Evangelical discussion of sacraments??

[CompSciGuy]

Hey Evangelicals,

I would like to know what you think the purpose of the sacraments are, namely Baptism and Eucharist. The sacraments are really the biggest thing that drew me to the Church. The funny thing is, growing up evangelical, I didn’t really ever give much thought to what the sacraments were or why we did them. It wasn’t until two years ago, when I accidentally stumbled upon a Wikipedia page on Catholicism (a subject I knew virtually nothing about) that I was introduced to a whole new dimension of Christian spirituality, and had to ask myself, what is the purpose of the sacraments? Why would Jesus institute an arbitrary ritual where he takes loaves and wine, representing his body and blood, and ask his followers to do the same for centuries to come as a memorial service? What is the purpose of the bread and wine when you can simply sit and reflect on Christ’s passion and resurrection? And why did Paul say that anyone who eats and drinks the bread and wine without discerning the body and blood of Christ eats and drinks his own judgment? I never asked why when I was a child, I just followed along. Also how is baptism nothing more than a “public profession of faith?” Why not just publicly profess your faith without being dunked in water?

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Hey Evangelicals,

I would like to know what you think the purpose of the sacraments are, namely Baptism and Eucharist. The sacraments are really the biggest thing that drew me to the Church. The funny thing is, growing up evangelical, I didn’t really ever give much thought to what the sacraments were or why we did them. It wasn’t until two years ago, when I accidentally stumbled upon a Wikipedia page on Catholicism (a subject I knew virtually nothing about) that I was introduced to a whole new dimension of Christian spirituality, and had to ask myself, what is the purpose of the sacraments? Why would Jesus institute an arbitrary ritual where he takes loaves and wine, representing his body and blood, and ask his followers to do the same for centuries to come as a memorial service? What is the purpose of the bread and wine when you can simply sit and reflect on Christ’s passion and resurrection? And why did Paul say that anyone who eats and drinks the bread and wine without discerning the body and blood of Christ eats and drinks his own judgment? I never asked why when I was a child, I just followed along. Also how is baptism nothing more than a “public profession of faith?” Why not just publicly profess your faith without being dunked in water?

I asked myself those questions as well.

I think it is important to note that Evangelical Christians do not consider Holy Communion or Baptism to be sacraments, but ordinances. It may seem like a subtle one, but it is a significant difference. They are not means of grace - they are symbolic traditions instituted to bring Christians together.

In growing up Evangelical myself, these questions were never brought up. In fact, I largely assumed that all Christians believed the same thing on both sacraments/ordinances. It was a while before I learned that Catholics believed in a real presence.

I guess the most appropriate answer would be this: this is simply what was instituted in the Bible, and we do it because the Bible tells us so. Jesus was baptized, he commanded to baptize, and therefore we baptize. Jesus instituted Communion, he partook, and so do we, and we contemplate his sacrifice until he returns.

 

[beth40n2]

When I was “Saved” in a Four Square Church back in 1979, I was told that baptism was an “outward sign of our inward faith”. By being baptized we are a wittness to our faith in Chirst. Nothing was ever said about remission of sins or anything.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I guess the most appropriate answer would be this: this is simply what was instituted in the Bible, and we do it because the Bible tells us so. Jesus was baptized, he commanded to baptize, and therefore we baptize. Jesus instituted Communion, he partook, and so do we, and we contemplate his sacrifice until he returns.

So an evangelical just accepts it and doesn’t wonder why? It seems like a really strange thing to institute communion and baptism when you can contemplate a sacrifice and publicly profess your faith without bread, wine, or water.

Also it seems like the nature of what baptism and eucharist are aren’t really discussed much in the new testament; Paul kind of talks about them as if we are supposed to already know what they are. There are some clues, but like many other beliefs and practices of the Church (including the trinity) the new testament never really lays it down and explains them thoroughly.

 

[ltwin]

It’s usually discussed as commands of Jesus. Jesus said spread the gospel throughout the world, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; so we do that. Jesus says to partake of communion so we do it. We don’t try to explain it. We just obey Christ’s commands. Of course, there are other reasons it is important to do these things, but the primary reason according to the evangelical point of view is simple obedience.

The importance of the two ordinances can be expressed from an evangelical view point as such:

Ordinances are visible representations of invisible realities. We are water baptized to signify our entry into the kingdom of God through identification with Christ in His death and resurrection. We come to the Lord’s table to remember the present reality of the Cross, to make our lives accountable to God, and to look forward to Christ’s return. As we participate in the ordinances, we connect both to God and to His people. (Earl Creps)

However, at least one Pentecostal writer I have read indicates that there is more to water baptism than just a public commitment to Christ:

Every new person who is saved has the right to be baptized in water and needs to be baptized as soon as possible. Why jeopardize a new Christian’s spiritual security and development? He needs the strengthening benefits of baptism so he may “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 3:18). Let us communicate with passion the urgency of being baptized. Let us teach believers and lead them into all the means of grace provided for them by our wonderful Christ and Lord.

(M. Wayne Benson “The Urgency of Water Baptism”)

I find this interesting since the churches I have been involved with do not really place an urgency on water baptism. Also, the church I attend does not practice communion regularly. I know that a lot of churches do have quarterly or such observance of communion , but my church appears to randomly just decide when we take communion.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

So an evangelical just accepts it and doesn’t wonder why? It seems like a really strange thing to institute communion and baptism when you can contemplate a sacrifice and publicly profess your faith without bread, wine, or water.

Also it seems like the nature of what baptism and eucharist are aren’t really discussed much in the new testament; Paul kind of talks about them as if we are supposed to already know what they are. There are some clues, but like many other beliefs and practices of the Church (including the trinity) the new testament never really lays it down and explains them thoroughly.

I cannot speak for all Evangelicals. One of the reasons I stopped attending my former church, which is an Evangelical one, is precisely that I lamented the lack of reverence for Communion and for Baptism. Baptism was rarely ever done, it is a yearly scheduled event there, and Communion was technically every month, but it was often the case that Communion would be pushed back further because of the length of a particular sermon.

I’m not surprised the New Testament gives only a limited amount of clues on what we are to expect from these sacraments/ordinances. The New Testament isn’t an instruction manual on how to be a good Christian (but you already knew that). It is a series of letters and historical accounts that attest for the coming, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and that clarify issues that specific churches held around the time of the apostles. The faith already existed, and indeed the epistles were reminders to return to the purity of that faith. One of the reasons we know these epistles are accurate is because they clearly conform to an already established catholic and orthodox faith.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .we do it because the Bible tells us so. Jesus was baptized, he commanded to baptize, and therefore we baptize. Jesus instituted Communion, he partook, and so do we, and we contemplate his sacrifice until he returns.

Scripture reveals the Sacramental nature of Baptism & the Lord’s Supper. Passages that clearly reveal their Sacramental nature are usually omitted from the sermons & teachings in non-Sacramental Churches

**Consider Acts 2: 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

How can one claim Baptism is purely symbolic, when it is connected with the forgiveness of sins? Even John proclaimed a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.**

**Mark 1: 4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. **Also, see Luke 3: 3.

Would baptism in the name of the Holy Trinity impart less than the Baptism of John? Baptism is also the circumcision made without hands.

Colossians 2: 8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

---

John Chapter 6 clearly reveals the Flesh of Christ is true food, & His Blood is true drink; those who feed on His Flesh & drink His Blood, abide in Him & Christ in them; & the necessity to eat the Flesh of the Son of Man & drink His Blood in order to have life in us–in order to have eternal life & be raised on the last day.

**John Chapter 6: 35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.**

Matthew, Mark, and 1 Corinthians also point to the bread and wine being the body and Blood of Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:18 even says, "Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar?"

Matthew 26: 26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14: 22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, "Take; this is my body." 23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

1 Corinthians 10: 14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. 18 Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar?"

If, you celebrate the Lord’s Supper as only remembrance of Christ; how do you fulfill the requirement to eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink His Blood, in order to have life in you–in order to have eternal life and be raised on the last day?

 

[CompSciGuy]

I’m not surprised the New Testament gives only a limited amount of clues on what we are to expect from these sacraments/ordinances. The New Testament isn’t an instruction manual on how to be a good Christian (but you already knew that). It is a series of letters and historical accounts that attest for the coming, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and that clarify issues that specific churches held around the time of the apostles. The faith already existed, and indeed the epistles were reminders to return to the purity of that faith. One of the reasons we know these epistles are accurate is because they clearly conform to an already established catholic and orthodox faith.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. This is what I often try to communicate with my family when discussing sola scriptura.

 

[manualman]

One of the problems I have with protestant evangelicalism is the tendency towards decoupling of the spiritual and physical realms as if we are spirits trapped in a (possibly evil) physical manifestation. But even they sometimes recognize the human need to involve the senses. I think evangelicals DO think about the sacraments, but see them merely as nods God gives to us as physical beings so that we have some physical reminders of our faith and it isn’t just an ethereal thing.

Of course, they do fail to recognize the logical conclusion of that reasoning, which is to ask why God would make us a union of body and soul and not give us gifts which are manifested in both the physical and spiritual worlds… The catholic answer, of course, is that He DID.

 

[Anna_Scott]

One of the problems I have with protestant evangelicalism is the tendency towards decoupling of the spiritual and physical realms as if we are spirits trapped in a (possibly evil) physical manifestation. But even they sometimes recognize the human need to involve the senses. I think evangelicals DO think about the sacraments, but see them merely as nods God gives to us as physical beings so that we have some physical reminders of our faith and it isn’t just an ethereal thing.

Of course, they do fail to recognize the logical conclusion of that reasoning, which is to ask why God would make us a union of body and soul and not give us gifts which are manifested in both the physical and spiritual worlds… The catholic answer, of course, is that He DID.

manualman,

Interesting points. However, the word Sacrament is just not in the vocabulary of most Evangelicals.

I agree there is an issue with the spiritual and physical world. I think what Evangelicals sometimes miss is the fact that Christ has already conquered evil and death; and we are now living as Kingdom people–as we pray asking God’s will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. The idea of the Communion of the Saints is entirely missing from Evangelical beliefs.

Peace,
Anna

 

[SteveVH]

If, you celebrate the Lord’s Supper as only remembrance of Christ; how do you fulfill the requirement to eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink His Blood, in order to have life in you–in order to have eternal life and be raised on the last day?

Great post, Anna. I only wanted to mention something that is often overlooked by those Christians who do not recognize the true presence and treat it as only a time to remember.
“Remembrance”, in the both the Jewish and Catholic sense of the word, means “make present”. When we participate in the Eucharist, Christ’s sacrifice is made present to us as if we were standing under the cross with his blood dripping on us. We are not “remembering” a past event, but rather that event is made present to us now. That is why it is not a re-sacrifice of Christ. He died once, for all. I know you understand this but others may not.

God bless.

Steve

 

[Anna_Scott]

Great post, Anna. I only wanted to mention something that is often overlooked by those Christians who do not recognize the true presence and treat it as only a time to remember.
“Remembrance”, in the both the Jewish and Catholic sense of the word, means “make present”. When we participate in the Eucharist, Christ’s sacrifice is made present to us as if we were standing under the cross with his blood dripping on us. We are not “remembering” a past event, but rather that event is made present to us now. That is why it is not a re-sacrifice of Christ. He died once, for all. I know you understand this but others may not.

God bless.

Steve

SteveVH,

Well said!

I think your comment also speaks to the importance of Tradition. We can’t just scrap everything from the first 1500 years of Christian history.

Peace,
Anna

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

Well said!

I think your comment also speaks to the importance of Tradition. We can’t just scrap everything from the first 1500 years of Christian history.

Peace,
Anna

I couldn’t agree more. It is so important to understand what the words meant when they were written.

 

[Mandote27]