Evangelical Catholic

[kotek]

It has been some time since I have posted here. The last time I posted here I was on the balance of whether or not to leave the Church and become a non-Roman Catholic Christian. I really don’t want to go elsewhere because I have too many issues with non Catholic Churches as well. That being said I choose to stay in the Catholic Church BUT I simply cannot believe some Catholic beliefs. I also consider myself an “Evangelical Catholic” meaning that I do believe many things our Evangelical Christian brothers and sisters believe.

Catholic Dogmas I cannot come to believe:

1. Papal Infallibility. I do not believe that the Pope is Infallible. He can make mistakes just like any of us, and yes I do know what the Dogma of Papal Infallibility is, it means that when the Pope speaks ex-cathedra on any matter of Faith and Morals he is Infallible.
2. I don’t accept any “Ecumenical Council” after the split between East and West because after the split there were no true Ecumenical Councils of the ENTIRE Church East and West.IE Trent and Vatican I and II are local non-binding councils.
3. I accept wholeheartedly the Lutheran and Reformed views of Justification by Faith as the true and Biblical Theology of how we are Justified and saved.
4. I don’t believe in Purgatory or Indulgences
5. Roman Catholic Marian Dogma.If one wants to believe that Mary was Immaculately Conceived and Assumed into Heaven and that she remained Ever-Virgin then that is fine If one wants to believe that as “Pious Belief” then ok, but those who don’t are equally entitled to not believe those things and still be Catholic. I also believe that most Marian Devotion and Piety goes too far and for all practical purposes replaces Jesus with Mary.
6. I do believe that the Catholic Church is right in what is believed about Baptism and the Eucharist.
7. Confession. I believe that we are to Confess our sins directly to God. As far as “Sacramental Confession” goes there are some that may be troubled by some particular sins, or those who need some outward assurance that they have been forgiven then by all means they should “go to Confession” IE Some Should, All May, None Must.

Thats it, the views of an Evangelical Catholic. So under those conditions I remain in the Catholic Church.

 

[BRB]

You, a Catholic … with all these Protestant beliefs ?

Did the Church teach you all these ? Something is very weird.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

It has been some time since I have posted here. The last time I posted here I was on the balance of whether or not to leave the Church and become a non-Roman Catholic Christian. I really don’t want to go elsewhere because I have too many issues with non Catholic Churches as well. That being said I choose to stay in the Catholic Church BUT I simply cannot believe some Catholic beliefs. I also consider myself an “Evangelical Catholic” meaning that I do believe many things our Evangelical Christian brothers and sisters believe.

Catholic Dogmas I cannot come to believe:

1. Papal Infallibility. I do not believe that the Pope is Infallible. He can make mistakes just like any of us, and yes I do know what the Dogma of Papal Infallibility is, it means that when the Pope speaks ex-cathedra on any matter of Faith and Morals he is Infallible.
2. I don’t accept any “Ecumenical Council” after the split between East and West because after the split there were no true Ecumenical Councils of the ENTIRE Church East and West.IE Trent and Vatican I and II are local non-binding councils.
3. I accept wholeheartedly the Lutheran and Reformed views of Justification by Faith as the true and Biblical Theology of how we are Justified and saved.
4. I don’t believe in Purgatory or Indulgences
5. Roman Catholic Marian Dogma.If one wants to believe that Mary was Immaculately Conceived and Assumed into Heaven and that she remained Ever-Virgin then that is fine If one wants to believe that as “Pious Belief” then ok, but those who don’t are equally entitled to not believe those things and still be Catholic. I also believe that most Marian Devotion and Piety goes too far and for all practical purposes replaces Jesus with Mary.
6. I do believe that the Catholic Church is right in what is believed about Baptism and the Eucharist.
7. Confession. I believe that we are to Confess our sins directly to God. As far as “Sacramental Confession” goes there are some that may be troubled by some particular sins, or those who need some outward assurance that they have been forgiven then by all means they should “go to Confession” IE Some Should, All May, None Must.

Thats it, the views of an Evangelical Catholic. So under those conditions I remain in the Catholic Church.

You are not a Catholic so quit trying to use our name.

 

[kmleo]

kotek,

It seems like you are struggling to find peace, and I pray that God will bless you with grace you need to discern all of this. However, I have to agree with the PP’s: You have denounced some very basic and fundamental tenants of the Catholic Church and announced that you embrace “wholeheartedly” Protestant dogmas. You have already abandoned the Church, as ours is not a religion that is compatible with the cafeteria style of belief.

May I ask why you feel you must “stay” even though, by your own admission, you have already left? Do you feel that by sticking around you can convert the rest of us to your slanted views? I am afraid that will only bring you further discontent and frustration. The Catholic Church will prevail not only against the gates of hell, but against our petty worldviews. Perhaps you should take some time to devote to prayer. I will pray for you also. If you truly seek the truth, then He will grant it to you.

Peace be with you!

 

[prodigal-sun]

It has been some time since I have posted here. The last time I posted here I was on the balance of whether or not to leave the Church and become a non-Roman Catholic Christian. I really don’t want to go elsewhere because I have too many issues with non Catholic Churches as well. That being said I choose to stay in the Catholic Church BUT I simply cannot believe some Catholic beliefs. I also consider myself an “Evangelical Catholic” meaning that I do believe many things our Evangelical Christian brothers and sisters believe.

Catholic Dogmas I cannot come to believe:

1. Papal Infallibility. I do not believe that the Pope is Infallible. He can make mistakes just like any of us, and yes I do know what the Dogma of Papal Infallibility is, it means that when the Pope speaks ex-cathedra on any matter of Faith and Morals he is Infallible. You say you understand but by your statement in bold above makes us think otherwise.
2. I don’t accept any “Ecumenical Council” after the split between East and West because after the split there were no true Ecumenical Councils of the ENTIRE Church East and West.IE Trent and Vatican I and II are local non-binding councils.These councils are not binding on any churches (including eastern)not in communion with Rome.
3. I accept wholeheartedly the Lutheran and Reformed views of Justification by Faith as the true and Biblical Theology of how we are Justified and saved.That’s interesting, so where it claims in scripture that one is not saved by faith alone is not acceptable to you?
4. I don’t believe in Purgatory or IndulgencesI pray that when you die you will find out first hand how wrong you are!
5. Roman Catholic Marian Dogma.If one wants to believe that Mary was Immaculately Conceived and Assumed into Heaven and that she remained Ever-Virgin then that is fine If one wants to believe that as “Pious Belief” then ok, but those who don’t are equally entitled to not believe those things and still be Catholic. I also believe that most Marian Devotion and Piety goes too far and for all practical purposes replaces Jesus with Mary.Anyone who replaces Jesus with Mary does not understand and/or follow the Catholic Church! As a Catholic you do not have to understand this Dogma or even follow it but you must accept it as a truth.
6. I do believe that the Catholic Church is right in what is believed about Baptism and the Eucharist. well at least we got 2 out of 7 correct. Thank you so much for giving us your most important infallible approval!
7. Confession. I believe that we are to Confess our sins directly to God. As far as “Sacramental Confession” goes there are some that may be troubled by some particular sins, or those who need some outward assurance that they have been forgiven then by all means they should “go to Confession” IE Some Should, All May, None Must.If only we could be assured of our perfect contrition!

Thats it, the views of an Evangelical Catholic. So under those conditions I remain in the Catholic Church.Well if you were the one to set the conditions I would say good for you, but since it is the church that has the authority to set the conditions I will smile and say a small pray for your humble return to the church when you are ready to leave the cafeteria and join us at the banquet.
Peace!

 

[kotek]

You are not a Catholic so quit trying to use our name.

I have run into many Catholics who believe the same things I do. So if you say I am not Catholic then at least half of the Catholics I know aren’t. And BTW the Lutheran/Catholic Document which both the Catholic Church and the Lutherans signed essentially agree with each other. I have read it and done research. Catholic Theologians are all but coming out and saying Luther was essentially right about Justification by Faith. Rome is trying to distance itself from Trent.

As to Papal Infallibility all one has to do is study the history of the Papacy to see how Popes have contradicted each other. I am not saying there shouldn’t be a Pope, but simply that they have and can err. Even the great Augustine said that if the Catholic Bishops (and this would include the Pope) were wrong or taught heresy then the Faithful (us) are not obligated to agree with or believe them.

 

[jfoges]

You are not a Catholic so quit trying to use our name.

Hey “brother” rich,

If he says he is a catholic, then he is a catholic. You are in no position to judge who is catholic or not, so back off “brother”. Are you clergy or is this “brother” title an example of some online fraud pretending to be clergy.

 

[BRB]

Even the great Augustine said that if the Catholic Bishops (and this would include the Pope) were wrong or taught heresy then the Faithful (us) are not obligated to agree with or believe them.

And he was right to doubt that it could/would ever happen. After 2000 years, show us where the faith and morals of Church were ever wrongly taught.

 

[jfoges]

It has been some time since I have posted here. The last time I posted here I was on the balance of whether or not to leave the Church and become a non-Roman Catholic Christian. I really don’t want to go elsewhere because I have too many issues with non Catholic Churches as well. That being said I choose to stay in the Catholic Church BUT I simply cannot believe some Catholic beliefs. I also consider myself an “Evangelical Catholic” meaning that I do believe many things our Evangelical Christian brothers and sisters believe.

Catholic Dogmas I cannot come to believe:

1. Papal Infallibility. I do not believe that the Pope is Infallible. He can make mistakes just like any of us, and yes I do know what the Dogma of Papal Infallibility is, it means that when the Pope speaks ex-cathedra on any matter of Faith and Morals he is Infallible.
2. I don’t accept any “Ecumenical Council” after the split between East and West because after the split there were no true Ecumenical Councils of the ENTIRE Church East and West.IE Trent and Vatican I and II are local non-binding councils.
3. I accept wholeheartedly the Lutheran and Reformed views of Justification by Faith as the true and Biblical Theology of how we are Justified and saved.
4. I don’t believe in Purgatory or Indulgences
5. Roman Catholic Marian Dogma.If one wants to believe that Mary was Immaculately Conceived and Assumed into Heaven and that she remained Ever-Virgin then that is fine If one wants to believe that as “Pious Belief” then ok, but those who don’t are equally entitled to not believe those things and still be Catholic. I also believe that most Marian Devotion and Piety goes too far and for all practical purposes replaces Jesus with Mary.
6. I do believe that the Catholic Church is right in what is believed about Baptism and the Eucharist.
7. Confession. I believe that we are to Confess our sins directly to God. As far as “Sacramental Confession” goes there are some that may be troubled by some particular sins, or those who need some outward assurance that they have been forgiven then by all means they should “go to Confession” IE Some Should, All May, None Must.

Thats it, the views of an Evangelical Catholic. So under those conditions I remain in the Catholic Church.

You are not the only Catholic who has trouble with ideas like papal infallibility. You are doiing fine. You are still a Catholic. Remember, the center of the Catholic faith is Christ in the Eucharist, not dogma.

 

[kentuckyliz]

If he were pretending to be clergy, he would have called himself Fr. Rich. Brothers aren’t clergy.

To the OP: have you considered the Orthodox church? It sounds like it might be right up your alley for your constellation of beliefs.

 

[BRB]

You are not the only Catholic who has trouble with ideas like papal infallibility. You are doiing fine. You are still a Catholic. Remember, the center of the Catholic faith is Christ in the Eucharist, not dogma.

The only reason Christ remains today in the Eucharist is due to Church dogma, the fearless ECF’s of yesteryear, and papal infallibility.

 

[prodigal-sun]

I have run into many Catholics who believe the same things I do. So if you say I am not Catholic then at least half of the Catholics I know aren’t.Yes, but the other half are. THe Catholic church is not a democracy we do not vote on what is truth. So having half of the catholics you know believe something is true has no consequence to what is TRUE! And BTW the Lutheran/Catholic Document which both the Catholic Church and the Lutherans signed essentially agree with each other. I have read it and done research. Catholic Theologians are all but coming out and saying Luther was essentially right about Justification by Faith.Can you please provide this research you are pointing too… What is it the the Catholic church and the Lutherean church is in agreement about? Rome is trying to distance itself from Trent. What on eatrh are you babbling about here… any proof to back up this claim or is this mere speculation?

As to Papal Infallibility all one has to do is study the history of the Papacy to see how Popes have contradicted each other. Once again you will have to give us specifics on any and all contradictions… I can’t take your word for it. YOu will need to back up any of these statements or apologize for your baseless assertions.I am not saying there shouldn’t be a Pope, but simply that they have and can err. Even the great Augustine said that if the Catholic Bishops (and this would include the Pope) were wrong or taught heresy then the Faithful (us) are not obligated to agree with or believe them.

And of St. Agustine was correct, If any of our Priest or Bishops are teaching heresies we are not obligated to agree or believe them. But then once again you would have to show where any of our Bishops taught such heresies. So far all your accusations and baseless assertions have mounted to nothing more than mental masturbation. Either bring some tangible proof or as my Dad would say, “get of the pot”

Peace!

 

[jfoges]

The only reason Christ remains today in the Eucharist is due to Church dogma, the fearless ECF’s of yesteryear, and papal infallibility.

The only reason Christ remains in the Eucharist is due to Church dogma? Are you kidding me?

 

[prodigal-sun]

The only reason Christ remains in the Eucharist is due to Church dogma? Are you kidding me?

I think what BRB is trying to say is that without the churches ability and authority given to it by Christ. The true belief of the Eucharist and any other Church Dogma could/would have beed completley washed done into nothing so no truth could be known for sure. This is not what the church believes and by extension is is what a Catholic in communion with Rome believes.

If it wasn’t for church Dogma and Infallibility how would the church keep the truth within it. Jesus himself promised to the church really does need to be understood in this context!

Peace!

 

[ricko]

You can call yourself a Catholic just as some have called themselves war heros but never served in the military. Even if 99% of Catholics agreed with your thinking it would not justify your beliefs. The Church is not a democracy and you can’t change its teachings to suit your personal beliefs. If everyone did that the Catholic Church would be no different from any Protestant church. It would be better if you would just THINK you are a Catholic but do not broadcast it as you may confuse others who are trying to find their way to the Church. You are actually a fallen away Catholic. I’m not sure that you know very much about the Church actually since you identify yourself as a Roman Catholic Christian. Any true Catholic would not add “Christian” to that title since being a Catholic is being a Christian. It’s like saying “I am a Christian Christian”. I would wish that you study Catholicism more and maybe talk to a good priest before you walk out the door.

 

[kotek]

You can call yourself a Catholic just as some have called themselves war heros but never served in the military. Even if 99% of Catholics agreed with your thinking it would not justify your beliefs. The Church is not a democracy and you can’t change its teachings to suit your personal beliefs. If everyone did that the Catholic Church would be no different from any Protestant church. It would be better if you would just THINK you are a Catholic but do not broadcast it as you may confuse others who are trying to find their way to the Church. You are actually a fallen away Catholic. I’m not sure that you know very much about the Church actually since you identify yourself as a Roman Catholic Christian. Any true Catholic would not add “Christian” to that title since being a Catholic is being a Christian. It’s like saying “I am a Christian Christian”. I would wish that you study Catholicism more and maybe talk to a good priest before you walk out the door.

Well excuse me for phrasing it that way, I was merely trying to say not all Christians are Roman Catholic and I have heard some people who are Catholics refer to themselves as Roman Catholic Christians.

As far as speaking to a Priest, I already have. I have mentioned to him that I have doubts about some uniquely Catholic Dogmas and that I may never come to see that they are true. He told me to stay in the Church and continue to pray and seek God’s guidance and that because I have these issues does not make me a “bad” or “lapsed” Catholic. He also told me not to let others tell me that I am “not Catholic”, that everyone wrestles and struggles with their Faith at times and that it is actually a sign of an active Faith because it is a part of “Faith seeking understanding” and that even Mother Theresa had doubts and struggles.

 

[ibkc]

kotek,
Since you categorically reject so many Catholic teachings, why do you even want to call yourself Catholic? I don’t get it.

 

[Philthy]

It has been some time since I have posted here. The last time I posted here I was on the balance of whether or not to leave the Church and become a non-Roman Catholic Christian. I really don’t want to go elsewhere because I have too many issues with non Catholic Churches as well. That being said I choose to stay in the Catholic Church

Catholic Dogmas I cannot come to believe:

1. Papal Infallibility. I do not believe that the Pope is Infallible.
2. I don’t accept any “Ecumenical Council” after the split between East and West
3. I accept wholeheartedly the Lutheran and Reformed views of Justification by Faith as the true and Biblical Theology of how we are Justified and saved.
4. I don’t believe in Purgatory or Indulgences
5. Roman Catholic Marian Dogma.
6. I do believe that the Catholic Church is right in what is believed about Baptism and the Eucharist.
7. Confession. I believe that we are to Confess our sins directly to God. As far as “Sacramental Confession” goes …None Must.

Thats it, the views of an Evangelical Catholic. So under those conditions I remain in the Catholic Church.

There are some very fundamental beliefs that must be accepted on faith - even if you dont understand them - in order to consider yourself Catholic. That distinction between accepting them and not understanding them is important. It is encouraging that you embrace the Eucharist and Baptism according to Catholic teaching. I cant imagine how you can embrace the Catholic notion of Baptism and simultaneously hold to a non-Catholic view of justification - that means you probably dont understand either view particularly well. Now **perhaps you have your own notion of what it means to be Catholic, but if you dont trust the Catholic Church to even determine that, then what’s the point of saying you are Catholic? **
Do you mean to substitute the word “saved” for “Catholic”? If you have rejected all other forms of Christianity for whatever reason then it’s time for you to embrace your new identity as a “non-denominational Christian”. It does have the benefit of immediately elevating yourself to Pope! :yup: Seriously though, pretending you are Catholic simply because you “choose to” seems silly. It seems silly because it is silly - honest.
If you wish to discuss the issues that you are having trouble with then pick one and begin a new thread.

 

[mark_a]

As far as speaking to a Priest, I already have. I have mentioned to him that I have doubts about some uniquely Catholic Dogmas and that I may never come to see that they are true. He told me to stay in the Church and continue to pray and seek God’s guidance and that because I have these issues does not make me a “bad” or “lapsed” Catholic. He also told me not to let others tell me that I am “not Catholic”, that everyone wrestles and struggles with their Faith at times and that it is actually a sign of an active Faith because it is a part of “Faith seeking understanding” and that even Mother Theresa had doubts and struggles.

Questions or difficulties are par for the Catholic course. One places himself outside the Church when one denies a dogma.

For instance, understanding the Trinity is not possible for me. Neither is there any chance of understanding the hypostatic union. But I accept these dogmas.

Do you have any problems with the moral teachings of the Church?

 

[Philthy]

I have run into many Catholics who believe the same things I do. So if you say I am not Catholic then at least half of the Catholics I know aren’t. .

Many who claim to be Catholic are not. It is not a popularity contest and take no solace in the reality that you can find lots of people who unilaterally consider themselves “good Catholics” who most probably are not.