Evangelical Population Explodes in Brazil as Catholic Church Shows Signs of Decline

[Hesychios]

I think a major reason is that Central and South Americans simply aren’t as devout as some people claim that they are.

Even in the United States, Hispanics go through some basic Catholic ceremonies (like the quinceñera), but then have high illegitimacy rates, for instance.

I just think people overplay how devout they are.

I totally agree with this post.

I think the people of Brazil have been alienated from the church for a long, long time. This is not a Vat II kind of thing, it goes back many generations, perhaps from the Portuguese colonial days.

Further, we have a tendency to see other cultures through a filter (these counties are not just exactly like ours except for language).

Brazil is a particularly troubled nation with a very great disparity between the lifestyle of prosperity and the squalor of poverty, for one thing, and also abuse of the native tribes in the interior. The lack of priests makes the situation all the more serious, many people are feeling abandoned by a church that is not really able to reach them.

http://thecount.com/wp-content/uplo...he-boundary-between-wealth-and-poverty.-.jpeg
Walled off poverty
If the prosperous families (who can afford it) are not contributing their sons to the seminary there will be a shortage of priests because the poor are struggling just to survive. Even if an American priest were to be sent to Brazil, there is a strong possibility that he would fill a parish position and be too busy to get out on the streets. If he could get into the streets he would probably get in their faces during the day and go back to a cozy rectory to sleep in safety.

Lay evangelists and ministers from Protestant churches have no obligations to uphold an old moribund institution and plug in the administrative holes, they can go right into the most poverty stricken neighborhoods, stay there as house guests in their humble homes and work directly with the people 24/7 if they wish.

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[4Squarebaby]

I totally agree with this post.

If the prosperous families (who can afford it) are not contributing their sons to the seminary there will be a shortage of priests because the poor are struggling just to survive. Even if an American priest were to be sent to Brazil, there is a strong possibility that he would fill a parish position and be too busy to get out on the streets. If he could get into the streets he would probably get in their faces during the day and go back to a cozy rectory to sleep in safety.

Lay evangelists and ministers from Protestant churches have no obligations to uphold an old moribund institution and plug in the administrative holes, they can go right into the most poverty stricken neighborhoods, stay there as house guests in their humble homes and work directly with the people 24/7 if they wish.

I would drop the assumption that families provide their second son to the King and the Army and the third to the church. Families do not have the power in the world’s societies to do that anymore.

 

[Hesychios]

I would drop the assumption that families provide their second son to the King and the Army and the third to the church. Families do not have the power in the world’s societies to do that anymore.

Actually I agree with you.

 

[xylem411]

Yes, but it is Christ himself who left the Sacraments as an example to his church. He never spoke of himself “coming into somebody’s heart” as the example of salvation for the soul. Revelation 3:20 you COULD argue but opening one’s heart to Christ just may indeed mean availing of yourself to His BODY AND BLOOD which he specifically stated were indeed in the Eucharist. Peace.

Point still remains of theological differences in what or how one is born again, and just what assurance one has after meeting Christ.

 

[Christiano]

Not only evangelical and protestant churches are growing, but other religions too. I’ve seen reports in Brazilian newsmagazines and newspapers telling us about how Muslims are also growing in big cities here. A Brazilian news website published a testimony of a Muslim convert from Guarujá, a city in the coast of the state of São Paulo, who thinks life in Iran is wonderful. He moved there to study at Qom International University. He thinks this was his chance to raise his little daughter “in a suitable Islamic environment”. His mother became evangelical a few years ago but she, according to this man, “she understood we were migrating in God’s way and she ended up accepting it.”

The LDS church is also growing, although in a slow rate. We had four baptisms this month in our branch here in Assis. I myself am a fairly new convert. I was baptized on Dec. 5, 2009.

 

[Nicea325]

More…

christianpost.com/news/evangelical-population-explodes-in-brazil-as-catholic-church-shows-signs-of-decline-77470/

I also read in a recent Time magazine about many Hispanics leaving the CC for the evangelical churches. However, the article did state many of those who join are illegal immigrants and folks of low socio-economic status. In other words, those folks are drawn to those churches because they help them in many ways. It is no much because they disagree with Catholic doctrine or dogma, they are seeking fufillment in areas of their lives. The article also stated many of those churches theologically are not sound and I believe it.

What those sources also never tell you is many of those leaving the CC for other churches usually; do not last long at their “new” church and tend to shop around to meet personal needs.

 

[Monergistic]

There’s two main kinds of converts from Catholicism to Protestantism in Brazil. One kind is the poor people at the margins, who probably weren’t very engaged with Catholicism to begin with and whose conversion has more to do with relief/aid/relationships than it does with authority/doctrine/apologetics. The other kind of convert is attached to the urbanization and industrialization of a rapidly-changing country, and that’s the kind of convert whose long-term trajectory I’m most interested in.

The middle-class convert is likely more active and engaged than the average Brazilian Catholic to begin with, and they typically become even more active and engaged once they convert. This is the person who leaves the hometown they grew up in, moves to the city, moves up in the world, and knows what it feels like to be at the focal point of the change that’s happening in the country as a whole. With the change in residence comes the ability to more easily shrug off the remaining influence of family and community that might otherwise keep things static and maintain the nominally Catholic expectation, and that combined with a change in status of living affords this type of person an opportunity to exercise more freedom. It is fairly common for this type of urbanization to shake up the status quo, whatever that happens to be, and Brazilian urbanization is no exception. This growing middle class is the most likely subset of Brazilians to convert from Catholicism to Protestantism, and they also demonstrate the highest rates of participation and engagement.

Now, what I’m curious to know is this. I would expect these converts to take a good look at several different churches within the Protestant network, but I’m not so sure if I would expect very many of them to revert to Catholicism in short order. So I am interested in knowing just what is the rate of reversion among these types of converts. Among middle-class converts, there are so many if them in a given year; what percentage of them return to Catholicism within the first year, how many within two, five, ten or more, how big is the reversion trend initially, how much does it taper off, at what point does it flatten and plateau. Also, how does that look relative to other reversion trends in other countries. This is the kind of thing I’m wondering about.

I would guess that much, much less than half of them revert in the first year, and I would be very surprised if it even began to approach 50% over a much longer period of time. Relative to comparable reversion trends in other countries, that would qualify as a high percentage. Is it really that high? Lower numbers would be more in the neighborhood of 10-20% to start, and maybe it approaches 30 on a longer timescale. This is pure speculation- in fact, all that is is an example of relatively low numbers. High numbers start at 30-50 and wind up going higher than that, which is exactly what we see among Tiber swimmers in the US. So I am really curious to see which set of numbers is more closely resembled with the Brazilian converts and reverts.

One more note of interest- you familiar with the Christ the Redeemer statue? It overlooks Rio. That city, taken on its own, is now less than 50% Catholic and it continues to drop. It’s at 45 and change as of now. And this isn’t even the least Catholic region in the country. Almost, true, but not quite.

 

[Monergistic]

Oh my. That’s alarming.

Is nice, right? What’s happened in Latin America these past 30 years has been comparable to what happened in Europe with the Reformation. Except this time, it’s slightly more people who converted from Catholicism to Protestantism, and this time it was entirely on the basis of individual decisions to do so rather than have an elector or a king make the decision on behalf of everyone he rules.

Smaller countries like Guatemala and Honduras are really leading the way here percentage-wise, though. Guatemala is about 40% Protestant, and Honduras is in the mid-30s. We’ll see if Brazil can catch up to either of them, and hopefully Mexico is not too far behind.

 

[Trebor135]

Is nice, right? What’s happened in Latin America these past 30 years has been comparable to what happened in Europe with the Reformation. Except this time, it’s slightly more people who converted from Catholicism to Protestantism, and this time it was entirely on the basis of individual decisions to do so rather than have an elector or a king make the decision on behalf of everyone he rules.

Smaller countries like Guatemala and Honduras are really leading the way here percentage-wise, though. Guatemala is about 40% Protestant, and Honduras is in the mid-30s. We’ll see if Brazil can catch up to either of them, and hopefully Mexico is not too far behind.

Not “hopefully” at all. The last thing we need is more confusion and chaos in Christianity. It incenses me (pun intended) to see Latin Americans going Protestant. I’m of half a mind to learn Spanish and bring these folks to Orthodoxy!

 

[Monergistic]

Not “hopefully” at all. The last thing we need is more confusion and chaos in Christianity. It incenses me (pun intended) to see Latin Americans going Protestant. I’m of half a mind to learn Spanish and bring these folks to Orthodoxy!

I think you’d want to learn Portuguese if you go to Brazil, but yeah, if your priest thinks it’s a good idea to go to Central America to convert Catholics and people who had been Catholic until recently, go get a piece.

What central or south American country would you choose to go to? And how does that work with the EO- how are missionaries sent and supported?

 

[Adamski]

More…

christianpost.com/news/evangelical-population-explodes-in-brazil-as-catholic-church-shows-signs-of-decline-77470/

I have discussed faith with close to 100 evangelicals who grew up catholic I would say almost 100% came from broken homes with divorced parents

 

[Trebor135]

I think you’d want to learn Portuguese if you go to Brazil,

Right. I wasn’t really hoping to go there… I like smaller populations that don’t feel overwhelming. Plus, Spanish is easier than Portuguese.

but yeah, if your priest thinks it’s a good idea to go to Central America to convert Catholics and people who had been Catholic until recently, go get a piece.

I should definitely talk to him about it. I wouldn’t be going after Catholics though–Orthodox agreed not to do that back in 1993 at Balamand, Lebanon.

What central or south American country would you choose to go to?

Maybe Guatemala, since Protestantism has grown there so much and because Orthodoxy already has a foothold there.

And how does that work with the EO- how are missionaries sent and supported?

I’m interested in missionary work in general, so I’m going to have to look into this more. Just the other day I read in a post on OrthodoxChristianity.net that, out of the four hundred thousand Christian missionaries in the world, only one hundred are (Eastern) Orthodox. We have a lot of work to do!

Cheers.

 

[Monergistic]

Right. I wasn’t really hoping to go there… I like smaller populations that don’t feel overwhelming. Plus, Spanish is easier than Portuguese.

I should definitely talk to him about it. I wouldn’t be going after Catholics though–Orthodox agreed not to do that back in 1993 at Balamand, Lebanon.

Maybe Guatemala, since Protestantism has grown there so much and because Orthodoxy already has a foothold there.

I’m interested in missionary work in general, so I’m going to have to look into this more. Just the other day I read in a post on OrthodoxChristianity.net that, out of the four hundred thousand Christian missionaries in the world, only one hundred are (Eastern) Orthodox. We have a lot of work to do!

Cheers.

Guatemala is the one Central American country I’ve spent some time in. If you get to go at any point- well, it’s all mountains, so plan on taking a long time to go anywhere, there is no such thing as traveling as the crow flies and you can’t do anything safely at high speeds. But if you do make it up one of the mountains, it’s the most beautiful view you can imagine, especially looking down toward the lake in the middle.

I probably should have known there was a formal agreement like the one in Lebanon- I may have known at one time and forgotten. Thanks for mentioning that, I’ll try to remember it this time.

I had no idea that the number of EO missionaries was so low either, I figured something was happening and I just didn’t know about it. Thanks for that too.

I wonder how much Guatemalans (or Brazilians) are aware of the EOC and its history and so forth. That would be interesting to see in all of Central and South America, whether they’re Catholics or Protestants.

 

[Monergistic]

Oh, one more thing about Guatemala. Looks like the OCCG got a large infusion of new members, almost all indigenous Mayans. And according to a seminarian involved with that www.svots.edu/headlines/seminarian-jesse-brandow-gives-first-hand-account-explosion-orthodox-christianity-guatemal these native Mayans had roots in the CC in the 70s and 80s, then became estranged in the 90s for reasons I don’t know right now…went without sacraments, along comes a former RC priest named Fr. Andres who had also been a Guatemalan senator, he left the CC mostly because of a dispute over land reform for the rural poor…then I guess he brings this whole group of estranged cultural-Catholics-lacking-sacraments into full communion under the Patriarch of Constantinople and officially brought in by the Orthodox Metropolis of Mexico.

I’m only looking at EO sources on this right now, so it may be highly skewed. Fr. Andres is portrayed as a senator/priest who came into serious tension with the CC because he wanted to help the poor. I’m sure there’s another side to that story. Then he comes alongside separated Catholics who were looking for a new home and hadn’t had access to Catholic sacraments in a decade or more, so they gladly found their way to Orthodoxy and are continuing to grow as a group. I’m sure there’s more to this, as well, perhaps there are some Catholics who feel like these Mayans could have come back or they weren’t really all the way gone…and to me, when you start out with that many people who have Catholic roots, I would kind of expect them to be growing by way of Catholic conversions more than Protestant ones.

This may be ok in the end, and it may not be any kind of sore spot between the CC and EOC. This large initial wave of mass conversions, however, does not appear to have come at the expense of Protestantism. Protestants were sitting at 40% of the entire population a couple years back, Eastern Orthodoxy went from 1 or 2% to about 9 practically overnight, and it looks like the Protestants are pretty much untouched so far.

So…good for us? I guess. But I’m not sure if this is exactly what you had in mind.

 

[KathleenGee]

I was in Rio, April 1975, for about 2 weeks across the street from the Santa Theresa flavella.

The most shocking experience I had was not in Africa, but being at McDonalds in Rio one night. About 9 pm, I saw two caucasian red headed boys, one about 9 or 10 and the younger about 5 or so, grunting like animals and digging through the garbage behind the restaurant, eating what they could find.

I served a Jewish woman who survived Dachau. She said the Americans came in the day she was destined to be executed. I took her to this Jewish center here in town, and she would hoard the butter from the others at the table. She wasn’t traumatize by the concentration camp. I even asked her once, when she was carrying rocks in the quarry for the Nazis, if the scars were from them, and she laughed and said no. The social worker told me she was traumatized by hunger living in Hungary, getting the scraps from children’s lunches at school.

In Rio, you would go out to the city park and see all these couples laying out and smooching all over the place. I thought it the most beautiful city I had ever seen. We went to Mass at the cathedral with the bishop, and there were comments about the more radical, liberation theology priests attending who made their presence known to everyone, who focused on class struggle, the poor seeking a better life, and the rich living exclusively away from them. A lot of tourists came there, many places to see and visit, the art museums, the tiled great sidewalks and Brazilian business people a great contrast to the poor.

Brazil is such a place of contrasts of wealth and poverty, in a consistently beautiful paradise on earth.

The issues with Evangelicals is that they think we don’t have much of Jesus and are more about empty rituals with little life. I hope and pray that World Youth Day with the Holy Father will re-ignite many hearts to come to better understanding and focus of what it means to be Catholic.

So many times the world has our attention more than what Christ has of us.

To overcome the spirit of the world, a monsignor suggested to a Catholic in the process of returning to the Church and complaining how hard it is to be spiritual every day, that one should try to go to Mass. Another remedy to take the world out of our hearts is to pray to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. It can be hard when the time you have free, the church is closed. EWTN has Mass you can watch and participate in and receive Christ spiritually.

The other is to spend time reflecting on the Immaculate Heart of Mary and uniting our hearts with hers before the Lord.

It is sad to see other good Christians want to take people away from their Catholic roots, but many that do so never had solid roots in the first place. There is a movement likewise for renewed catechesis, and many Americans are getting their Masters now in Catholic theology in hopes of re-catechizing many people.

 

[Nicea325]

Is nice, right? What’s happened in Latin America these past 30 years has been comparable to what happened in Europe with the Reformation. Except this time, it’s slightly more people who converted from Catholicism to Protestantism, and this time it was entirely on the basis of individual decisions to do so rather than have an elector or a king make the decision on behalf of everyone he rules.

Smaller countries like Guatemala and Honduras are really leading the way here percentage-wise, though. Guatemala is about 40% Protestant, and Honduras is in the mid-30s. We’ll see if Brazil can catch up to either of them, and hopefully Mexico is not too far behind.

It is not nice, it is rather sad. Nothing to brag about because Protestants are seriously divided, regardless of what many Protestants sugar-coat as being not true. Then why so many denominations? Guatemala is 40% Protestant? Where are your sources supporting such a percentage?

 

[Trebor135]

Guatemala is 40% Protestant? Where are your sources supporting such a percentage?

The CIA World Factbook just says, under “Religions”:

Roman Catholic, Protestant, indigenous Mayan beliefs

I’m interested in seeing a source too (though I’ve heard the figure of “forty percent Protestant” before).

 

[4Squarebaby]

Google and the wiki references says about 40% of Guatemalans are Protestant.some sites give raw numbers of church membership. It may come from a survey or a census.

 

[Monergistic]

Then why so many denominations? Guatemala is 40% Protestant? Where are your sources supporting such a percentage?

Why so many denominations? Broadly speaking, lack of highly centralized authority, otherwise there’s a wide variety of reasons, some sectarian but mostly non-sectarian and/or clerical. Well, I like to call them clerical, but that’s not important right now. Much of it has to do with self-government, although self-government is almost never synonymous with a claim to a tiny monopoly on all truth, any more than every single denomination is synonymous with disagreement and sectarianism. Bottom line, there are good ways to multiply denominations and there are bad/sectarian ways. There are also silly ways that don’t mean anything, and it is all of those things put together. Prevalence of one over any other one varies from time to time and place to place.

My main source is going to be the US State Department. These numbers are from '06, so bear in mind that a half-million semi-lapsed Catholics joined Eastern Orthodoxy since then, along with approximately 800,000 more (nearly all impoverished Mayans in both groups) that came into Oriental Orthodoxy with Antioch. So Orthodoxy as a whole is now around 9% and Catholicism is no longer close to 60%.

Www.state.gov/j/dlr/rls/irf/2006/71462.htm

“Although there was no accurate census of religious affiliation, some sources estimated…”

Granted, that is vague, but it’s the best that the US State Department could do. So that’s what we’re working with.

 

[Patrocinor]

More…

christianpost.com/news/evangelical-population-explodes-in-brazil-as-catholic-church-shows-signs-of-decline-77470/

I’m not too surprised. But here is the thing. Many remove themselves from the Catholic Church, make a U turn later and come right on home again. No worries here. It reminds me a lot of the Prodical Son.