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Trebor135
Guest
I hadn’t heard of the huge influx of Guatemalans into the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox communion. (Or if I did, I’d completely forgotten about it.) Do you have any links on this fascinating development?
Evangelical Population Explodes in Brazil as Catholic Church Shows Signs of Decline
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M
Monergistic
Guest
www.scooch.org/2013/05/syriac-orthodox-church-receives-as-many-as-800000-new-converts-in-central-america/
And this link also indicates a connection between Guatemala and Brazil for this one- whereas the other mass conversion had more of a link to Mexico.
www.icergua.org/latam/noticias/13/03.html#9
This one isn’t in English, but maybe your browser can translate?
theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2013/03/mor-yacoub-edward-consecrated-archbishop-of-guatemala-to-foster-800000-roman-catholic-converts-to-syriac-orthodox-church/
What I’m still trying to understand is the place these people were coming from before. I know they were part of a charismatic Catholic movement that had been without sacraments for 10-plus years, so they were excommunicated I suppose? For exactly what I wonder, I doubt it was simply an oversight. Also, it seems that the sum total of both groups were somehow affiliated, each with the same group and the same roots that was somewhat cut off from Catholicism (though they self-identified as Catholic). How closely I’m not sure, why some went Syriac and others Greek I do not know, and what else may lend itself to natural groupings and delineations I also do not know. It does seem like there’s more to find out about the Greek-affiliated converts, from what I’ve been able to see.
M
Monergistic
Guest
The way it’s gone down, it seems like large communities have aligned themselves with the church they feel will do a lot with medicine, basic needs, and school. I do like the part where three different major churches are invested in the poorest people in a country that’s rather poor, but I have to admit a little discomfort in seeing these mass conversions happen as if ecclesiastical fealty is being traded for a shot at a better life. It will be interesting to see how many native Mayan/Guatemalans will make it through the full training process to become priests, and it will also be interesting to see if a lot of the average people leave after experiencing just enough engagement to find out that their own beliefs do not match those of the church they just joined.
Ideally, each church serves everybody and each person can decide which one they want to belong to. Maybe they’re headed that way, maybe not.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Studying the history of the Catholic Church, it is she who ministered to the poor, the suffering and abandoned since pagan times in ancient Rome.
The monasteries that came about when Christianity was made legal and allowed to practice openly their faith, provided much support to neighboring populations, educating them in better agricultural methods, seed, irrigation. Schools and universities were developed for the common person, and the grading system and graduation degrees came from the Church – baccalaureate, master’s, Ph.D. Our members’ contribution to the arts and music is profound and can be accessed and witnessed today. The framework of modern law finds its foundation in Catholic thought, along with certain forms of scientific thought, and its use of the aprocryphal books, Wisdom, Sirach, Proverbs that lay down God following the natural law He created…that reason and faith are to be united.
The work of missionaries in education and health to the indigenous mission peoples goes back hundreds and hundreds of years.
Mexico, under the Spanish missionaries, became the center of education in the New World, its universities filled with native Indian peoples who had Ph.D’s, women and girls allowed the right to an education by Bishop Zumarraga, in the early 1500’s, hundreds of years ahead of Angle North America.
The problem with the indigenous people are lack of priests. The Church must depend on locally trained catechists who preside at communion services, weddings, funerals. There is the tradition in our faith to confess our sins to one another, and if there is no priest, they go to their own brethren. But this is probably not taught.
Peoples also do not understand the nature and mission of the Church, and think it has alot of money. The Catholic Church’s humanitarian funds, transparent and administrated outside the Curia, has more wealth than any country, and it is highly and properly regulated to serve people in need.
So people with little education and living in property with few Catholic missionaries, are very open to any help they can receive. And likewise, competing Protestant sects, depending on who they are and how they evangelize, can likewise promote their own spin on what they think the Catholic Church is.
The monasteries that came about when Christianity was made legal and allowed to practice openly their faith, provided much support to neighboring populations, educating them in better agricultural methods, seed, irrigation. Schools and universities were developed for the common person, and the grading system and graduation degrees came from the Church – baccalaureate, master’s, Ph.D. Our members’ contribution to the arts and music is profound and can be accessed and witnessed today. The framework of modern law finds its foundation in Catholic thought, along with certain forms of scientific thought, and its use of the aprocryphal books, Wisdom, Sirach, Proverbs that lay down God following the natural law He created…that reason and faith are to be united.
The work of missionaries in education and health to the indigenous mission peoples goes back hundreds and hundreds of years.
Mexico, under the Spanish missionaries, became the center of education in the New World, its universities filled with native Indian peoples who had Ph.D’s, women and girls allowed the right to an education by Bishop Zumarraga, in the early 1500’s, hundreds of years ahead of Angle North America.
The problem with the indigenous people are lack of priests. The Church must depend on locally trained catechists who preside at communion services, weddings, funerals. There is the tradition in our faith to confess our sins to one another, and if there is no priest, they go to their own brethren. But this is probably not taught.
Peoples also do not understand the nature and mission of the Church, and think it has alot of money. The Catholic Church’s humanitarian funds, transparent and administrated outside the Curia, has more wealth than any country, and it is highly and properly regulated to serve people in need.
So people with little education and living in property with few Catholic missionaries, are very open to any help they can receive. And likewise, competing Protestant sects, depending on who they are and how they evangelize, can likewise promote their own spin on what they think the Catholic Church is.
C
Country_Gal
Guest
Very wise observations by Pope Benedict.
From the article: “In response to this, he urged Catholics to become “better believers, more pious, affable and welcoming in our parishes and communities, so that no-one feels distant or excluded.” The Pope also offered some practical advice, calling for better catechesis – particularly to the young – carefully prepared homilies during Mass and the promotion of Catholic doctrine in schools and universities”
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Trebor135
Guest
In a similar vane, check out what some Protestants have been doing to the Ethiopian Orthodox. Not cool.
M
Monergistic
Guest
Ethiopia has never been one hundred percent Christian and/or Orthodox. Most of the country is, but that is concentrated in the north of the country. Further to the south, you have paganism and some tribal religions- the non-Christian minority that’s always been there. Evangelical Protestants have intentionally (albeit not always perfectly) gone to the non-Christians in the south of the country- the people that Orthodoxy never quite got to.
To their credit, the Ethiopian Orthodox have been impressively faithful to their church despite its pastoral shortcomings over the past few decades. And there have been some times when our people have been out of line. But on the whole, the stated goal and actual tendency has been to convert non-Christians in the most southern part of Ethiopia and not convert Christians. To some extent, it seems like some Ethiopians sometimes overreact a bit to the very presence of another kind of Christian in their country.
Catholics who have any familiarity with US history should have some idea of what it’s like to be on the business end of that.
And for the record- the Ethiopian Orthodox Church actually has suffered from some fairly serious and widespread (albeit not universal) pastoral issues for quite some time now. This is true- although the thing referenced in the link did a poor job of delivering that information. I say this in order to call attention to the fidelity of the Ethiopian Orthodox. It would be wrong for Evangelicals to try and go after them (and when they do, it is). I have to admit, though, I am sort of amazed that there have been hardly any Ethiopian Orthodox that are trying hard to get out. American Catholics constantly leave their church for much, much less, and that really goes for almost any church in almost any country. The loyalty of the faithful in Ethiopia really is most impressive- but again, the source you ultimately linked to put it in a way that was condescending and rude.
Aside from the disrespect, however- a lot of it was basically accurate. Whereas the idea that Evangelicals go there just to convert Christians is inaccurate, as is the idea that any substantial number of Ethiopian Orthodox have done so. People look at the numbers sometimes and assume that every Evangelical used to be Orthodox. That’s not true, nearly all of them are converts from paganism/animism and are concentrated chiefly south of the Rift Valley lakes and closer to Kenya.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Monergistic, it is understandable that there are converts who were prior animists, depending on the region you worked in.
The region I worked in was the Zambezi Valley. I ended up going into the barrios surrounding the mission grounds where we had thousands of Africans living along the river. I ended up with women abandoned by their husbands. They told me how the Church had so much money, etc. They told me we worshipped statues. I listened, and then they told me the Adventists had come through. Anyway, I continued to mostly listen to them, affirm their dignity as women, and in short time, they were going through rites to be baptized.
I think it is sad that most of these other evangelical groups tend to come from the USA that promote such thinking among the natives. Likewise it concerns me that they tend to promote anti-Catholicism coupled with shades of the prosperity gospel.
As we state here on CAF, our main goal as Catholics is be in the life of the Church which is Jesus Christ, and through Him and the Word and Sacraments to enter into the life of the Holy Trinity and be with Him in heaven some day. I am thankful our Church does not mention other Christians when we go to Mass or our parishes, or our evangelization programs. The focus is always on the Lord and life in the Church, and His great love for us.
The region I worked in was the Zambezi Valley. I ended up going into the barrios surrounding the mission grounds where we had thousands of Africans living along the river. I ended up with women abandoned by their husbands. They told me how the Church had so much money, etc. They told me we worshipped statues. I listened, and then they told me the Adventists had come through. Anyway, I continued to mostly listen to them, affirm their dignity as women, and in short time, they were going through rites to be baptized.
I think it is sad that most of these other evangelical groups tend to come from the USA that promote such thinking among the natives. Likewise it concerns me that they tend to promote anti-Catholicism coupled with shades of the prosperity gospel.
As we state here on CAF, our main goal as Catholics is be in the life of the Church which is Jesus Christ, and through Him and the Word and Sacraments to enter into the life of the Holy Trinity and be with Him in heaven some day. I am thankful our Church does not mention other Christians when we go to Mass or our parishes, or our evangelization programs. The focus is always on the Lord and life in the Church, and His great love for us.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I read about relations between Ethiopian Roman Catholics and the Orthodox Ethiopians who some have the tendency to put the former down.
It is also interesting to see the history of Ethiopian Christianity, how there were those who broke away from the Church and then came back.
The priest who left the Church over land issues sounds like some of the things I experienced overseas with Liberation Theology. A priest I worked with did tremendous work involving the use of the land in that country’s turmoil, but he also fell away from saying Mass, and his priesthood was restored later on. Property, rights…from this world…can be very challenging to one’s faith.
It is also interesting to see the history of Ethiopian Christianity, how there were those who broke away from the Church and then came back.
The priest who left the Church over land issues sounds like some of the things I experienced overseas with Liberation Theology. A priest I worked with did tremendous work involving the use of the land in that country’s turmoil, but he also fell away from saying Mass, and his priesthood was restored later on. Property, rights…from this world…can be very challenging to one’s faith.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Hi Trebor,
I read just one line the Protestants said about the Orthodox…the traditions and superstitions…and that was it for me.
There is an evangelical group here about 2 miles from my home that is providing outreach, helping young people get out of sex and drugs and alcohol, confusion, and spiritual poverty.
But they are also promoting the same, that we of the Universal Christian Church as I call it here, is tradition bound and that we have the demons of religion. My kids went to hear some great talks that really touched on issues they are facing. I was for that. But one was swept into it, got married, and when speaking to the mother in law, a four square gospel/Kenneth Copeland follower, she said she wanted to pray over me by phone.
Right away she wanted to cast out the demons of religion and rules, etc. I was so shocked. Then my other daughter was telling me things she said, as well as son in law to my kids behind my back with the same mantra. It got back.
I was with my son in law, who I love very much. I explained to him that ‘religion’ comes from the Latin word, to bind. And Christ said to Peter when establishing His Church that what is bound on earth is bound in heaven.
And only that of truth binds. So the family situation has settled down. And some day I pray that we can speak more openly about my faith, and not hear that based on those who know little about it or deliberately misrepresent it.
I was on CARM again for a little bit. I noticed the head guy of the site was siting early church fathers, and again trying to prove them invalidating our faith or something to that. I saw Justin the Martyr of whom I always like to share his writings.
So I went in and typed out St. Justin describing the Mass to the Roman emperor around 154 AD. I showed whoever was on there, that our form of worship goes all the way back to the Last Supper. We worship Christ for Christ, by Christ and in Christ.
The Holy Spirit works through the Word of God, be it a Protestant minister or a Catholic priest. I hear all the gospels said at Mass over the cycles. I hear Jesus when He says our Heavenly Father cares for us, tells us not to be afraid. And then the Words of Christ are taken in literally by the nourishment of His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity that makes me part of Him, and He wanting to live within me in my temple of the Holy Spirit.
So we as Catholics can say that we truly know that the Catholic Orthodox Church gives us the fullness of Christ in Word and Sacrament and that Christ is our focus, our way, and that he who perseveres to the end, picking up the Cross daily and following Christ, we are on the road to salvation. It will be Christ alone Who decides whether we truly join Him at the Last Resurrection or not. So I must always call on His mercy.
The Divine Mercy devotion prepares us to trust in Him in spite of ourselves, to trust in His love.
We must always work to promote Christ. We must always work to promote the Truth of and in Christ.
I read just one line the Protestants said about the Orthodox…the traditions and superstitions…and that was it for me.
There is an evangelical group here about 2 miles from my home that is providing outreach, helping young people get out of sex and drugs and alcohol, confusion, and spiritual poverty.
But they are also promoting the same, that we of the Universal Christian Church as I call it here, is tradition bound and that we have the demons of religion. My kids went to hear some great talks that really touched on issues they are facing. I was for that. But one was swept into it, got married, and when speaking to the mother in law, a four square gospel/Kenneth Copeland follower, she said she wanted to pray over me by phone.
Right away she wanted to cast out the demons of religion and rules, etc. I was so shocked. Then my other daughter was telling me things she said, as well as son in law to my kids behind my back with the same mantra. It got back.
I was with my son in law, who I love very much. I explained to him that ‘religion’ comes from the Latin word, to bind. And Christ said to Peter when establishing His Church that what is bound on earth is bound in heaven.
And only that of truth binds. So the family situation has settled down. And some day I pray that we can speak more openly about my faith, and not hear that based on those who know little about it or deliberately misrepresent it.
I was on CARM again for a little bit. I noticed the head guy of the site was siting early church fathers, and again trying to prove them invalidating our faith or something to that. I saw Justin the Martyr of whom I always like to share his writings.
So I went in and typed out St. Justin describing the Mass to the Roman emperor around 154 AD. I showed whoever was on there, that our form of worship goes all the way back to the Last Supper. We worship Christ for Christ, by Christ and in Christ.
The Holy Spirit works through the Word of God, be it a Protestant minister or a Catholic priest. I hear all the gospels said at Mass over the cycles. I hear Jesus when He says our Heavenly Father cares for us, tells us not to be afraid. And then the Words of Christ are taken in literally by the nourishment of His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity that makes me part of Him, and He wanting to live within me in my temple of the Holy Spirit.
So we as Catholics can say that we truly know that the Catholic Orthodox Church gives us the fullness of Christ in Word and Sacrament and that Christ is our focus, our way, and that he who perseveres to the end, picking up the Cross daily and following Christ, we are on the road to salvation. It will be Christ alone Who decides whether we truly join Him at the Last Resurrection or not. So I must always call on His mercy.
The Divine Mercy devotion prepares us to trust in Him in spite of ourselves, to trust in His love.
We must always work to promote Christ. We must always work to promote the Truth of and in Christ.
T
Trebor135
Guest
A good post–I appreciate that you reject the attitude exhibited by the article quoted in the first post of the linked thread. I’d like to ask, though, how you know with such certainty that most Protestants in Ethiopia are former animists.
I mean, in post #13 of the thread I linked to, we read:
[Protestants in Ethiopia] will come to church on feast days with their pamphlets and some screaming that this is idolatry bla bla they go on to blaspheme the saints and with their intense insane and in my view demonic hate for the Theotokos start to belittle her and blaspheme in front of the faithful, when the outraged faithful drug them out of the congregation, they claim you see we are martyrs you forced us to leave in such a way , its really ridiculous to put it mildly. the family issue is not an easy one either , they start to accuse the orthodox family member of idol worshiping , desecrate icons and books, instigate the beating of clergy and laity by their political zealots who are told that Orthodoxy is a religion of certain ethnicity, they come to social gathering of the orthodox faithful and start to give condescending speech on how people do not know the bible, how if they did they would burn all those idols they call the church, oh it is very difficult to describe the volatile nature of the situation. The orthodox although a majority have been incredibly tolerant with those who are anything but tolerant towards them ; however, they themselves are increasingly alienating themselves especially from the orthodox faithful whom they have targeted , mind you in Ethiopia there are millions of Muslims they are not their target however, their target is the Orthodox church and its destruction is their aim, be it them , a Godless government, or Muslims, either way they will pray for the destruction of Ethiopian church for the continuation of the tragic exodus of Ethiopians from their homeland due to innumerable unbearable suffering. Still the church and her faithful have lived in peace with their neighbors the best they could, but this time the arrogance of the protestants and their outrageous attempt of self victimization by going as far as coming to the liturgy and laughing , going to monasteries pretending to be monks and nuns and creating unmentionable chaos , impersonating the church clergy and cantors dressing like them , acting like them, but with a very different message, infiltrating the Sunday schools and forming groups that unknowingly will be steered towards the protestant theology ,and many vile things they have done just to appear like a persecuted church, as a result some youth have acted with anger to such desecrations however the church has strongly opposed their action and advised patience while pleading in humility to those who might be truly spiritual among the heretics to consider respecting certain boundaries for the sake of common peace and brotherhood however, this appeal continues to be ignored by them. The fact remains persecution of any kind is not condoned by the church and I have never heard anyone within the church advocating violence of any sort to deal with any heretical groups in Ethiopia in my lifetime and I am 34 years old.
This testimony isn’t coming from a respected newspaper, and I of course can’t verify its accuracy. But another poster in the linked thread vouched for it, and a CAF member has related that he has heard of Ethiopian Protestants dressing up as Orthodox clergy/monastics to mislead the faithful.
N
Nicea325
Guest
Okay? Since when has faith and salvation been based on statistics? Gaining ex-Catholics is nothing to brag about it. What makes you believe they are not prone to shop-around?
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