Evangelical Free Church of America

[Jon_S_1]

I have full sympathy with you when it comes to abuse of authority in the church–any church. Been there, done that. Got my T-shirt. School of hard knocks . . . That being said, I think we can all agree that every church–even those with episcopal governance and a belief in Sacred Tradition all have their fair share of abuse and bad governance.

I would hope, as I’d hope with cases that periodically emerge out of the Catholic Church, that things like this in the EFCA are more the exception than the rule. However, that is just my hope, I have no knowledge about any of it. Just pointing out that every system, no matter how carefully regulated, can break down at times.

I too, having experienced similar situations personally and repeatedly with friends, hope it is not as widespread as it appears.

Definitely abuses of authority can occur wherever there is authority. I think the fundamental difference between EFCA and Catholic in this regard is the EFCA is set up on such away that allows these abuses to occur relatively unchecked. As long as the pastor and elders of a church are on the same page, there is nothing to check that authority and no denomination to go to with concerns. They are the EV FREE Pope/Magesterium (usually fewer than 10 people in a single church).

In Catholicism, besides the apostolic basis for authority, there is also a wide range of checks and balances from the individual parish to the bishop to the Vatican to the pope himself if necessary.

 

[ltwin]

I too, having experienced similar situations personally and repeatedly with friends, hope it is not as widespread as it appears.

Definitely abuses of authority can occur wherever there is authority. I think the fundamental difference between EFCA and Catholic in this regard is the EFCA is set up on such away that allows these abuses to occur relatively unchecked. As long as the pastor and elders of a church are on the same page, there is nothing to check that authority and no denomination to go to with concerns. They are the EV FREE Pope/Magesterium (usually fewer than 10 people in a single church).

In Catholicism, besides the apostolic basis for authority, there is also a wide range of checks and balances from the individual parish to the bishop to the Vatican to the pope himself if necessary.

Well, every system has its benefits and its drawbacks. In churches like the EFree, the failure or abuse of authority can be contained within one church. While this limits the fall out, it can be spiritually horrific for those in the local church. In more centralized churches, like the Catholic Church, there is more oversight, but when such oversight fails or is abused the fall out is not limited to one congregation but could potentially affect thousands of people.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Well, every system has its benefits and its drawbacks. In churches like the EFree, the failure or abuse of authority can be contained within one church. While this limits the fall out, it can be spiritually horrific for those in the local church. In more centralized churches, like the Catholic Church, there is more oversight, but when such oversight fails or is abused the fall out is not limited to one congregation but could potentially affect thousands of people.

I agree, but am honestly curious if you can point to a specific example of that regarding the Catholic Church. (For my own knowledge).

 

[ltwin]

I agree, but am honestly curious if you can point to a specific example of that regarding the Catholic Church. (For my own knowledge).

Well, I could give you many historical examples (but I wont because I don’t think its fair to judge a contemporary organization for things that happened 500 years ago or whatever). The most well known cases concerning the Catholic Church is the clergy abuse scandals. Of course, sexual abuse is not unique to the Catholic Church. What I am noting is that this is a situation where a hierarchical church with all the canonical and spiritual authority at its disposal and many checks and balances within the system, failed to protect its sheep.

Further the settlements, as I understand it, has led to many parishes being closed as to pay for the millions of dollars in compensation. In a congregational system, where churches own their own property, this could not happen.

I’ve also read that there are some complaints/claims that there are “networks” of homosexual clergy within the Catholic Church. Such allegations have been made as high as the Vatican (though the extent of this has apparently been hyped) to local situations like the Archdiocese of Miami, where a group of Catholic laity compiled a dossier that claims to document the situation. (I’m not sure if its wise for me to even post any links on this or not, so I won’t).

Now, I’m not knocking the Catholic Church as much as I’m pointing out that the failure of larger systems with more authority produce equally large problems. By extension, this affects every part of the church. In less centralized systems, congregations can insulate themselves from problems in other congregations and higher levels of administration.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Well, I could give you many historical examples (but I wont because I don’t think its fair to judge a contemporary organization for things that happened 500 years ago or whatever). The most well known cases concerning the Catholic Church is the clergy abuse scandals. Of course, sexual abuse is not unique to the Catholic Church. What I am noting is that this is a situation where a hierarchical church with all the canonical and spiritual authority at its disposal and many checks and balances within the system, failed to protect its sheep.

Further the settlements, as I understand it, has led to many parishes being closed as to pay for the millions of dollars in compensation. In a congregational system, where churches own their own property, this could not happen.

I’ve also read that there are some complaints/claims that there are “networks” of homosexual clergy within the Catholic Church. Such allegations have been made as high as the Vatican (though the extent of this has apparently been hyped) to local situations like the Archdiocese of Miami, where a group of Catholic laity compiled a dossier that claims to document the situation. (I’m not sure if its wise for me to even post any links on this or not, so I won’t).

Now, I’m not knocking the Catholic Church as much as I’m pointing out that the failure of larger systems with more authority produce equally large problems. By extension, this affects every part of the church. In less centralized systems, congregations can insulate themselves from problems in other congregations and higher levels of administration.

I figured you would use those examples.

Although regarding sexual abuse, protections were not in place that should have been, and at the diocesan level there was issues of neglect, dereliction and maybe even corruption, I don’t think you can say it is a failure of top down hierarchy. If the top did nothing regarding it then yes it would be, but a lot has been done. Many autonomous churches have had the same issues. I gues if sex abuse was allowed to continue I would see a parallel, but relating to the issue brought up earlier if church discipline in the EFCA it is fundamentally different since there is no one stopping that abusive practice on any level. As such it destroys lives in that one congregation and spreads like a virus to other congregations both in the displeased person ousted and by the sharing of pastors/elders on what they did.

 

[ltwin]

I figured you would use those examples.

Although regarding sexual abuse, protections were not in place that should have been, and at the diocesan level there was issues of neglect, dereliction and maybe even corruption, I don’t think you can say it is a failure of top down hierarchy.

I think that is a perfect definition of a failure of top down authority.

If the top did nothing regarding it then yes it would be, but a lot has been done.

Yes, a lot was done after the damage had already been done. But are you honestly saying that the hierarchy had no idea what was going on until the media exploded the story? They could have taken proactive steps years before they had.

Many autonomous churches have had the same issues.

Yes, but they did not affect other autonomous churches. Which is my point.

I gues if sex abuse was allowed to continue I would see a parallel, but relating to the issue brought up earlier if church discipline in the EFCA it is fundamentally different since there is no one stopping that abusive practice on any level. As such it destroys lives in that one congregation and spreads like a virus to other congregations both in the displeased person ousted and by the sharing of pastors/elders on what they did.

That’s true, but how is that much different in the Catholic Church? It’s just on a smaller scale.

 

[steido01]

Honestly I would say there is absolutely no semblance of Lutheranism as I understand Lutheranism (somewhat limited).

As a Lutheran, I take this as a compliment.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I think that is a perfect definition of a failure of top down authority.

Yes, a lot was done after the damage had already been done. But are you honestly saying that the hierarchy had no idea what was going on until the media exploded the story? They could have taken proactive steps years before they had.

Yes, but they did not affect other autonomous churches. Which is my point.

That’s true, but how is that much different in the Catholic Church? It’s just on a smaller scale.

With our different worldviews, I am not sure we can properly address the question. I thought about writing, “more along the lines of doctrine, can you point to one doctrine that’s contrary to Christian teaching?”

Obviously that question won’t work!!

I agree that any organization made up of sinners will have problems with sin and how it’s dealt with.

As for the supposed “gay lobby” in the Curia, I am not aware of any teachings they’ve proclaimed, movements they’ve led, etc… It seems the hierarchy has done a decent job keeping them in check, and I have confidence Pope Francis will fully root out the Curia of any weeds.

Time moves slowly, slower than we like in such a large organization though.

Of course, I am one who embraces church authority and sees its unifying power.

 

[Jon_S_1]

As a Lutheran, I take this as a compliment.

 

[ltwin]

I agree that any organization made up of sinners will have problems with sin and how it’s dealt with.

. . . . .

Time moves slowly, slower than we like in such a large organization though.

Of course, I am one who embraces church authority and sees its unifying power.

I agree. This is the main point I was making, any system has its benefits and drawbacks and all systems can fail disastrously at times, especially when the wrong people get in positions of power. (I hope it was clear that I was not attacking the Catholic Church.)

 

[Jon_S_1]

(I hope it was clear that I was not attacking the Catholic Church.)

Yes it was clear! I appreciate that!

 

[Cat]

I too, having experienced similar situations personally and repeatedly with friends, hope it is not as widespread as it appears.

Definitely abuses of authority can occur wherever there is authority. I think the fundamental difference between EFCA and Catholic in this regard is the EFCA is set up on such away that allows these abuses to occur relatively unchecked. As long as the pastor and elders of a church are on the same page, there is nothing to check that authority and no denomination to go to with concerns. They are the EV FREE Pope/Magesterium (usually fewer than 10 people in a single church).

In Catholicism, besides the apostolic basis for authority, there is also a wide range of checks and balances from the individual parish to the bishop to the Vatican to the pope himself if necessary.

Exactly. No one in monitoring the autonomous churches to see if they are abusive or heretical or wasteful of offering monies.

After the ousting, my husband and I tried to contact a denominational board or council or consistory or convention to file a grievance, and that’s when we finally learned that the EFree churches are autonomous and that there IS no “higher authority.”

We had no recourse. There is an Protestant organization that will act as mediator between individuals and churches/organizations, but it costs a lot of money and it’s all lawyers. That wasn’t what we were interested in. What we wanted was an investigation of the conduct of the pastors, especially the female pastor, and an eventual restoration of our reputations in that church.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Exactly. No one in monitoring the autonomous churches to see if they are abusive or heretical or wasteful of offering monies.

After the ousting, my husband and I tried to contact a denominational board or council or consistory or convention to file a grievance, and that’s when we finally learned that the EFree churches are autonomous and that there IS no “higher authority.”

We had no recourse. There is an Protestant organization that will act as mediator between individuals and churches/organizations, but it costs a lot of money and it’s all lawyers. That wasn’t what we were interested in. What we wanted was an investigation of the conduct of the pastors, especially the female pastor, and an eventual restoration of our reputations in that church.

And yet your situation and mine, were blessed pains. We were both led home to Rome. Thanks be to God!

 

[Cat]

And yet your situation and mine, were blessed pains. We were both led home to Rome. Thanks be to God!

Absolutely. Praise Jesus! We keep wondering “Why us?” and “Why not all the other Evangelical Protestants?”

IMO, our story (and perhaps yours?) should be told over and over on public Catholic radio or TV. A lot of Catholics seem to think it’s the just easiest thing in the world for Protestants to just “come home” to the True Church. I’ve read posts from Catholics on CAF who accuse Evangelical Protestants (and other Protestants) of deliberately and with knowledge rejecting the Catholic Church and therefore, without doubt are going to hell.

These Catholics couldn’t be further from the truth. They are forgetting that not only do humans have brains, but we also have hearts.

We dearly LOVED our Evangelical Protestant churches and brothers and sisters in Christ, and never, ever would have left them without something drastic like the ousting happening.

We loved and trusted our pastors and teachers and because we trusted them, we were convinced that we were living true Christianity and worshiping God the way God wanted to be worshiped.

God knew all this, and in His wisdom and mercy, He took us through a horrific process that got us to the place where we had to make a break with our church and with Evangelical Protestantism. We had to stop trusting our pastors, teachers, and fellow Christians before we could accept the possibility that they were teaching us untruths and twisted truths.

I’m not sure how Catholics would be able to use our story, but at least it would help them to understand that Evangelical Protestants aren’t just being “anti-Catholic” when they show no interest whatsoever in the Catholic Church or the Eucharist. Our story would help Catholics to understand the doctrine (taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church) of “invincible ignorance.”

It would also help Catholics to realize that they need to keep smiling, being friendly, doing good works in the community and in their neighborhoods and workplaces, showing love (Catholics are good at this!), and telling Protestants about the Catholic Church in a loving, non-“sales” way. When my husband and I were ousted from Evangelical Protestantism, we were “ready” to believe in Catholicism because Catholics over the years were faithful to be good Christians! Yes, we came to accept the Catholic Church as Christ’s Church because of the historical facts and because of the clear indications in the Bible. But the facts were borne out by the actions of real-life Catholics!

Sorry to take the topic off. I think there’s something about EFree churches and other autonomous churches that is dangerous, and that’s why I’m dwelling on this. A counselor (yes, we did a little counselling to get through the crisis) told us that quite a few other people from that same EFree Church had been mistreated by that church. No details, but we realized that we weren’t alone, and that all those people who had “moved away” hadn’t really moved away.

 

[Maxirad]

Check out this thread.