Evangelical "born again" experience: real, exaggeration, or hoax?

[asteroid]

FiliaDeo:

Madaglan,

Have you ever heard the song by Chris Rice “Smell the color 9”?

If anyone was impressed by the lyrics & posting - christianbook.com has the album with that song for sale on cassette for the not too expensive price of 29 cents. Plus postage.

Blessings

Asteroid

(No, I don’t work for christianbook.com - just browse their bargain pages too frequently!)

 

[Anonymous_1]

MariaG:

Part of the key to understanding is to remember that God will never force Himself on you. While Baptism and Confirmation are times when God makes indelible marks on our soul, He does not take away our free will.

I was confirmed as an adult at the age of 37. I was a revert who never did it before I left the Church. It was completely amazing. It was so joyful. But the sad thing, was I watched many teenagers get confirmed, see the joy of the Holy Spirit on their face, and then see it slip away from a failure to be ready to really accept Him. They will probably not think anything happened when they were confirmed too. Something happened, but instead of embracing the Holy Spirit and rejoicing, they just failed to even say hello. Does this make sense?

As to Baptism, while original sin is removed,“we still must combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil.”(CCC # 978)

I hope this helps.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

But hwat im saying is that until by the grace of God, i was born again almost a year ago, i was seperated from God. That baptism in the Holy Spirit is being born again. I dont think i was a Christian before than. Listen here is my point, until Christ came into my heart that day in rehab, i was seperated from God, i was still a slave to sin. And what controls you is your master. To thy ownself be true.

Anyway maybe Christ comes to different people in different ways. I dont think i was capable of having a relationship with God until that day last December when Christ had mercy on me.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Mike316:

I am currently attending RCIA knowing the Catholic Church is the true church of our Lord. I was “born again” given new life in Christ through a definite life changing experience. I won’t go into details, but it was not in a church and I was not lathered up in a “camp meeting”. I was alone physically but closer than a brother was the Lord spiritually. I pray that everyone could experience what I did. Don’t put a limit on God’s ability to touch a life. I was baptized at a later date when I understood what it meant. That was 11 years ago. I have come a long way since then. Be blessed. Mike

It can definitely be real. I know it by experience. And I’ve read many accounts of it, Protestant and Catholic. I was not even Catholic then, but Anglican I’ve seen too many vibrantly Christian people who had a similar experience to be able to dismiss it as a lie or a fraud.​

Theologically, in Catholic terms, it seems, in some instances, to be describable as a “quickening” of the latent grace of baptism. However it is described, it is strong stuff, with mighty effects - some immediate, some not: much as one might expect.

“God is at work in [us]” as He wills, “both to will and to work for His good pleasure”. To His Name be all the glory! ##

 

[jmm08]

I am in RCIA this year (and I’m 50 next month).

For me, the “born again” experience was real. I was water baptized as an infant. When I was still very young (maybe 4 or 5), my mother read Revalation chapters 21-22 to me (her adult Methodist Sunday School class was reading the book of Revalation). I credit my early upbringing (going to church, Sunday school, singing in youth choirs) with helping me with direction for much of the rest of my life.

Near the end of my freshman year in college, I prayed to ask Jesus to come into my heart. Sinners prayer. My life didn’t change dramatically right away. But the next year I participated in Campus Crusade for Christ large-group classes and activities and also went to small-group Bible studies. I also read from the Bible a whole lot and more often than before. And spent time in prayer. It was a very big help to me in protecting me from problems a lot of college-age people get involved with (pre-marital sex, alcohol abuse, drugs). I read a lot of Christian books, and my favorite Christian author was C. S. Lewis – I read perhaps 12-16" thick of his books back then.

Later (at about age 30), I began to talk to people about Jesus (witnessing). A great friend of mine showed me how to do it more effectively. About five years later, I came across a young woman I had talked to perhaps a few months before. They said I came up on their front porch as they and a few others had just quick smoking marijuana earlier. She had prayed to ask Jesus into their heart. And now she no longer smoked dope or got drunk. I gave her a New Testament. And I encouraged her to read her Bible every day and to start going to Church every Sunday. I was only active in my outreach for about six years – and always only part-time keeping my regular job.

This has been my experience: I almost never heard back from those I had somewhat randomly talked with about Jesus. Many people did not want Jesus, or did not want Jesus more than other things. Some people wanted Jesus more than anything else and did pray. Where they are now I don’t know. Actuarially speaking, I know that many of the people I talked with (either wanting or rejecting Jesus) are now no longer living in this world. At most I had only met one or two at a later time.

When I was in college, I talked with a student who wanted to be a Roman Catholic Priest. One of the things we disagreed about was this. He summarized our conversation and said I believed in a hard sell (telling people about Jesus and telling them that Jesus died so they would not have to go to hell). He said that he believed in a soft sell. Maybe that is what all Catholics think, I don’t know.

And for about a year, I sang in the Catholic Chapel Choir. In part, I wish I had also read a Cardinal Newman book and become Catholic earlier. A lot of college-age Catholics were excited and reading Cardinal Newman back then. Sadly, I do suppose if I had become a Catholic I subsequently might not have wanted to share Christ with others as I did when I was in my 30s. But, “God is in control” and it is a good thing to take comfort in that.

It was interesting when I first met with my Roman Catholic priest last June. He had a C. S. Lewis book on his bookshelf.

At this time, Jesus and Mary know what I need. So I pray that my wife and family will someday join me in my new Catholic faith. And someday that I might be in full communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[MariaG]

posted by Anonymous_1
But hwat im saying is that until by the grace of God, i was born again almost a year ago, i was seperated from God. That baptism in the Holy Spirit is being born again. I dont think i was a Christian before than. Listen here is my point, until Christ came into my heart that day in rehab, i was seperated from God, i was still a slave to sin. And what controls you is your master. To thy ownself be true.

Anyway maybe Christ comes to different people in different ways. I dont think i was capable of having a relationship with God until that day last December when Christ had mercy on me.

What you are trying to do is impose a different set of definitions on words that have been defined in the Catholic Christian religion for over a thousand years. Born again, by definition of the Catholic Church since the time of the Apostles has always meant Baptism. A baby is born again through baptism and is part of the body of Christ, a Christian just like infants in the Jewish religion that are circumcised on the eigth day and become part of the OT convenant that God established. I can not find the verse at this time, but there is at least one Bible verse that talks of Baptism replacing circumcision. In context, Baptism was understood by everyone at the time of the Apostles that infants should also receive baptism and be born again.

Non-Catholic Christians have in the last 400years, (it may actually be in the last 200years) changed the defintion of born again. Respectfully, I completely understand what you mean when you say you were born again. Respectfully, I say you had a born again experience, as per the Catholic Church defintion of 2000 years.

The difference is this, while I completely believe you when you say you had separated yourself from Christ, you were an adopted child of God through your baptism. You were just one that was going to Hell. The Prodigal Son. The Prodigal son did not lose his relationship with his father just because he walked away from his father. He just rejected the relationship. But that did not mean he did not belong to the family because of the prodigal son’s rejection of his family.

The people who believe you are not born again through baptism, believe that baptism is just a symbol. Catholic Christians believe it is an actual miracle of God in which original sin is removed from your soul. So for people who believe it is only a symbol, Christian is a label that only fits those who are currently following Christ. But for Catholics, you are a Christian the minute of your baptism. But there will be Christians who find themselves in Hell because they choose not to follow Him.

Is this making sense. I feel as if I am rambling. There is a difference here that you do not understand even though the same words are being used. I guess what I am saying is that you can certainly choose to use the definition of born again and think you are being Biblical by it. However, I can show you many Bible verses that show born again is Baptism. And I can show you history that shows this has always been how Christians have viewed it until the last couple hundred years.

And I do believe with you that Christ comes to people in many different ways. But it was not that Christ choose to have mercy on you on that December day, (It was in September for me), it is just on that day, you stopped rejecting Him and accepted the mercy that was available all that time.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[mark_a]

Folks-

Very good posts, I enjoyed reading some them, but I couldn’t read them all.

I sometimes wonder if I am less of a christian than people who have had these types of experiences. I have never had an emotional religious experience where it just seemed as if everything came together, and I don’t expect that I will ever have one. I have not knowingly closed myself off to this.

My “journey” seems to be a slow progression that started after I had kids. The more I learn and the more faith I develope, the further away from my “goal” I realize I am.

I’m pretty sure I’ll never have the “experience” in the way that so many of you have described, and honestly think it might not be a good thing for someone like me.

Is this terrible?

 

[jmm08]

MariaG:

What you are trying to do is impose a different set of definitions on words that have been defined in the Catholic Christian religion for over a thousand years. Born again, by definition of the Catholic Church since the time of the Apostles has always meant Baptism.

MariaG:
(a) A good number of people who find Jesus have not already been water baptized. So for them, when they first heard and welcomed the good news is an important time when they think “born again”.
(b) An infant getting water baptized includes a commitment of parent(s) to raise the child in the faith. Sometimes, this is an imperfect process. I’m not a theologian, so I don’t know the status of somebody getting water baptized as an infant and if the parents subsequently completely neglect bringing them up in the faith.
(c) Perhaps often a “born again” experience is a refreshing of the sacrament of Baptism.

I don’t know the theology or theory very well yet since I am only in RCIA. What I know better is my own experience.

During the American Civil War, the North and South were separate and different words were sometimes used to describe the same things. The First and Second Battles of Manassas were what the Southern newspapers reported. The Northern newspapers reported on the same battles and called them First and Second Battles of Bull Run.

Similarly, Catholics and Protestants have been separate. Perhaps to a large degree because Catholics refrain from attending Protestant worship services where communion is served. And Catholics always have communion at Mass so Protestants stay away as well. How sad. Today’s homily in my Catholic Church was so good. Yet if it were written out and printed, it would have been very hard to tell what denomination the author was. I’m sure some Catholics might have thought it was written by an Evangelical – yet it was a Catholic Priest. Christians share so many truths. And I know that Roman Catholics have so much more. I love Adoration of the Holy Eucharist. At best, most Protestants only have a Liturgy of the Word. Catholics also have the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

 

[MariaG]

**

posted by jmm08

MariaG:
(a)

A good number of people who find Jesus have not already been water baptized. So for them, when they first heard and welcomed the good news is an important time when they think “born again”.
(b) An infant getting water baptized includes a commitment of parent(s) to raise the child in the faith. Sometimes, this is an imperfect process. I’m not a theologian, so I don’t know the status of somebody getting water baptized as an infant and if the parents subsequently completely neglect bringing them up in the faith.
(c) Perhaps often a “born again” experience is a refreshing of the sacrament of Baptism.

When I was speaking, I was refering to him specifically. I believe he said he was a baptized Catholic but wasn’t born again until last December.

But even if he wasn’t baptized, People who have come along in the last 400 years have redefined what has always been understood to mean born again from Biblical times. I was pointing out he could continue to use the change defintion, but it was not being fair to Catholics to say they don’t understand something. They changed the Biblical defintion not Catholics.

There are so many more things to say and a three year old hanging on my leg now so, until next time,

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

p.s.

I would be one of those baptized infants whose parents neglected the faith. I believe God is able to more readily reach us and show us the truth. I would agree that it is a refreshing for those who have already been baptized.
**

 

[Uncle_Abee]

This “born again” experience that many protestants (and some Catholics) experience is not salvation. The Holy Ghost can infiltrate anyone it wants to. Therefore I can’t say that non-Christians did not have a Holy Ghost experience. I can say that this is not salvation.

In the story of Cornelius in Acts 10, the gentiles received the Holy Ghost after Peter preached to them. They received it in the same manner as on the day of Pentecost. They had a HG experience. Still, to be saved they had to submit to baptism. In Acts 10:47 Peter says - Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Salvation was not complete until after Baptism. We also know that the HG experience did not save them because Peter says in Acts 11:14 when recounting the story - Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. The gentiles were to be saved by following the *words *spoken and not by the HG experience.

This evangelical experience is not scriptural and it is not salvation. This experience is a conviction experience. It is driven by feelings and emotions. But, we are not saved by our feelings because everybody experiences different feelings. If we were there would be some New Testament example of this. There are none. When this experience occurs you are convicted but not saved.

Conviction comes about in many different ways. In the scriptures some were convicted after they were healed. Some after the word was spoken to them. Some after they witnessed a miracle. There are many ways to conviction but only one way to salvation. That is why all who were convicted had to submit to baptism.

To be saved one must 1) Hear God’s word (Matt 7:24), 2) Believe what you heard (John 8:24), 3) Repent (Luke 13:3), 4) Confess Christ’s name (Matt 10:32), 5) Be baptized (Acts 2:38) for the remission of sins. That is scriptural. All else is not and is man-made.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Uncle Abee:

This “born again” experience that many protestants (and some Catholics) experience is not salvation. The Holy Ghost can infiltrate anyone it wants to. Therefore I can’t say that non-Christians did not have a Holy Ghost experience. I can say that this is not salvation.

In the story of Cornelius in Acts 10, the gentiles received the Holy Ghost after Peter preached to them. They received it in the same manner as on the day of Pentecost. They had a HG experience. Still, to be saved they had to submit to baptism. In Acts 10:47 Peter says - Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Salvation was not complete until after Baptism. We also know that the HG experience did not save them because Peter says in Acts 11:14 when recounting the story - Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. The gentiles were to be saved by following the *words *spoken and not by the HG experience.

This evangelical experience is not scriptural and it is not salvation. This experience is a conviction experience. It is driven by feelings and emotions. But, we are not saved by our feelings because everybody experiences different feelings. If we were there would be some New Testament example of this. There are none. When this experience occurs you are convicted but not saved.

Conviction comes about in many different ways. In the scriptures some were convicted after they were healed. Some after the word was spoken to them. Some after they witnessed a miracle. There are many ways to conviction but only one way to salvation. That is why all who were convicted had to submit to baptism.

To be saved one must 1) Hear God’s word (Matt 7:24), 2) Believe what you heard (John 8:24), 3) Repent (Luke 13:3), 4) Confess Christ’s name (Matt 10:32), 5) Be baptized (Acts 2:38) for the remission of sins. That is scriptural. All else is not and is man-made.

Hi uncle Abee, you forgott #6 Putting Gods Word into action. God Bless.

 

[Kevan]

mark a:

I’m pretty sure I’ll never have the “experience” in the way that so many of you have described, and honestly think it might not be a good thing for someone like me. Is this terrible?

Most of us fundamentalists understand that different people have different experiences. We never expect everybody to have an emotional encounter where great changes in feeling take place.

On the other hand, Jesus said “He who hears my words and believes on him who sent me has eternal life; and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.” When St. Paul describes the salvation of the Gentiles in Ephesians 2, he says that they were dead in trespasses and sins until God made them alive by grace, through faith.

To have some emotional experience is not the important thing. The important thing is to pass from death to life. Plenty of people receive the sacraments, yet prove by their lives that they are just like the ones St. Paul described in Ephesians 2: dead in trespasses and sins.

Repentance and faith: they take various forms from one group to another, but the fruit is holiness; and the end, everlasting life (Romans 6:22).

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Madaglan:

What confuses me even more is that many Catholic Charismatics I know say that after being Baptized in the Spirit that they have become “born again.”

Last Jan/Feb I attended a Life in the Spirit seminar at my parish. In our small groups one night someone started talking about having a “born again” experience. I tried to explain what the Catholic Church means by being born again and was immediately slammed down by the two small group leaders. They had completely embraced the Protestant notion of being born again and seemed completely ignorant of the fact that the Catholic Church uses the term in a different way. Can’t even begin to tell you how frustrating that was, mostly because in their well-meaning ignorance several people from our small group left there that night with misinformation.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Just because you go to church,it doesnt make you a christian. Just like if you slept in your garage it wouldnt make you a car.How do we know if we are truly born again ? Jesus said we must be born again. A second birth by the spirit of the living God.When that spirit lives and dwells in us we will become a new creation. We put the old aside and become new.Have you given your life 100% to Jesus? Are you dying to sin every die and crucifying your flesh to the cross? Are we obeying the commandments of God. Jesus said if you do not obey me you do not love me.Are we living every day being the eyes,ears, hands feet, mouth of Jesus Christ.Are we reaching out to the lost and bringing the good news as Jesus commands us to? Are we seperating ourselves from the unsaved of this world and not living like them? Are we giving of our time, talent and treasure to the Lord? Do we have a personal and intimate relationship with our Lord. I could keep going on but these are a few questions to ask ourselves to see if we are truly born again. Something to think about? God Bless.

 

[DixiesFinest]

Maybe some of you ex-evangelicals can help me out with this. For much of my life I never even knew about the evangelical notion of being “born again” at one moment in life before being baptized. Ever since going to college about four years ago, however, I have become more aware of this relatively novel Christian belief.

Many of my friends claim that at one time in their lives they repented and gave themselves to Christ, and Wallah!, they suddenly feel totally new, and then become convinced that they are saved and that nothing can keep them out of heaven. I’m referring of course to the notion of Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS). Anyhow, what really concerns me is the fact that these people claim to have a profound religious experience by which everything all of a sudden makes sense to them, and that they are assured of their salvation. What confuses me even more is that many Catholic Charismatics I know say that after being Baptized in the Spirit that they have become “born again.”

Anyhow, my primary concern rests in how I should view these experiences. I read about these cruel and un-Christian people who claim that ever since their “born again” experience that they are completely different people. Some of my friends almost threaten me by the way they talk about these supernatural experiences as a must to be a Christian. Oftentimes I just tend to think that their experience is one of conversion that they have magnified into falsely believing that they are already saved once and for all. But I still feel a bit awkard in not knowing what their conversion experience is like, since I’ve never had anything of the sort.

Could some of you ex-evangelicals maybe tell me how your “born again” experience was, how you viewed it before you became Catholic, and how you now view it as Catholic? Thanks! It really means a lot to me.

I do not answer for the Charismatics…they always kinda weirded me out.

However, as an ex Southern Baptist, I can tell you that this “experience” isnt so much as a momentous occasion, but simply God having mercy on a penitent sinner. I was not baptized as an infant (remember, Southern Baptist), but my parents taught me from day one to love the Lord my God and follow His commandments. At age 4, I “asked JESVS into my heart.” A simpler way to put it: I got on my knees and for the first time of my own free will begged forgiveness for my sins. Was it real? Yes, I humbled myself and God forgave me.

The problem of course, was after the fact of forgiveness, it would be another 15 years before I would return to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church…darn.