened by evangelicals and fundamentalists who claim that I must have some kind of personal and revealing supernatural experience in order to enter heaven. I have had nothing of the like–not even when I went to confirmation. So, as you can imagine, I often wonder if I am truly Christian

Do you think that I’m really a Christian even though I have never experienced moments of personal conversion to Christ? Do you think that I can enter heaven without ever feeling God speak to me in my heart?

(In the above quote, the emphasis is mine) That was one of the problems with the Baptists for me. I never FELT that high, so I thought I was weird. I can’t remember whether it was Saint Teresa of Avila or Saint Therese who said it but (and this is a bad paraphrase) it’s isn’t the ecstacies and visions that matter, it’s the humble obedience. Since I became a Catholic, there have been moments, just before and after communion, when I thought my heart would break from gratitude, moments when the tears come. Moments, however, come and go. It’s the obedience of taking of one’s cross and following Jesus that matters.

 

[Katholikos]

asteroid:

No other church would question my baptism in this way and then perform an unnecessary ceremony, and while I understand that some people might fib about these things, I know I am not lying and feel that, for want of a piece of paper, my honesty is being questioned.

The Church is not questioning your honesty. If you choose to interpret the Church’s zealous guardianship of the Sacraments, given to her as a sacred trust by Christ, as a personal attack on you and your integrity, nothing anyone can say will dissuade you. I’ll remember you at the altar. May God enlighten you and give you peace.

JMJ Jay

 

[Annunciata]

Madaglan:

…Anyhow, my primary concern rests in how I should view these experiences. I read about these cruel and un-Christian people who claim that ever since their “born again” experience that they are completely different people. Some of my friends almost threaten me by the way they talk about these supernatural experiences as a must to be a Christian. Oftentimes I just tend to think that their experience is one of conversion that they have magnified into falsely believing that they are already saved once and for all. But I still feel a bit awkard in not knowing what their conversion experience is like, since I’ve never had anything of the sort. Could some of you ex-evangelicals maybe tell me how your “born again” experience was, how you viewed it before you became Catholic, and how you now view it as Catholic? Thanks! It really means a lot to me.

Oh yes…that wonderful “AHA! Experience”… when everything about God just seem right…Scripture came alive…I started to see everyone and everything in a new a better light… Well, that happend to me as a Catholic and not even in my Charismatic days…much later…just in my daily prayer time…all of a sudden a change happened…a conversion…I’ve had many conversion experiences over the years including my intial conversion to the Catholic Church. Hope this helps, God Bless, Annunciata

 

[Katholikos]

Madaglan:

Some of my friends almost threaten me by the way they talk about these supernatural experiences as a must to be a Christian. Oftentimes I just tend to think that their experience is one of conversion that they have magnified into falsely believing that they are already saved once and for all. But I still feel a bit awkard in not knowing what their conversion experience is like, since I’ve never had anything of the sort.

Just remember these facts:

Protestantism was invented by Martin Luther in 1517 in Germany.

Evangelicalism developed in the 1750s; some say it was an outgrowth of Wesleyism.

Fundamentalism was born in the United States in the early 20th century.

The Catholic Church was founded in Jerusalem in A.D. 33 by Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

Not to worry – if you’ve been baptized, you have been “born again” (John 3:3-5).

Christianity didn’t come out of a book, even one as sacred as the New Testament. The book came out of the Church. Original Christianity was the sum total of the teachings of the Catholic Church before the New Testament was written or the Bible as we know it was formed.

JMJ Jay

 

[asteroid]

Katholikos:

The Church is not questioning your honesty. If you choose to interpret the Church’s zealous guardianship of the Sacraments, given to her as a sacred trust by Christ, as a personal attack on you and your integrity, nothing anyone can say will dissuade you. I’ll remember you at the altar. May God enlighten you and give you peace.

JMJ Jay

According to canon law (876) to prove baptism of an adult has been conferred it is sufficient to have the sworn testimony of the baptised person - unless there is “conflict of interest”.

Could someone say what “conflict of interest” would be in the sense it is used in Can. 876? I can provide sworn testimony whenever it is wanted or needed (as long as I don’t have to swear on anything in heaven, on earth or under the earth). So what is the conflict of interest here? Once I understand the words “conflict of interest” and how they are to be applied I will understand exactly why my sworn testimony is not sufficient.

That’s the questioning over with. Must grab the priest at some point and discuss this in depth.

Btw - it’s not that I mind having to go through certain rites to enter the Church. I just wish that my “sworn testimony” was sufficient (can876) to prove my own baptism. And I wish that, if there is a doubt, that “serious enquiry” would be made as in Can. 869. This “serious enquiry” seems to be wholly lacking at present on the part of the parish/priest. (of course given the attitude of many in the church of my baptism to Catholicism, serious enquiry might be met with a dismayed silence)

Maybe a conditional baptism would be easier - a few minutes of extra liturgy rather than a little longer of enquiry - and maybe it doesn’t matter anyway. And who knows, maybe the trinitarian baptism of the Jesus Army isn’t valid for some reason. And, who knows, maybe the conditional baptism would end up surprising me by conferring a character that wasn’t there before. And at least I’d end up with a proper piece of paper I assume. Do you get a certificate with a conditional baptism? And combining baptism, confirmation and eucharist on one day is an amazing thing.

Anyway, time will tell - it’s a long time until then.

Ah well, I’ll be being confirmed twice - the first time wasn’t valid as it was in the wrong church. Fair enough. Obviously no character is imprinted in Anglican confirmation and those being confirmed are not enriched with the gift of the Holy Spirit. Looking forward to that imprinting and enrichment and finding out, practically rather than theoretically or 2nd hand, what they mean.

 

[Jordan32404]

Though I am not Catholic, and am currently Evangelical, though Calvinist, I can say that my salvation was life-changing. I didn’t ‘accept Jesus’ as they say, I just trusted Him, which is faith. I just prayed to Him in my room and pretty much just said ‘you’re right and i’m wrong, forgive me, i trust you.’ something of that matter, no tent revival, no altar call, no tract. I also want to say something about the nature of faith, faith is not a prayer, neither is it baptism or confirmation, but it can be expressed through both ways. Often times the Sinner’s Prayer as they call it becomes an empty ritual and the same for Confirmation (or Baptism if you are baptized as an adult). It’s the heart behind the expression that counts.

 

[Church_Militant]

Madaglan:

Ok, I think I’m beginning to understand a lot better the “born again” experience

My problem is that I was baptized when I was little, so I never “felt” a “born again” experience–although I underwent the “born again” process in baptism.

I’m honestly just a little threatened by evangelicals and fundamentalists who claim that I must have some kind of personal and revealing supernatural experience in order to enter heaven. I have had nothing of the like–not even when I went to confirmation. So, as you can imagine, I often wonder if I am truly Christian

Do you think that I’m really a Christian even though I have never experienced moments of personal conversion to Christ? Do you think that I can enter heaven without ever feeling God speak to me in my heart?

Mad…

The fact is that Catholics believe that we are born again at baptism. It is not just a symbol, but a sacrament that brings us into Christ’s church. The experience you keep hearing about is largely the result of the separation of the “salvation experience” from baptism among Protestants, most of whom believe that baptism is optional but not necessary for salvation. That is unBiblical & contarry to Catholic belief & teaching.

By the way, get a copy of Story of A Soul by St. Therese the Little Flower & read it. You’ll find that you are in very good company. I did. Now the Little Flower is one of my favorite people, & a close friend. You’ll probably fall in love with her too.

I also had a “born again” experience when I left the church at 17, but I realize now that it was just God’s way of getting my attention. I guess it’s like hearing something said in a different way that makes it real to you all of a sudden. So it did to me…

To be honest though, I now sort of consider Protestantism to be “Christianity Lite” (w/all due respect…I promise.) because I’ve found that there is just sooooo much more to real Christianity than that. It’s complex, like a huge , beautiful diamond, & I love to discover more of that beauty & power every day in my walk. “It ain’t easy”, as they say, but I don’t care. I love the presence of the Lord in my life and the communion of Saints, especially the Blessed Virgin. Now I’m consecrated Militia Immaculata & always ready to give an answer for the hope that is in me.

Hang in there, okay? …and stick around

Pax Tecum,

Michael

 

[Katholikos]

asteroid wrote:

Do you get a certificate with a conditional baptism? And combining baptism, confirmation and eucharist on one day is an amazing thing.

I got a baptismal certificate assuring me that I had been “baptized into God’s grace” on a specific date. It was signed by the Catholic priest who baptized and instructed me, and I knew that it was carefully and permanently recorded in the annals of the Church where it could be found even many hundreds of years later. I was grateful to receive it, even though I had been baptized twice previously. It says nothing about “conditinal baptism” even though the priest’s words were, “If you are not baptized, I baptize you . . .”

I grew up a Southern Baptist, but became an agnostic and later an atheist. Then God hit me over the head with a 2X4. I was so in love with the Catholic Church by the time I entered, I would have done anything required of me in order to be accepted into her fold. My nose had been pressed against the stained-glass window for a long, long time before I surrendered. I love her still, with all my heart and soul.

When G.K. Chesterton was asked why he became a Catholic, he replied, “To get my sins forgiven.” Yeah, what Gilbert Keith said!

Praise and exalt Him forever!

JMJ Jay

 

[Anonymous_1]

This is very interesting. This is one of the primary reasons why i have a hard time witht he Catholic faith, but im still trying to learn. I was raised Catholic, and supposedly we are Baptized by the Holy Spirit at confirmation, and baptism at birth cleanses us of our original sin.
That original sin is represented by the curtain in the Jewish temple between the altar and the Holy of Holies. It seperates us from God. If infant baptism and confirmation do what it claims to do, then when we are baptized and confirmed we should recieve the Holy Spirit, our sinful nature would be cut away, and we would have a relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit. However, i was baptized and confirmed, and i went on doing VERY bad things. Drugs and partying and all that. My entire life, i knew there was a God, but i didnt know God, and i certainly didnt have a personal relationship with Him. Also my entire life, I felt an emptiness, i wasnt complete, i wasnt fulfilled, and i was looking for all kinds of things in this world to fill that void. Drugs brought me to a very low place. And when i was in rehab i had a “moment of clarity” where i realized i was filthy, and i was wrethched, and guilty, and i needed help. I felt moved to pray, so i prayed and asked God for help.I couldnt help but cry it was so amazing and beautiful. I like…knew i was kneeling in God’s presense. At that time i had a powerful experience. Im not going to go into details, but i felt like God reached inside me and touched my heart. I havent been the same since. I wont go into much more detail, but Praise God! I am greatful that God came to me in this way, i dont think i could ever be the same. I tried bringing this to a Priest at my Church(which is Catholic) and he basically said I had a conversion experience. But let me tell you, i dont think i was a Christian by Infant Baptism or Confirmation, or maybe i was and didnt know it. Why is this so hard to believe anyway. Didnt Peter and the disciples have a powerful experience at Pentecost? What about Saul on the road to Damascus. Jesus said you must be born again, or born of the Spirit. I think that true Spiritual birth is when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit. Original Sin, seperates us from God, by being seperated from God we are dead. Until that Original Sin is cut away, i believe we are still dead in our sin, because we are seperated from God. Until we are Baptized by the Holy Spirit, until we are Born Again, we are not really Christians. Someone please e mail me if I am wrong.

As of now i dont understand or agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches, but i am trying to be open minded and trying to learn. Can anyone relate to me, have i said anythign that is not true? please e mail me.
liqwidstyx@yahoo.com

Gods peace be with you all.
~Matt

 

[Anonymous_1]

All the people who are wondering if they are Christians because they havent had a powerful experience. I cant answer that question. But in my pride, i thought that people who didnt have such an experience werent Christians. I see things differently now. Note the story of the lost sheep. 99 didnt wander away, 1 did. Who has more faith the person who believes because he or she has had an amazing experience. Or the person who believes and hasnt? Just continue seeking His face, and His will. He knows your heart if you do believe.

Actually its funny, after that day in rehab i felt like i was floating. I i felt complete ,and joyous, and free,etc,etc,etc. However i became attached to the feelings of Gods presence rather than God. So when i came off the pink cloud, and life started happening, and i started feeling some “bad” feelings, i thought i had “lost” it. As if i had ever “had it”. Haha! It has been a roller coaster, and a learning experience.

 

[WBB]

Anonymous_1:

All the people who are wondering if they are Christians because they havent had a powerful experience. I cant answer that question. But in my pride, i thought that people who didnt have such an experience werent Christians. I see things differently now. Note the story of the lost sheep. 99 didnt wander away, 1 did. Who has more faith the person who believes because he or she has had an amazing experience. Or the person who believes and hasnt? Just continue seeking His face, and His will. He knows your heart if you do believe.

Actually its funny, after that day in rehab i felt like i was floating. I i felt complete ,and joyous, and free,etc,etc,etc. However i became attached to the feelings of Gods presence rather than God. So when i came off the pink cloud, and life started happening, and i started feeling some “bad” feelings, i thought i had “lost” it. As if i had ever “had it”. Haha! It has been a roller coaster, and a learning experience.

I am confused, Matt. It would seem that this post refutes your previous one.

But I like your use of the 1 lost sheep. God in His wisdom will knock some people on the head to show them the error of their ways in order to return them to the fold, but if they are already in the fold, why would He need to do such a thing? I think that is what you are getting at. You mention in your previous post that you felt you were kneeling before the throne of God that day, but the truth is, everytime we pray we are approaching the throne of God.

I am happy that you had your experience and are responding to God’s call.

 

[asteroid]

Anonymous_1:

This is very interesting. This is one of the primary reasons why i have a hard time witht he Catholic faith, but im still trying to learn. I was raised Catholic, and supposedly we are Baptized by the Holy Spirit at confirmation, and baptism at birth cleanses us of our original sin.
That original sin is represented by the curtain in the Jewish temple between the altar and the Holy of Holies. It seperates us from God. If infant baptism and confirmation do what it claims to do, then when we are baptized and confirmed we should recieve the Holy Spirit, our sinful nature would be cut away, and we would have a relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit. However, i was baptized and confirmed, and i went on doing VERY bad things.

Just a note - I read this this morning and haven’t absorbed it properly. “Baptism does not remove our tendencies to sin, but gives us access to the helping grace of God called *actual grace … *Baptised, we have sanctifying and actual grace to help us live a morally good life. But we must also struggle against the weaknesses of human nature and against the temptations that attract to evil.”

That’s from a book sent out by the Catholic Home Study Service. I won’t comment on the quote from the book but will recommend the CHSS and am thankful for its existence. No comment here - as I’m only at the start of grasping or understanding catholic beliefs and practice.

Blessings

Asteroid

 

[FiliaDeo]

Madaglan,

Have you ever heard the song by Chris Rice “Smell the color 9”? I felt such a sense of relief when I heard this song because someone was finally able to put into words my feelings. Basically, the jist of the song is that he doesn’t hear God’s voice or experience the things other Christians talk about - to him it is like trying to smell the color 9.

I have been a Christian for 28 of the 33 years of my life. I was baptized Catholic, but raised in a non-denominational church. I always felt like a fish out of water. Never “heard” God speak to me, never had a conversion story, never had the “a-haa” moment. Just had faith and trusted that God was there and loved me as much as I loved Him. Then, at the age of 28, I joined the Catholic church - again, no dramatic revelations. But, what being Catholic has done for me is help me understand that whether or not you are a Christian has NOTHING to do with your emotions. If you feel close to God or far away from Him, it doesn’t matter. Whether you or the people around you are clapping hands, dancing in the aisle, saying hallelujah - doesn’t matter. God’s presence and saving grace is present no matter what. And when my family (who is upset I became Catholic) imply that I need a revival in my life to get back to Jesus, I go to the Church and sit in front of the Eucharist and am reminded that Jesus is present. And then I participate in mass and am reminded as I consume the host that Jesus is a part of me. He enters me and changes me and works through me, even if I don’t have the emotional high. Jesus is present and working in the Eucharist, and therefore in you, whether or not mass is a charismatic praise service or a more quiet, thoughtful service.

Hope that helps calm your doubts.

Jenn

Smell the Color 9

by Chris Rice

I would take no for an answer

Just to know I heard You speak

And I’m wonderin’ why I’ve never

Seen the signs they claim to see

Are the special revelations

Meant for everbody but me?

Maybe I don’t truly know You

Or maybe I just simply believe

'Cause I can sniff, I can see

I can count up pretty high

But these faculties aren’t getting me

any close to the sky

But my heart of faith keeps poundin’

So I know I’m doin’ fine

But sometimes finding You

Is just like trying to

Smell the color nine

Now I’ve never ‘felt the presence’

But I know You’re always near

And I’ve never ‘heard the calling’

But somehow You’ve lead me right here

So I’m not looking for burning bushes

Or some divine graffiti to appear

I’m just begging You for some wisdom

And believing You’re putting some here

repeat chorus

Smell the color nine?

But nine’s not a color

And even if it were you can’t smell a color

That’s my point exactly

 

[Anonymous_1]

isnt the purpose of the Catholic infant baptism to wash away original sin? Dosent that original sin seperate us from God? By being seperated from God are we not spiritually dead? When =He baptizes us int he Holy Spirit, are we not Born of the Spirit?That is we really become alive. So until our Sinful nature is truley cut away…circumcision of the heart, which is done by the Holy Spirit, we are seperated from God, therefore still dead in our sins, and under Gods wrath?

Right?
So the decisive factor is the Holy Spirit…Jesus said the Father was looking for those who would worship in Spirit and Truth, isnt the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Truth?
Im just throwing ideas out there
honestly i want to really have peace with the Catholic faith, i goto Catholic church and i really want to accept what they do. I just got the book why do Catholics do that, hopefully that will be a blessing, but as of now some of the teachings of the Catholic church dont sit right in my heart. However, i believe there are Catholics who are real Spirit filled people, and i also believe there are Protestants who are real Spirit filed people, i also believe there are people in all faiths who claim to be Catholic or Protestant, but we can tell a tree by its fruits.And i believe that God knows all of our hearts, so its not my place to try and state who is faithful,. and really Christian. But we are told to be wary as snakes, and to test the Spirits. So i do.

If anyone can help us out with these questions. Im just stating my experience so far.

May Gods grace be with you all .
~Matt

 

[MariaG]

Part of the key to understanding is to remember that God will never force Himself on you. While Baptism and Confirmation are times when God makes indelible marks on our soul, He does not take away our free will.

I was confirmed as an adult at the age of 37. I was a revert who never did it before I left the Church. It was completely amazing. It was so joyful. But the sad thing, was I watched many teenagers get confirmed, see the joy of the Holy Spirit on their face, and then see it slip away from a failure to be ready to really accept Him. They will probably not think anything happened when they were confirmed too. Something happened, but instead of embracing the Holy Spirit and rejoicing, they just failed to even say hello. Does this make sense?

As to Baptism, while original sin is removed,“we still must combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil.”(CCC # 978)

I hope this helps.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria