Evangelical "sheep-stealing" in Catholic countries. Why are we celebrating this?

[boomerang]

There was a recent thread on a “miraculous” conversion of tribal people to Christianity after watching Mel Gibson’s “Passion of the Christ”. This story was originally reported by “Catholic Online” (catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=68659).

Curious to see what kind of people were behind the “Good News”, I checked out their website, Christian Aid Mission. Wow. Their opinion of the Catholic Church is about rock-bottom. Why do Catholics celebrate this instead of calling it what it is - proselytizing, or “sheep-stealing”?

While it’s always good when anyone comes to Christ, it seems that it’s frequently at the Catholic Church’s expense. Catholics, and our Holy Mother Church, have got to do better regarding educating our members or we’ll have no flock left. Look at this organization’s opinion of the Catholic Church (straight from their website):

ARGENTINA: Thousands of towns across Argentina have no vital, evangelical Christian witness. Each town’s 1000 to 10,000 inhabitants are trapped in superstition, idolatry or an empty tradition of Roman Catholicism.

PHILIPPINES: Spanish priests introduced a paganized form of Catholicism which did not change the lives of individuals…In a country that is 92 percent Christian, the majority Catholics often mix native animistic beliefs into their practice and are unaware of salvation by faith.

CHILE: The Mapuche tribe is steeped in a culture of witchcraft and idol worship. Perhaps Catholicism has reached them. They simply substitute the name of a saint for the worship of the earth, sun, moon, thunder, volcano or sea. “I shared the gospel with a man who used to worship idols and Catholic saints. He received Jesus as His Savior and the Lord transformed his life and family."

PERU: Catholicism (mixed with ancient rituals and beliefs) was, and still is, an obstacle to the gospel.

MEXICO: Luis did not have access to Bibles as a Catholic in Mexico…Although not openly hostile toward Christians, this tribe maintains an unfavorable opinion of Christianity, stemming from the days when Catholic landowners dispossessed them of their ancestral lands.

SPAIN: Highly educated at 27 years old, he had taught chemistry and math at a Catholic school in Spain. He knew of God, but didn’t know Him…
Revival had begun in a spiritually dead country, where many were disillusioned with the Catholic Church and had become atheists…Holy Week in Jerez includes processions with idols that evangelicals eschew…

SOUTH AMERICA:
In some countries the gospel has made great progress, while in other places there are hindrances such as socialism, superstition, and local deities bearing the names of Roman Catholic saints.

ERITREA: Since 2002, the Eritrean government only recognizes four religions: Muslim, Coptic, Catholic, and Lutheran. These three Christian religions are generally in no danger, as long as they remain nominal, without showing any evidence of true spirituality.

KURDISTAN: Most of the displaced Christians are Catholics, Orthodox, Syriac Church, and Nestorian Assyrians. They don’t know the Bible. They have a basic church teaching that is mostly not biblical.

IRAQ: An Iraqi ministry leader, who recently visited us, grew up in Baghdad as a Chaldean Catholic who never heard the true gospel. Only after he moved to an adjacent country in the Middle East did he hear about Christ and make Him his Lord and Savior.

HAITI: Voodoo, brought from the homeland and mixed with Roman Catholicism, assures the place of darkness, fear, and hopelessness.

PARAGUAY: Most of these villages exist in the most remote areas of Paraguay and have never had the gospel come to them. Their religion mixes traditional animistic beliefs with Roman Catholicism, a religion of works and appeasing spirits or saints…When native missionaries share the gospel of grace and salvation with them, they’re overwhelmed to know the love of Christ.

Sorry about the rant. I just get P.O.'d when I think of the sacrifice of Catholic missionaries, hundreds of years ago, bearing such hardships to bring salvation to pagans, cannibals and who knows what. Now when the pickings are easy, the Evangelicals just swoop in and harvest the low-hanging fruit that was fed and watered by the blood of Catholic martyrs. And Catholics applaud.

 

[JurisPrudens]

Spanish priests introduced a paganized form of Catholicism which did not change the lives of individuals…

I wonder in what way else they were supposed to “change their lives” there. Exterminate them, like the Protestant “pilgrim-fathers” in the North America did? Bringing these people to Christ and His Church seems not enough for those Evangelicals.

The way the Evangelicals treat the developing countries population reminds me of communists and militant atheists. They eagerly want to destroy and break all the traditions the people have, so that you might find no difference between NYC and Manila, etc.

 

[powerofk]

There was a recent thread on a “miraculous” conversion of tribal people to Christianity after watching Mel Gibson’s “Passion of the Christ”. This story was originally reported by “Catholic Online” (catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=68659).

Curious to see what kind of people were behind the “Good News”, I checked out their website, Christian Aid Mission. Wow. Their opinion of the Catholic Church is about rock-bottom. Why do Catholics celebrate this instead of calling it what it is - proselytizing, or “sheep-stealing”?

While it’s always good when anyone comes to Christ, it seems that it’s frequently at the Catholic Church’s expense. Catholics, and our Holy Mother Church, have got to do better regarding educating our members or we’ll have no flock left. Look at this organization’s opinion of the Catholic Church (straight from their website):

Sorry about the rant. I just get P.O.'d when I think of the sacrifice of Catholic missionaries, hundreds of years ago, bearing such hardships to bring salvation to pagans, cannibals and who knows what. Now when the pickings are easy, the Evangelicals just swoop in and harvest the low-hanging fruit that was fed and watered by the blood of Catholic martyrs. And Catholics applaud.

It’s sad and a tragedy that this happens. Unfortunately, there are still many, many denominations out there (now, usually supposed “non-denominational” Evangelicals, it seems) that believe that Catholics aren’t Christians. In fact, it often seems like, in certain circles, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons are more likely to be considered Christians than Catholics. But in all honesty, this is nothing new. When the US “won” the Spanish-American war, our country acquired the territories of Puerto Rico, Cuba, and the Phillipines. We quickly gave Cuba their independence, but not Puerto Rico nor the Phillipines. When asked why we didn’t give the Phillipines their independence immediately - as they fought by our side to gain independence from Spain - President McKinley stated that one of the reasons was because the Filipinos needed to be “Christianized”. It didn’t matter that the vast majority of Filipinos were Catholic.

 

[mdgspencer]

I see that you didn’t realize that the tribal people involved were not Catholics, but pagans. They didn’t steal people from the Catholic Church.

 

[anon67074017]

These people are sharing the message of Christ too.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Well, I do think that “empty Catholicism” is a thing, as is syncretism. That is a problem in many Latin countries, as well as the Phillipines. However, it does seem that this organization actually believes that Catholicism ITSELF is an “obstacle to the Gospel” and salvation, that Catholics engage in “idol worship”, and, of course, the tired old canard that “Catholics don’t really know the bible”.

However, there’s also a definite ethnocentric attitude in these quotes, that I’ve seen in some American Catholics as well. I’ve even seen CAF posts that lamenting how “superstitious natives” are presenting Catholicism in a bad light.

I really haven’t seen too many Catholics actually applaud this kind of “missionary activity”, though. If it’s brought up, it’s usually in a critical context.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I see that you didn’t realize that the tribal people involved were not Catholics, but pagans. They didn’t steal people from the Catholic Church.

That might be the case for the tribe mentioned in the Catholic Online article. However, the website of the Christian Aid Mission contains numerous examples of converts from Catholicism. Although of course they claim these converts were only nominally Catholic, or combined Catholicism with syncretic practices, “knew of God, but didn’t know Him”, etc.

The idea seems to be that “the Catholic Church didn’t REALLY convert or save these people, these people didn’t REALLY know Jesus, so we had to come and save them”. They are PR savvy enough not to state outright that “we don’t consider Catholics to be Christian”. But the insinuations are pretty clear to me.

 

[7_Sorrows]

There was a recent thread on a “miraculous” conversion of tribal people to Christianity after watching Mel Gibson’s “Passion of the Christ”. This story was originally reported by “Catholic Online” (catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=68659).

Curious to see what kind of people were behind the “Good News”, I checked out their website, Christian Aid Mission. Wow. Their opinion of the Catholic Church is about rock-bottom. Why do Catholics celebrate this instead of calling it what it is - proselytizing, or “sheep-stealing”?

While it’s always good when anyone comes to Christ, it seems that it’s frequently at the Catholic Church’s expense. Catholics, and our Holy Mother Church, have got to do better regarding educating our members or we’ll have no flock left. Look at this organization’s opinion of the Catholic Church (straight from their website):

Sorry about the rant. I just get P.O.'d when I think of the sacrifice of Catholic missionaries, hundreds of years ago, bearing such hardships to bring salvation to pagans, cannibals and who knows what. Now when the pickings are easy, the Evangelicals just swoop in and harvest the low-hanging fruit that was fed and watered by the blood of Catholic martyrs. And Catholics applaud.

I agree!! I get tired of hearing how Catholics aren’t saved or don’t know the Bible or don’t know scripture. the Evangelicals swoop in, as you say, and make them ashamed to be Catholic as if somehow Catholicism is inadequate.

 

[multitude]

We shouldn’t be celebrating it. It’s complete BS.

 

[boomerang]

I wonder in what way else they were supposed to “change their lives” there. Exterminate them, like the Protestant “pilgrim-fathers” in the North America did? Bringing these people to Christ and His Church seems not enough for those Evangelicals.

I often hear generic Christians saying how poor and backward Catholic (i. e. Latin American) countries are compared to Protestant (i.e. United States and Canada) countries. I tell them I think it might have something to do with the fact that our “founding fathers” wiped out the Indians instead of trying to live with them, as they did in Catholic countries.

 

[boomerang]

I see that you didn’t realize that the tribal people involved were not Catholics, but pagans. They didn’t steal people from the Catholic Church.

No, I saw that they were (supposedly) pagan. If they managed to convert the pagans first, before Catholics got to them, my hat is off to them. It was after I browsed their entire site that I saw the focus of their evangelizing is predatory against Catholics.

 

[boomerang]

That might be the case for the tribe mentioned in the Catholic Online article. However, the website of the Christian Aid Mission contains numerous examples of converts from Catholicism. Although of course they claim these converts were only nominally Catholic, or combined Catholicism with syncretic practices, “knew of God, but didn’t know Him”, etc.

The idea seems to be that “the Catholic Church didn’t REALLY convert or save these people, these people didn’t REALLY know Jesus, so we had to come and save them”. They are PR savvy enough not to state outright that “we don’t consider Catholics to be Christian”. But the insinuations are pretty clear to me.

Amen to that!

 

[boomerang]

I agree!! I get tired of hearing how Catholics aren’t saved or don’t know the Bible or don’t know scripture. the Evangelicals swoop in, as you say, and make them ashamed to be Catholic as if somehow Catholicism is inadequate.

We shouldn’t be celebrating it. It’s complete BS.

Yeah! I can’t believe that a Catholic website like Catholic.org would actually run any article like that without first checking out these missionary’s statements against Catholics. They don’t need any publicity from Catholics. Of course, here I am talking about them.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

The main problem the Chileans and Eritreans have in these people’s eyes is that they are foreign. It is more positive to build on what they have got, if you want to share something worthwhile with them. Shorthand seemingly meant to imply contrast ends up conveying little.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I often hear generic Christians saying how poor and backward Catholic (i. e. Latin American) countries are compared to Protestant (i.e. United States and Canada) countries. I tell them I think it might have something to do with the fact that our “founding fathers” wiped out the Indians instead of trying to live with them, as they did in Catholic countries.

the Native Americans in America were not wiped out by the founding fathers.

 

[Peebo]

Well most of these so called Catholic countries have corrupt governments…corrupt public officials and corrupt legal system…and in some cases a corrupt Catholic Church…they mix Catholicism with pagan worship…most are probably Catholic in name only…so Evangelicals come along proclaiming the good news of Jesus Christ and how he can transform their lives…something they have probably never heard of…they see the joy in these people and the promise of a better life through Christianity… something they don’t see in Catholicism…so it’s easy to win converts…it’s no good blaming Evangelicals…if Catholicism was being practiced…and seen to be practiced in those countries then they would be strong in their faith…same thing is happening in Europe except maybe not as much political corruption and civil unrest…most Catholics there are in name only also…even here in the US a minority of Catholics are regular church goers…seems like Africa may be the saving grace for Catholicism worldwide in proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ…they’re even sending priests here to the US…we have one in our parish…his homilies are certainly Spirit filled and animated in their message and presentation…much like I guess what Evangelicals are preaching to Catholics in those Catholic countries.

 

[Tomyris]

Reading this makes me wonder if some here would prefer everyone in “Catholic countries” go to hell as unevangelized, nominal Catholics rather than go to heaven as Protestants?

Sounds like it.

 

[Tomyris]

I wonder in what way else they were supposed to “change their lives” there. Exterminate them, like the Protestant “pilgrim-fathers” in the North America did? Bringing these people to Christ and His Church seems not enough for those Evangelicals.

The way the Evangelicals treat the developing countries population reminds me of communists and militant atheists. They eagerly want to destroy and break all the traditions the people have, so that you might find no difference between NYC and Manila, etc.

Nasty.

 

[bitterhope]

Nasty.

I agree. I’m living proof that the Indians weren’t “wiped out” by the founding fathers or anyone else. So is my husband. People need to stop rewriting history like this. Catholics are looked at negatively in the same way you all are looking at the Protestants. According to many people, Catholics are responsible for as many if not more atrocities than the Protestants in the name of Jesus. We are all Christians. We should be working together and thankful when people learn about Jesus not playing this horrible name calling bits and pinning ugliness upon each other.

Something often forgotten in these debates is the fact that much of the US was uninhabited at the time white settlers came. Large areas were used solely for hunting grounds and had no settlements. Many Indian tribes practiced strict population control and therefore kept numbers down. Herbs were used to prevent pregnancy and to abort babies. We were pagans that fought amongst ourselves well before Europeans came here. Many tribes were blood thirsty and stole territory from weaker tribes making them slaves and sacrifices to our pagan gods. In Latin America many people still practice witchcraft and pagan religions while claiming to be good practicing Catholics. Often the evangelicals convert them to becoming Christians because quite honestly the ones converted were never catechized and never considered themselves Christian to begin with. This is the fault of our church. As Catholics we have failed them because we haven’t taught them what we truly believe. We abandoned them on their faith journey instead of walking with them and supporting them along the way. Placing blame upon people who are successful in leading others to Jesus is wrong. We should be finding joy in the fact that unreached populations are hearing the gospel and go about striving to help them learn the fullness of truth.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Reading this makes me wonder if some here would prefer everyone in “Catholic countries” go to hell as unevangelized, nominal Catholics rather than go to heaven as Protestants?

Sounds like it.

That comes perilously close to a “strawman” argument. I won’t speak for anyone else, but I have no dog in this fight since I’m not even Catholic. See, I think this Christian Aid Mission uses the “we’re only trying to save nominal Catholics” angle as just that, an angle.

However, the situations discussed in these “success stories” on the Christian Aid Mission website, strike me as not much different than the stuff Catholic-bashing is made of in the US, that Catholics are “unaware of salvation by faith” and “don’t really know Jesus”, don’t read the Bible, see saints as deities and engage in idol worship.

I’d have given the CAM the benefit of the doubt, except for this “testimonial” from Spain, in which they state as fact that Holy Week in Jerez includes “processions with idols”.

SPAIN: Highly educated at 27 years old, he had taught chemistry and math at a Catholic school in Spain. He knew of God, but didn’t know Him…
Revival had begun in a spiritually dead country, where many were disillusioned with the Catholic Church and had become atheists…Holy Week in Jerez includes processions with idols that evangelicals eschew…

Last I checked, Spain is not a hotbed of syncretism. This convert was not continuing in native pagan traditions but simply changing the pagan deity names to saint names. Indeed, this is the description of processions in Holy Week in Jerez from a more neutral source:

catavino.net/the-pointy-hat-brigade-holy-week-in-southern-spain/

The capirotes (pointy hats), although distinctive are only a part of the whole show. The most dramatic and impressive part of the parade is the Paso, a kind of float carried by men called costaleros. The processions are organised by brotherhoods, known as Hermandades or Confradias and each usually has two pasos, the first bearing an image of Christ and often allegorical scenes from the Passion, and the second an image of the Virgin Mary. These pasos can be enormous, often elaborately decorated and plated in silver so must have some serious tonnage. There is usually a kind of skirt around the bottom of the paso, so one can just see the feet of the costaleros poking out as they shuffle the paso along. If you are very lucky, you might see the paso pause for a moment and a lady hang out of a balcony above to sing a saeta.

Apparently, to the CAM folks, the Virgin Mary is an idol. They completely show their hand here, describing a centuries-old Catholic tradition in an European country as “processions with idols that evangelicals eschew”. Note how they themselves focus on the differences between Catholics and evangelicals.

No, they’re not just reaching out to the lost sheep that are the victims of poor catechesis and evangelical activity by the Church. They’re also looking for the sheep already in the fold. Or, as the OP states, sheep-stealing.