Evangelical Converts (me!) arrogant? Fixated on Authority?

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

where I have lived in the southern United States evangelicals and fundamentalists are the same group.
But I have come to notice that a few of the fundamentalists are drawing lines between ‘rich’ and ‘poor’ in the evangelical movement. Some of the local rural fundamentalists (in Tennessee and Alabama and Georgia where I was) do not hold to the Prosperity Preachers who come from other areas like the midwest or what is considered the ‘border’ southern states like Virginia (where I am now) or ‘migrant’ states like Florida.
Is arrogance the intellectual property of just evangelicals? or fundamentalists, or southerners? or midwesterners? or yankees? or Americans in general?
I don’t know. But it IS tiring. and discouraging. so what can we do to stop it in ourselves and not encourage it in others we meet? (I mean sometimes I think I might come across wrong and people get defensive and arrogant–I don’t want that to happen anymore.)
Ravyn

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

You sound very bitter and angry. Why don’t you just forgive every one that has ever hurt you and live in that forgiveness? Why do you need to receive an apology?

many who have come from evangelicals and fundamentalists to Catholicism have come thru pain and suffering. There is no other reason to ever leave those groups–if you are not emotionally devastated or spiritually disillusioned why else would you leave? Change comes from pain. We may be able to forgive the people who have hurt us, but to forgive the religion that has hurt us? It is a deep betrayal. It takes every effort of ours to not blame God for this! It is equivalent to the child abuse scandals for many of us.
It just is not that easy. And it is something we work at every day.
Most of us, I take the chance of admitting, do not need an apology, just some validation that it did occur and it was hurtful.

Ravyn

 

[Bennie_P]

The mark of a Christian is to always love and always forgive no matter the circumstance. Never holding a grudge, never. Bitterness leads to all sorts of unChristian-like paths.

This statement has a lot truth to it, but I hope you are not sayig that choosing the Catholic Church is an un-Christian-like path.

One of the first steps to healing amd forgiveness is to acknowledge a hurt in its proper light. And I think CAT is doing that. From what I read, CAT seems to see the failure of the church she came out of because it didn’t have a clear sense of authority which caused an abuse of authority which in turn caused great pain for many involved. such things can happen and have happen in the Catholic Church, but because of Church authority, correction of abuse, in my opinion, is more likely to happen.

many who have come from evangelicals and fundamentalists to Catholicism have come thru pain and suffering. There is no other reason to ever leave those groups–if you are not emotionally devastated or spiritually disillusioned why else would you leave? Ravyn

Though I was recovering from a time of pain and suffering when I decided to come into full-comunion with the Catholic Church, it was self-inflected pain and no fault of my non-Catholic brothers and sisters in the church I left. In fact I was given great support from my pastors and others from my church when I decided to come into the Catholic Church and I have great relationships still with many of my non-demonitional brothers and sisters today, though they are not ready to follow me home to Rome - yet.

What I saw was the fullness of the faith in the Catholic Church, something I didn’t see in my old church, though I saw God working in it, and I was seeking to be in the Father’s will and he gave me the Grace to follow His will for my life.

I hope none that come into the Catholic Church have to suffer pain in order to see the fullness of faith, but if you do or did I’m glad His arms are there to give you comfort.

 

[Cat]

Ravyn_Guiliani, you raised another point that I’ve noticed about evangelical converts to Catholicism.

A lot of us seem to have ANGER in us toward our former churches. Yes, we are grateful for all that they did for us and taught us, especially the Bible knowledge that they imparted to us.

But what bothered me and my husband, and quite a few of our evangelical friends, is that we are angry that we didn’t know about the Catholic church sooner! In many cases, the evangelical churches didn’t even mention church fathers or any church history until after the Reformation.

So we’re probably more angry with ourselves for just sitting around all those years and not looking!

But I’ve also noticed that the anger tends to fade after a few months. After all, God is in charge, not us, and He must have wanted us to stay in the evangelical churches a little longer before leading us hom. It’s not right of us to question His timing.

 

[byers]

Cat…Just addressing the first part of your post. I’m an old cradle catholic, but many in my family are converts. I love the converts. They love the Church and are so thankful to have found it…and generally they have learned so much…probably in some cases a lot more than cradle catholics who have not studied their faith much. With their enthusiasm they are such a blessing to the whole church.

I think I know what you mean about the arrogance…although from your post you certainly don’t seem arrogant. In fact what you are doing now in examining yourself is very typical of the old catholic way of doing things. Perhaps your surgery was a gift in some ways for self-reflection.

Converts, especially more recently, are so knowledgeable, and what they haven’t had is the years of “living the faith.” That is the actual growing in grace and virtue…once you know the basics…that is what is most important. Maybe cradle catholics cannot point to verse and scripture numbers…but they do know scripture and most importantly they know how to live it. The head knowledge must be transferred to heart lest one become legalistic, judgmental…and yes, arrogant.

Sometimes it hurts when converts accuse old cradle catholics of not knowing the faith or evangelizing enough when they don’t realize how difficult it has been to stay a catholic during these last 40 years of dissension and craziness in the Church. There seems to be among converts a lack of the sense of thinking like a Catholic…and a grievous lack of humility.

These things don’t come overnight but take time to develop…the best way around this is to ask God for the grace to grow as a Catholic and start trying to show the fruits of the Holy Spirit in their own lives…patience, kindness, charity, humility etc.

You sound like you are already on the road to seeing this! The Holy Spirit is obviously working in your life. Be thankful and God bless.

 

[THutch04]

You know, actually I had noticed the problem of arrogance from converts who came from my background. So I’m sure it’s not uniqe to evangelicals. I think it’s a problem that a lot of us have, I know I sure do. I do think that most of my problem is that I’m getting a degree in theology, so I know that I have more information than most people would. But it’s always good to remember that we never learn “everything,” and there’s always something that we can learn. Obviously if I knew everything there would be no need for me to study it in college for four years; I’d be teaching the classes myself! Faith is definitely a journey, and there’s always more to learn!

 

[Cat]

“The head knowledge must be transferred to heart lest one become legalistic, judgmental…and yes, arrogant.”

byers, this is so good! I will cut and paste this in my Bible! Thanks!

 

[mark_a]

I enjoy hearing people talk about the Bible. That’s something that we were not permitted to read when I was growing up.

I know a devout Catholic who tells me when she was a young girl, that certain priests told her that reading the bible was not a necessity. They told her what to believe.

This sounds kind of shocking, but I don’t see any big gaps in her faith or morals.

Christ is the Head of the Church and He is the one we need to turn to at all times, not the pope or any other mortal man.

Horse feathers. This is so prideful and arrogant. “I figured it all out.” “No mortal man knows more than I know.” “Its just me and Jesus”. Horse feathers.

So you have it all figured out from reading your bible? Have you trusted no one to guide your study? What exceptions do you take to Catholic faith and morals teachings?

 

[Ridgerunner]

You know, I never realized it until you said it. All this time I couldn’t figure out how to argue the Bible. I thought I was just dense or something. Turns out I was taught to use it as a Bible, not a hammer.

God bless you for the smile you gave me today!

Thank you for that! You know, I saw your location as being in the Bible Belt (and you said “Lord help me” because of it). Not in any way to argue with you, but I also live in the Bible Belt, and to be perfectly frank with you, I’m glad of it. Oh sure, there are those who are rabidly anti-Catholic, and it’s a bit strange to be in a distinct minority, and sometimes I have envied those who live in areas where Catholics are in the majority or are at least a huge minority. And yes, the Klan was still active when I was a kid. But then, you look at a “Bible Belter” like Arkansas’ governor Huckabee and compare him to, say Rudy Giuliani, I, at least, have to admit that I agree with Huckabee, a Baptist preacher, a lot more than I do with Giuliani, a Catholic. (And I don’t hate Giuliani…he has his own cross to bear, as do we all.) Yes, there are a lot of hucksters among southern evangelicals, but there are also a lot of very serious believers. More and more, as I see converts in my parish, I tend to agree with Flannery O’Connor, who believed that the most fertile ground for Catholic evangelism is among the southern fundamentalists. She predicted how surprised many would be when they finally discovered how little different their beliefs are from those of the Catholic Church, and how very different theirs are from “classic” protestantism.

Bible Belters are usually just misled about the Catholic Church. They don’t know what the CC teaches. One of my favorite things to do, if I am in a discussion of religion with one of them is to hand him/her a copy of the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” to read and then later tell me what he or she disagrees with. There isn’t very much, and they have to admit it. No, they don’t accept the authority of the Church, and no, they don’t believe in the Eucharist. There isn’t much more. But I don’t know how many times I have heard fundamentalist evangelicals tell me how earnestly they wished they could believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Most of them really and truly (almost desperately) just want to be “closer to Jesus”, and, unlike a lot of Catholics, they’ll look you straight in the eye and say that with all the conviction in them. The Eucharist is actually the answer to their hearts’ greatest desire. Our job is to help them to know that.

I don’t know. Maybe I have lived here too long.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

Thank you for that! You know, I saw your location as being in the Bible Belt (and you said “Lord help me” because of it). Not in any way to argue with you, but I also live in the Bible Belt, and to be perfectly frank with you, I’m glad of it. Oh sure, there are those who are rabidly anti-Catholic, and it’s a bit strange to be in a distinct minority, and sometimes I have envied those who live in areas where Catholics are in the majority or are at least a huge minority. And yes, the Klan was still active when I was a kid. But then, you look at a “Bible Belter” like Arkansas’ governor Huckabee and compare him to, say Rudy Giuliani, I, at least, have to admit that I agree with Huckabee, a Baptist preacher, a lot more than I do with Giuliani, a Catholic. (And I don’t hate Giuliani…he has his own cross to bear, as do we all.) Yes, there are a lot of hucksters among southern evangelicals, but there are also a lot of very serious believers. More and more, as I see converts in my parish, I tend to agree with Flannery O’Connor, who believed that the most fertile ground for Catholic evangelism is among the southern fundamentalists. She predicted how surprised many would be when they finally discovered how little different their beliefs are from those of the Catholic Church, and how very different theirs are from “classic” protestantism.

Bible Belters are usually just misled about the Catholic Church. They don’t know what the CC teaches. One of my favorite things to do, if I am in a discussion of religion with one of them is to hand him/her a copy of the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” to read and then later tell me what he or she disagrees with. There isn’t very much, and they have to admit it. No, they don’t accept the authority of the Church, and no, they don’t believe in the Eucharist. There isn’t much more. But I don’t know how many times I have heard fundamentalist evangelicals tell me how earnestly they wished they could believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Most of them really and truly (almost desperately) just want to be “closer to Jesus”, and, unlike a lot of Catholics, they’ll look you straight in the eye and say that with all the conviction in them. The Eucharist is actually the answer to their hearts’ greatest desire. Our job is to help them to know that.

I don’t know. Maybe I have lived here too long.

I have had the privilege of living in both environments. I didn’t even know what a Protestant WAS until I was in my 30’s (shielded, I know). Now I am in a Parish that is absolutely packed to the rafters with them. Some converted, some on their way, but I wouldn’t trade a single one of them for all the ‘Kennedy Catholics’ in New England. They are the renewal of our faith. One of my closest friends at church is a converted Southern Baptist. I tease him all the time about the second reformation coming from the outside in. With more and more fired-up fundamentalists joining every day (1500 in the ATL Archdioceses this year alone) Catholicism in the south is growing faster than they can build churches.

Thank God for every last one of them. The church is alive and well and living in the south! I just wish we could convert some of the buildings along with them, we could use the extra room. 5 masses on Sunday and we’re still standing room only.

 

[jmcrae]

In the Evangelical Free Church that I was part of, I had NO IDEA who to ask about these practical questions. I kept going to the pastor, but he said just pick the dates myself.

I asked about the “Ladder of Authority” and was told that JESUS was in charge. (Tone of whining sarcasm in my voice is deliberate.)

Well, then I ran into trouble with the Music Committee, because THEY were in charge of the Children’s Choir.

And then I ran into major big trouble with the Children’s Pastor, because SHE was in charge of the Children.

The pastor said my musical was fine, and the kids loved it, but apparently some people in the church apparently thought it was “too Catholic.” So I guess ultimately, the PARENTS are in charge.

Well, then the trouble really started!

No one actually ever came to me and told me how to run my ministry week to week, but I received all kinds of “hints” from people that I didn’t even think were my authorities. When I ignored their “hints” (which were quite ignorant of children’s ministry methods, BTW), the woman Children’s Pastor trumped up a bunch of lies about how I refused to submit to authority and she hinted of improprieties (sexual? she wouldn’t say–all she would tell me is that parents had “come to her with grave concerns.”).

So I was in trouble for butting against the authority in the church?

WHICH AUTHORITY? And why didn’t someone tell me when I asked who was in charge?!!!

Sir or Madam, with all due respect–and it is very difficult for ME to have respect for your comment, but I’m trying hard–Jesus may be in charge of His Church, but on earth, He has established men as His servants to run the everyday life of His Church.

I ran into exactly the same kind of issues when I was running a Protestant Sunday School program.

Who picks the curriculum? I do - unless the associate minister doesn’t like it, or unless it costs money, in which case the financial officer has to approve it.

Who picks the teachers? I do - unless the parents don’t like them, or the ministers can’t work with them.

Who puts together the syllabus? I do - unless other committees need to shanghai the kids for a little free labor, in which case, rewrite the schedule to account for the missed lesson days when they were out planting flowers in the garden, cleaning out the church basement, or rehearsing songs for some presentation or other that got sprung on us at the last minute, because someone thought it would be “nice” if the Sunday School children would sing them a song to get them into the mood for something. (Because the kids have nothing better to do in Sunday School than rehearse music, or plant flowers, or clean out the church basement, or etc., right?)

And at the end of the year, these same people couldn’t figure out why the kids didn’t know their Bible stories.

I appreciate that the Catholic Church has an identifiable chain of command, and that I can tell who’s in charge of what before I make a decision, instead of after the fact, when everything has gone completely to pot.

 

[Bennie_P]

I have had the privilege of living in both environments. I didn’t even know what a Protestant WAS until I was in my 30’s (shielded, I know). Now I am in a Parish that is absolutely packed to the rafters with them. Some converted, some on their way, but I wouldn’t trade a single one of them for all the ‘Kennedy Catholics’ in New England. They are the renewal of our faith. One of my closest friends at church is a converted Southern Baptist.** I tease him all the time about the second reformation coming from the outside in. **With more and more fired-up fundamentalists joining every day (1500 in the ATL Archdioceses this year alone) Catholicism in the south is growing faster than they can build churches.

Thank God for every last one of them. The church is alive and well and living in the south! I just wish we could convert some of the buildings along with them, we could use the extra room. 5 masses on Sunday and we’re still standing room only.

The reformation isn’t over until everyone comes home, then we can close the door.

 

[Subrosa]

You mean that you were an evangelical and you never realized the the only real authority was Jesus Christ. One day everyone is going keel down to confess Jesus Christ as Lord, not the church or the pope

My dear Allschalmers, the Church IS the mystical Body of Christ. Haven’t you read your bible?

Matthew 16:18-19

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 18:17-18

If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Luke 10:16

Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.

1 Corinthians 12:12-31

As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. Now the body is not a single part, but many…(27) Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it.

Collosians 1:18

He is the head of the body, the church

Colossians 1:24

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,

Ephesians 2:19-20

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone

Subrosa

 

[Greg27]

A good thing for me about the Church is it’s very rich heritage of philosophy. Two great doctors of the church were Philosophers at heart, St Thomas and St Augustine. Thankfully the church puts a lot of emphasis on trying to convince people by reason and logical argument of its positions, which I feel is an excellent strength the church has and is somewhat lacking in Protestantism, which seems to emphasize more the emotional side of things. Yet clearly as well there is an emotional element in Catholic worship, particularly where the mystical and prayer are concerned, but Philosophical reasoning can usually work wonders (provided argument is free of logical fallacy and attacks against the person) where faith may be somewhat lacking.

 

[Randy_Carson]

So we’re probably more angry with ourselves for just sitting around all those years and not looking!

Stephen Ray and his wife were very angry when they became Catholics…

Angry that no Catholics had told them the truth earlier! :dancing:

 

[Randy_Carson]

The reformation isn’t over until everyone comes home, then we can close the door.

The Reformation is over. It is the Protesting that still lingers…

 

[Bennie_P]

The Reformation is over. It is the Protesting that still lingers…

I talking about the reforming of the protesters back to truth and the fullness of faith…