Evangelical interpretation of Church Fathers on the Eucharist

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Hi, I’ve been considering the Catholic and Orthodox churches for a while now (on the road to Orthodoxy, but that’s for another thread), and I’ve been wondering about this page on “justforcatholics.org

justforcatholics.org/a181.htm

One of my reasons for moving away from Protestantism has been that it appeared the Church Fathers believed in Transubstantiation, this challenges that and I need some help from people more scholarly on these subjects than I.

Thanks!
 
Hi, I’ve been considering the Catholic and Orthodox churches for a while now (on the road to Orthodoxy, but that’s for another thread), and I’ve been wondering about this page on “justforcatholics.org

justforcatholics.org/a181.htm

One of my reasons for moving away from Protestantism has been that it appeared the Church Fathers believed in Transubstantiation, this challenges that and I need some help from people more scholarly on these subjects than I.

Thanks!
The response I’ve always gotten was that the Church Fathers were mere men, and that their opinion isn’t relevant. What is relevant is that the eventual reformers in reading the Bible found that the real presence wasn’t there and that symbolic communion is correct.

The biggest problem with Evangelicalism, in my opinion, is that it has no real roots. There is a massive historical gap for them (us? I suppose I still count?) between the Crucifixion and 1517. I’ve yet to hear a satisfying explanation for the history in between, and that’s what began my questioning of Evangelicalism.
 
Hi, I’ve been considering the Catholic and Orthodox churches for a while now (on the road to Orthodoxy, but that’s for another thread), and I’ve been wondering about this page on “justforcatholics.org

justforcatholics.org/a181.htm

One of my reasons for moving away from Protestantism has been that it appeared the Church Fathers believed in Transubstantiation, this challenges that and I need some help from people more scholarly on these subjects than I.

Thanks!
From a very cursory look at the site, I can at least tell you that Ratranmus was not an Early Church Father. Why are they using a monk’s words to argue against the ECF’s; is that all they have to make their claims?

Lots of Catholics have believed weird things throughout history. None of that changes what the Church teaches.

I’ll add that the phrase “in remembrance” is used in the Catholic Mass and we also believe that the Eucharist is a memorial. (this shows up in one of the quotes from Justin Martyr on the linked site…apparently to discount Transubstantiation). Read about the Jewish Paschal meal as a remembrance and research the word “anamnesis” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamnesis_%28Christianity%29

This is a special type of remembrance which makes the Last Supper present to us now, just as the Paschal meal made the Passover present for the ancient Hebrews. Memorial and Transubstantiation are not opposed concepts. Catholics believe BOTH.

In short, the evangelical arguments against the Eucharist as the Real Body and Blood of Christ are rather flimsy when viewed from a Catholic understanding of the sacrament.

Prayers for you and your discernment…
Cecilia
 
The biggest problem with Evangelicalism, in my opinion, is that it has no real roots. There is a massive historical gap for them (us? I suppose I still count?) between the Crucifixion and 1517. I’ve yet to hear a satisfying explanation for the history in between, and that’s what began my questioning of Evangelicalism.
I’ve not gotten a real response to this (or other questions) from Evangelicals–such as which text of the Bible is the authoritative one, and how they know it–but here’s my take on it.

One of the most popular positions is that the Church strayed from the truth, and then the Reformers restored the true faith, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Which, of course, begs the question as to why the Spirit did not do a better job of guiding the Church in those intervening centuries, or how they know they were (and are) guided by the Spirit in their actions.
 
That article is stretching out the writings of the Church Father’s and I think they are twisting the meanings to suit their thoughts. Read the Father’s for yourself all the way through. Also if Jesus meant what he was saying to be a symbol rather then actually his body and blood, why did he not call back those that left over him saying that? Why would’t he just explain to them that it wasn’t really his body and blood, just a symbol of rememberance that he wanted them to do?
 
“Therefore Justin Martyr’s view on the Eucharist is dissimilar from the Roman Catholic transubstantiation, and as such he is anathemized by the Roman Church.”

They admit here that Justin believed in a physical presence, so they don’t even deny that, they just say it isn’t transubstantiation. Even if Justin’s theology didn’t include transubstantiation he wouldn’t be anathemized as he existed before the Church had defined transubstantiation as a doctrine. And of course it is totally legitimate for doctrinal understanding to develop as more is revealed. They can’t help but throw in little comments like this can they?

This is the full Tertullian quote:

“Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is my body,’ that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body…He did not understand how ancient was this figure of the body of Christ, who said Himself by Jeremiah: ‘I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter, and I knew not that they devised a device against me, saying, Let us cast the tree upon His bread,’ which means, of course, the cross upon His body. And thus, casting light, as He always did, upon the ancient prophecies, He declared plainly enough what He meant by the bread, when He called the bread His own body. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new testament to be sealed ‘in His blood,’ affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body which is not a body of flesh. If any sort of body were presented to our view, which is not one of flesh, not being fleshly, it would not possess blood. Thus, from the evidence of the flesh, we get a proof of the body, and a proof of the flesh from the evidence of the blood.” Tertullian, Against Marcion, 40 (A.D. 212).

The point of this quote against Marcionism is that Christ is prefigured in the OT. The scripture given involves bread and Tertullian is interpreting that verse in light of the Last Supper. This proves that Jesus is connected to the OT scriptures. He is not necessarily denying the real presence here. The Fathers were able to look at scripture in four different ways, literal, allegorical, moral, and anagorical. But one didn’t negate the other, there are many levels to scripture and this quote is delving deep into an alternative meaning. That doesn’t mean it’s the ONLY meaning.

It isn’t necessary to disassemble every quote here anyway there are plenty more where those came from:

"Having learn these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ"Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, XXII:8 (c. A.D. 350)

“For He says Himself, My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood abideth in Me, and I in him. As to the verity of the flesh and blood there is no room left for doubt. For now both from the declaration of the Lord Himself and our own faith, it is verily flesh and verily blood. And these when eaten and drunk, bring it to pass that both we are in Christ and Christ in us. Is not this true? Yet they who affirm that Christ Jesus is not truly God are welcome to find it false. He therefore Himself is in us through the flesh and we in Him, whilst together with Him our own selves are in God.” Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, 8:14 (inter A.D. 356-359)."

“You will see the Levites bringing the loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers and invocations have not yet been made, it is mere bread and a mere cup. But when the great and wonderous prayers have been recited, then the bread becomes the body and the cup the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ…When the great prayers and holy supplications are sent up, the Word descends on the bread and the cup, and it becomes His body.” Athanasius, Sermon to the Newly Baptized, PG 26, 1325 (ante A.D. 373)"

scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html#tradition-I
 
The response I’ve always gotten was that the Church Fathers were mere men, and that their opinion isn’t relevant. What is relevant is that the eventual reformers in reading the Bible found that the real presence wasn’t there and that symbolic communion is correct.

The biggest problem with Evangelicalism, in my opinion, is that it has no real roots. There is a massive historical gap for them (us? I suppose I still count?) between the Crucifixion and 1517. I’ve yet to hear a satisfying explanation for the history in between, and that’s what began my questioning of Evangelicalism.
Yes, that’s been a problem for me as well.

The Church had 1500 years of apostolic tradition on their side and Luther just sauntered up and said it was all false. When you use the Bible alone, unlike everyone in the early church, it is easy to get a purely symbolic Eucharist. But when you see that the early church believed things like transubstantiation, they being taught by the apostles, the argument that you’re “Bringing the church back to its New Testament roots” or whatever becomes really thin.

Thanks everyone, this has been helpful. I will begin to read some of the ECF’s on the Catholic encyclopedia so I can see for myself what they believe.
 
Yes, that’s been a problem for me as well.

The Church had 1500 years of apostolic tradition on their side and Luther just sauntered up and said it was all false. When you use the Bible alone, unlike everyone in the early church, it is easy to get a purely symbolic Eucharist. But when you see that the early church believed things like transubstantiation, they being taught by the apostles, the argument that you’re “Bringing the church back to its New Testament roots” or whatever becomes really thin.

Thanks everyone, this has been helpful. I will begin to read some of the ECF’s on the Catholic encyclopedia so I can see for myself what they believe.
Another way this crystalizes is limit it to just 100 years, from the Resurection to about 130AD. If you concentrate on the writings of the ECFs within that period along with the writings of the New Testament, its pretty clear that the ECFs were Catholic.
Now, if the Church got off track, as many evangelicals say it did, it must have gone south as soon as Jesus ascended in Heaven.
Or…
 
Thanks everyone, this has been helpful. I will begin to read some of the ECF’s on the Catholic encyclopedia so I can see for myself what they believe.
Also, welcome to the forums!
 
Hi, I’ve been considering the Catholic and Orthodox churches for a while now (on the road to Orthodoxy, but that’s for another thread), and I’ve been wondering about this page on “justforcatholics.org

justforcatholics.org/a181.htm

One of my reasons for moving away from Protestantism has been that it appeared the Church Fathers believed in Transubstantiation, this challenges that and I need some help from people more scholarly on these subjects than I.

Thanks!
You don’t need to wonder about that site because it is never Catholic. If you want the correct interpretations of the Early Church Fathers teachings on the Eucharist get a Catechism of the Catholic Church.

These Early Church Fathers reveal a “Change” to the substance of bread and wine in the Eucharist to be the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. While the bread and wine remain those only to our senses. These early Church Fathers are teaching transubstantiation without ever using the term.

The subject to conclude which the author of your site “falsely” interprets is that a “change” has taken place in the bread and wine, while still remaining bread and wine, this interpretation reveals the definition of transubstantiation, without ever naming the change.

The Early Church Fathers confirm a change in the substance of bread and wine has taken place at the Words of Consecration. Your author falsely admits to this change in a spiritual manner to symbolize the body and blood of Jesus. Those who held to this type of symbolic teachings during these Early Church Father’s time period were defeated and labeled as heretics.

All the Early Church Fathers held to a real presence of Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity in His Eucharist. In fact many of these ECF’s your author mentions are addressing these same symbolic heretics in the beginning of their teachings in the real true presence, which your author does not mention.

If you want to know what Catholics believe learn from the Catholic Church not non-catholics.

Peace be with you and welcome on your journey
 
Yes, that’s been a problem for me as well.

The Church had 1500 years of apostolic tradition on their side and Luther just sauntered up and said it was all false. When you use the Bible alone, unlike everyone in the early church, it is easy to get a purely symbolic Eucharist. But when you see that the early church believed things like transubstantiation, they being taught by the apostles, the argument that you’re “Bringing the church back to its New Testament roots” or whatever becomes really thin.

Thanks everyone, this has been helpful. I will begin to read some of the ECF’s on the Catholic encyclopedia so I can see for myself what they believe.
Check out this websites Tracts, if you want to check out what the Church Fathers and the Church believed:

catholic.com/tracts/the-real-presence
catholic.com/tracts/christ-in-the-eucharist
 
That’s a good site it covers much on the subject of the Eucharist.

What I enjoyed most was " The permanence and adorableness of the Eucharist" that the Early church fathers displayed in adoration of the Eucharist revealing a true presence in the Eucharist.

This subject of **“adoration” of the Early Church fathers in the Eucharist **gets missed alot on these boards and should be mentioned more often.
 
=John_A;8721649]
The Church had 1500 years of apostolic tradition on their side and Luther just sauntered up and said it was all false.
A citation, please, where Luther said it was all false.
When you use the Bible alone, unlike everyone in the early church, it is easy to get a purely symbolic Eucharist.
Frankly, no it isn’t.
Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. - Luther
But when you see that the early church believed things like transubstantiation, they being taught by the apostles, the argument that you’re “Bringing the church back to its New Testament roots” or whatever becomes really thin.
Certainly, they believed in the Real Presence, and they can be interpreted as believing in Transubstantiation, but whether or not one confesses Transubstantiation, it can’t be said the evangelicals are bringing the “Church back to the New Testament”. Nor can it be said that what they teach has any roots in Luther (either in their view of the Supper or in their view of sola scriptura), since he, too, references the Fathers.
"Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.
Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.” - Luther
Jon
 
Yes, that’s been a problem for me as well.

The Church had 1500 years of apostolic tradition on their side and Luther just sauntered up and said it was all false. When you use the Bible alone, unlike everyone in the early church, it is easy to get a purely symbolic Eucharist. But when you see that the early church believed things like transubstantiation, they being taught by the apostles, the argument that you’re “Bringing the church back to its New Testament roots” or whatever becomes really thin.

Thanks everyone, this has been helpful. I will begin to read some of the ECF’s on the Catholic encyclopedia so I can see for myself what they believe.
John, Just wanted to say Hi. I converted in 2002. Came from a Plymouth Brethren/Baptist congregation (Can’t explain the cross, just some Baptist folks started attending the church and eventually became “Elders”)

Anyway, it took me four years of hard study before I converted, but I discovered the truth of the Eucharist in the first 3 months or so of my journey. It just would not go away:blush:

I was just very headstrong and had to understand every little detail, but I finally gave up and leaped in! Thank God! 👍
 
Thanks again everyone. Just a Clarification, I don’t go to these people for help with learning about the Catholic church… I know they aren’t Catholic but they do try to attack it so dealing with objections like that is important.

As for you, JonNC, I’m not trying to debate anything…

It’s called hyperbole. I know Luther didn’t just “say it was all false” he actually didn’t even intend to break with Rome originally, but just wanted to talk. Also, some of Lutheran theology is obviously based in Catholicism. But he did end up breaking with Rome, so that’s what I meant, just a general statement.

Also, I understand the passages now, and it’s pretty absurd to say Jesus was speaking symbolically. But it was easy for us to put it out of our minds, because somehow it made sense for him to be able to be speaking symbolically. After all “Do this in rememberance of Me” OBVIOUSLY means he has to be speaking of a memorial rather than some crazy Roman invention as Transubstatiation!!! Right?

Sorry for any misunderstanding and sorry for mis-speaking.
 
John, Just wanted to say Hi. I converted in 2002. Came from a Plymouth Brethren/Baptist congregation (Can’t explain the cross, just some Baptist folks started attending the church and eventually became “Elders”)

Anyway, it took me four years of hard study before I converted, but I discovered the truth of the Eucharist in the first 3 months or so of my journey. It just would not go away:blush:

I was just very headstrong and had to understand every little detail, but I finally gave up and leaped in! Thank God! 👍
Interesting… yes the Eucharist definitely is the center of it all. Everything pretty much follows when you realize it really is Jesus! The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics are the only people that teach it so that really narrows it down lol (well, some Anglican Catholics do too, but no thank you).

It will probably take me a while to decide between the two, but I just don’t think I can deny the call to the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
 
Interesting… yes the Eucharist definitely is the center of it all. Everything pretty much follows when you realize it really is Jesus! The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics are the only people that teach it so that really narrows it down lol (well, some Anglican Catholics do too, but no thank you).

It will probably take me a while to decide between the two, but I just don’t think I can deny the call to the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
Hi, JohnA…A blessed Christ’s Mass or Christmas to you…and welcome home…

These series of journals may help you further, if you have not come across it yet…

chnetwork.org/resources/coming-home-journals/

Someone already posted a link to ScriptureCatholic.com…you can use that as a starting point too.

👍
 
=John_A;8722888]
It’s called hyperbole. I know Luther didn’t just “say it was all false” he actually didn’t even intend to break with Rome originally, but just wanted to talk. Also, some of Lutheran theology is obviously based in Catholicism. But he did end up breaking with Rome, so that’s what I meant, just a general statement.
Oh, I recognize hyperbole, lol. After all, I am Lutheran, and Luther used it a lot. What, or rather who I don’t know is you (welcome to CAF, btw), though I look forward to getting to know you. So, I accept your use of hyperbole in this regard.
Also, I understand the passages now, and it’s pretty absurd to say Jesus was speaking symbolically. But it was easy for us to put it out of our minds, because somehow it made sense for him to be able to be speaking symbolically. After all “Do this in rememberance of Me” OBVIOUSLY means he has to be speaking of a memorial rather than some crazy Roman invention as Transubstatiation!!! Right?
Again, I’d say no! It isn’t obvious to me that His saying “in rememberance” means that He meant that His presence is “memorial”. We remember Him when we receive that which He instituted - His true body and Blood in the Supper.
Sorry for any misunderstanding and sorry for mis-speaking.
Oh, goodness. No need for an apology. Like I said, its easier to understand the nuances of one’s comments when we’ve had experience with that person.

Jon
 
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