Evangelical "sheep-stealing" in Catholic countries. Why are we celebrating this?

[boomerang]

the Native Americans in America were not wiped out by the founding fathers.

In my opinion, they were essentially wiped out. The US has the lowest percentage of Native Americans in all of the Americas, north and south. Canada has the second lowest.

Percent of indigenous pure blood native / mestizo:
Mexico 65%
Peru 79%
Bolivia 59%
Guatemala 82%
Ecuador 78%
Chile 48%
Colombia 61%
Argentina 18%
Brazil 43%
Venezuela 54%
Honduras 90%
Nicaragua 74%
Panama 77%
Paraguay 95%
El Salvador 86%
Costa Rica 30%
Guyana 9%
Belize 44%
French Guiana 15%

United States 1%
Canada 4%

Sobering figures when you consider the United States was 100% native American at one time. The US and Canadian forefathers had no intention of mixing with the natives.

 

[boomerang]

Well most of these so called Catholic countries have corrupt governments…corrupt public officials and corrupt legal system…and in some cases a corrupt Catholic Church…they mix Catholicism with pagan worship…most are probably Catholic in name only…so Evangelicals come along proclaiming the good news of Jesus Christ and how he can transform their lives…something they have probably never heard of…they see the joy in these people and the promise of a better life through Christianity… something they don’t see in Catholicism…so it’s easy to win converts…it’s no good blaming Evangelicals…if Catholicism was being practiced…and seen to be practiced in those countries then they would be strong in their faith…same thing is happening in Europe except maybe not as much political corruption and civil unrest…most Catholics there are in name only also…even here in the US a minority of Catholics are regular church goers…seems like Africa may be the saving grace for Catholicism worldwide in proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ…they’re even sending priests here to the US…we have one in our parish…his homilies are certainly Spirit filled and animated in their message and presentation…much like I guess what Evangelicals are preaching to Catholics in those Catholic countries.

I won’t argue with you on that. Like I said in my original post, we (the laity and the Church) need to do much better educating our people so they can not only fend off the wolves, but actually enjoy, love and understand our Church.

 

[boomerang]

Reading this makes me wonder if some here would prefer everyone in “Catholic countries” go to hell as unevangelized, nominal Catholics rather than go to heaven as Protestants?

Sounds like it.

No one wants that. But what is an “unevangelized, nominal Catholic” anyway? To some evangelicals, most Catholics fall into this category with their so-called “vain and repetitious prayer” and their “going through the motions” at Mass, “working your way to heaven” and “praying to idols who can’t hear you” etc, etc, etc. They think all Catholics are unevangelized, unsaved, unbiblical and un-Christian. In fact, you can easily read this on the comments on their website.

I realize that there are “Christmas and Easter Catholics” who need to understand what a treasure they have in their own Church. That is something that the Church hierarchy has not done a very good job with, and this is just as much a problem as these poaching evangelical groups bearing false witness about the Christian-ness of Catholicism.

 

[boomerang]

In Latin America many people still practice witchcraft and pagan religions while claiming to be good practicing Catholics. Often the evangelicals convert them to becoming Christians because quite honestly the ones converted were never catechized and never considered themselves Christian to begin with. This is the fault of our church. As Catholics we have failed them because we haven’t taught them what we truly believe. We abandoned them on their faith journey instead of walking with them and supporting them along the way. Placing blame upon people who are successful in leading others to Jesus is wrong. We should be finding joy in the fact that unreached populations are hearing the gospel and go about striving to help them learn the fullness of truth.

You are 100% right. Our Church really has failed these people, making them ripe to be lured away. I admire evangelicals who manage to reach the (truly) unreached, but targeting Catholics because of some misguided notion that they are “not Christian” or “worship idols” or other nonsense is just plain foolish and a waste of time. If they want to please Our Lord, they need to go after Muslims, Hindus and atheists.

 

[boomerang]

That comes perilously close to a “strawman” argument. I won’t speak for anyone else, but I have no dog in this fight since I’m not even Catholic. See, I think this Christian Aid Mission uses the “we’re only trying to save nominal Catholics” angle as just that, an angle.

However, the situations discussed in these “success stories” on the Christian Aid Mission website, strike me as not much different than the stuff Catholic-bashing is made of in the US, that Catholics are “unaware of salvation by faith” and “don’t really know Jesus”, don’t read the Bible, see saints as deities and engage in idol worship.

I’d have given the CAM the benefit of the doubt, except for this “testimonial” from Spain, in which they state as fact that Holy Week in Jerez includes “processions with idols”.

Last I checked, Spain is not a hotbed of syncretism. This convert was not continuing in native pagan traditions but simply changing the pagan deity names to saint names. Indeed, this is the description of processions in Holy Week in Jerez from a more neutral source:

catavino.net/the-pointy-hat-brigade-holy-week-in-southern-spain/

Apparently, to the CAM folks, the Virgin Mary is an idol. They completely show their hand here, describing a centuries-old Catholic tradition in an European country as “processions with idols that evangelicals eschew”. Note how they themselves focus on the differences between Catholics and evangelicals.

No, they’re not just reaching out to the lost sheep that are the victims of poor catechesis and evangelical activity by the Church. They’re also looking for the sheep already in the fold. Or, as the OP states, sheep-stealing.

Right-on. Nice post.

 

[Tomyris]

That comes perilously close to a “strawman” argument. I won’t speak for anyone else, but I have no dog in this fight since I’m not even Catholic. See, I think this Christian Aid Mission uses the “we’re only trying to save nominal Catholics” angle as just that, an angle.

However, the situations discussed in these “success stories” on the Christian Aid Mission website, strike me as not much different than the stuff Catholic-bashing is made of in the US, that Catholics are “unaware of salvation by faith” and “don’t really know Jesus”, don’t read the Bible, see saints as deities and engage in idol worship.

I’d have given the CAM the benefit of the doubt, except for this “testimonial” from Spain, in which they state as fact that Holy Week in Jerez includes “processions with idols”.

Last I checked, Spain is not a hotbed of syncretism. This convert was not continuing in native pagan traditions but simply changing the pagan deity names to saint names. Indeed, this is the description of processions in Holy Week in Jerez from a more neutral source:

catavino.net/the-pointy-hat-brigade-holy-week-in-southern-spain/

Apparently, to the CAM folks, the Virgin Mary is an idol. They completely show their hand here, describing a centuries-old Catholic tradition in an European country as “processions with idols that evangelicals eschew”. Note how they themselves focus on the differences between Catholics and evangelicals.

No, they’re not just reaching out to the lost sheep that are the victims of poor catechesis and evangelical activity by the Church. They’re also looking for the sheep already in the fold. Or, as the OP states, sheep-stealing.

Is this thread about evangelical sheep-stealing in general from Catholic countries or just a way to bash CAM? I thought it was the former.

 

[bitterhope]

In my opinion, they were essentially wiped out. The US has the lowest percentage of Native Americans in all of the Americas, north and south. Canada has the second lowest.

Percent of indigenous pure blood native / mestizo:
Mexico 65%
Peru 79%
Bolivia 59%
Guatemala 82%
Ecuador 78%
Chile 48%
Colombia 61%
Argentina 18%
Brazil 43%
Venezuela 54%
Honduras 90%
Nicaragua 74%
Panama 77%
Paraguay 95%
El Salvador 86%
Costa Rica 30%
Guyana 9%
Belize 44%
French Guiana 15%

United States 1%
Canada 4%

Sobering figures when you consider the United States was 100% native American at one time. The US and Canadian forefathers had no intention of mixing with the natives.

Of course at one point the Americas were 100% Native American. Europe was 100% European, Asia 100% Asian, Africa 100% African. None of that is true anymore. The only thing those statistics show is that there are more “immigrants” than “natives” now. In all honesty though, everyone born in the US is a Native American whether or not they are Indian. There’s no way for them to go back to their ancestors country especially since most people are pretty well mixed now. My dad is 100% Lakota. My mom is 50% Cherokee/Algonquin and 50% Irish. How would I go back to my roots? My kids are half Mexican indigenous. Where do they go? The tribes didn’t all just peacefully coexist and the white people weren’t just slaughtering innocent victims left and right to take it all over. Kentucky had no tribes living there. It was unpopulated until Daniel Boone and used for hunting. Same with most of the Great Plains and Canada. Basically the coasts and the southwest had permanent settlements and the rest was basically empty until horses came into the picture and stil those tribes were basically nomadic. There was a lot of empty space to fill up and the immigrants did that much better than the natives that purposely kept populations low through herbal contraception and abortions. In Mexico the tribes were all basically taken over by the Aztecs. My husbands people are Mayan yet by the time the Spanish arrived in Mexico the Aztecs had taken them over and nearly wiped them out through human sacrifices and slavery. The Spanish didn’t do it. It was another indigenous culture. A larger percentage of a population really doesn’t say much about how that came about. Soon enough most of Europe will see a population shift due to the fact that Europeans aren’t having babies and immigrants are having many babies. The US is seeing a similar shift with the amount of babies immigrants are having versus the number of babies whites and blacks are having.

Yes there were wars between whites and Indians and many Indians died during them, but Indians killed many soldiers and innocent settlers as well. My ancestors did not want to peacefully coexist or integrate or share anything with the white men OR with other tribes. We weren’t innocent either. There is enough blame to go around. An even better idea is to quit worrying about the color or creed or nationality or whatever of everybody and instead work together on seeing us all as humans. Humans that have learned from the history of our fathers and strive for something better. instead of rewriting history we should learn from it and improve and let go of the guilt and blame game. It does no one any good.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Of course at one point the Americas were 100% Native American. Europe was 100% European, Asia 100% Asian, Africa 100% African. None of that is true anymore. The only thing those statistics show is that there are more “immigrants” than “natives” now. In all honesty though, everyone born in the US is a Native American whether or not they are Indian. There’s no way for them to go back to their ancestors country especially since most people are pretty well mixed now. My dad is 100% Lakota. My mom is 50% Cherokee/Algonquin and 50% Irish. How would I go back to my roots? My kids are half Mexican indigenous. Where do they go? The tribes didn’t all just peacefully coexist and the white people weren’t just slaughtering innocent victims left and right to take it all over. Kentucky had no tribes living there. It was unpopulated until Daniel Boone and used for hunting. Same with most of the Great Plains and Canada. Basically the coasts and the southwest had permanent settlements and the rest was basically empty until horses came into the picture and stil those tribes were basically nomadic. There was a lot of empty space to fill up and the immigrants did that much better than the natives that purposely kept populations low through herbal contraception and abortions. In Mexico the tribes were all basically taken over by the Aztecs. My husbands people are Mayan yet by the time the Spanish arrived in Mexico the Aztecs had taken them over and nearly wiped them out through human sacrifices and slavery. The Spanish didn’t do it. It was another indigenous culture. A larger percentage of a population really doesn’t say much about how that came about. Soon enough most of Europe will see a population shift due to the fact that Europeans aren’t having babies and immigrants are having many babies. The US is seeing a similar shift with the amount of babies immigrants are having versus the number of babies whites and blacks are having.

Yes there were wars between whites and Indians and many Indians died during them, but Indians killed many soldiers and innocent settlers as well. My ancestors did not want to peacefully coexist or integrate or share anything with the white men OR with other tribes. We weren’t innocent either. There is enough blame to go around. An even better idea is to quit worrying about the color or creed or nationality or whatever of everybody and instead work together on seeing us all as humans. Humans that have learned from the history of our fathers and strive for something better. instead of rewriting history we should learn from it and improve and let go of the guilt and blame game. It does no one any good.

thank you for sharing!

 

[Sarcelle]

In my opinion, they were essentially wiped out. The US has the lowest percentage of Native Americans in all of the Americas, north and south. Canada has the second lowest.

Percent of indigenous pure blood native / mestizo:
Mexico 65%
Peru 79%
Bolivia 59%
Guatemala 82%
Ecuador 78%
Chile 48%
Colombia 61%
Argentina 18%
Brazil 43%
Venezuela 54%
Honduras 90%
Nicaragua 74%
Panama 77%
Paraguay 95%
El Salvador 86%
Costa Rica 30%
Guyana 9%
Belize 44%
French Guiana 15%

United States 1%
Canada 4%

Sobering figures when you consider the United States was 100% native American at one time. The US and Canadian forefathers had no intention of mixing with the natives.

If you had included Uruguay, the US would probably not be at the top.

 

[boomerang]

If you had included Uruguay, the US would probably not be at the top.

Uruguay 2.4%.

 

[adf417]

Reading this makes me wonder if some here would prefer everyone in “Catholic countries” go to hell as unevangelized, nominal Catholics rather than go to heaven as Protestants?

Sounds like it.

Hi Tomyris, Im wondering why did you jump to this conclusion? When did anyone here ever say “unevzngelized, nominal Catholics would be going to hell”? This implication gets right to the root of any motivation as to why anyone would even spend resources, limited as they are these days, converting Catholics.

Peace!!!

 

[Tomyris]

Hi Tomyris, Im wondering why did you jump to this conclusion? When did anyone here ever say “unevzngelized, nominal Catholics would be going to hell”? This implication gets right to the root of any motivation as to why anyone would even spend resources, limited as they are these days, converting Catholics.

Peace!!!

I would expect them to be happy someone was bringing people to Christ. I presented the hyperbolic alternative because it sounded like that was the preference, unseen until presented. Instead people seem to resent evangelism in nominally Catholic areas - even where there has been no or little Catholic presence for a long, long time, if ever.

A friend of mine is a missionary in a remote Guatamalan village. They have a rather neglected church building that is open maybe once a year. The priest shows up maybe every five years and baptizes and then leaves. On Maundy Thursday they bring out their old pagan idols, as in there is something like a jaguar, only they call him Joseph, etc., and they do a procession in which they wail and cut themselves over the death of the god, and later head for the hills, where my friend has been told not to go to see what they do. They do the ancient Mayan rites. But on Easter the church is shut. In daily life they think and act in the old ways, and what I have described is about the extent of their Christian knowledge, until my friend came to their village.

 

[Tomyris]

I would expect them to be happy someone was bringing people to Christ. I presented the hyperbolic alternative because it sounded like that was the preference, unseen until presented. Instead people seem to resent evangelism in nominally Catholic areas - even where there has been no or little Catholic presence for a long, long time, if ever.

A friend of mine is a missionary in a remote Guatamalan village. They have a rather neglected church building that is open maybe once a year. The priest shows up maybe every five years and baptizes and then leaves. On Maundy Thursday they bring out their old pagan idols, as in there is something like a jaguar, only they call him Joseph, etc., and they do a procession in which they wail and cut themselves over the death of the god, and later head for the hills, where my friend has been told not to go to see what they do. They do the ancient Mayan rites. But on Easter the church is shut. In daily life they think and act in the old ways, and what I have described is about the extent of their Christian knowledge, until my friend came to their village.

OH, LOOK, I said to myself. This sub-forum has special rules. I was drawn here by the side-bar advertisement.

The argument I am putting forth does not belong on this forum. I apologize and withdraw respectfully from this thread.

 

[adf417]

OH, LOOK, I said to myself. This sub-forum has special rules. I was drawn here by the side-bar advertisement.

The argument I am putting forth does not belong on this forum. I apologize and withdraw respectfully from this thread.

Fair enough! Thanks for the post.

Peace!!!

 

[Le_Cracquere]

From what little I have seen, even halfway-adequately tended flocks are incredibly resistant to “sheep-stealing.” I have spent time in both camps, and Catholics who’ve undergone any catechesis and who’ve received any spiritual sustenance worthy of the names tend not to be easy game for non-Catholic evangelism. If certain Catholic communities end up suffering bouts of mass “sheep-stealing,” maybe it’s not the would-be poachers we should be getting mad at, so much as the alleged shepherds.

 

[adf417]

From what little I have seen, even halfway-adequately tended flocks are incredibly resistant to “sheep-stealing.” I have spent time in both camps, and Catholics who’ve undergone any catechesis and who’ve received any spiritual sustenance worthy of the names tend not to be easy game for non-Catholic evangelism. If certain Catholic communities end up suffering bouts of mass “sheep-stealing,” maybe it’s not the would-be poachers we should be getting mad at, so much as the alleged shepherds.

While I agree that there are some shepherds who could do much better at tending their flock, not all “shepherds” are inadiquate and some are quite good. But there are “sheep” leaving all flocks and this is where the shepherd analogy breaks down.

If a shepherd, that is of real sheep, were to find one of his sheep lost and wondering about in danger it would be proper for him to use force to bring him back to the fold. If a shepherd, of spiritual nature, were to do this the name of this thread would be about the “cultish acts” of the Catholic Church.

Peace!!!