Evangelical worship attracts Hispanic Catholics

[Lepanto]

I don’t get it. Many of the practices described in this article describes much of the trend towards evangelical protestant worship that I see in many of my local parishes (“Praise & Worship” music, clapping, jumping, non-descript church buildings, etc.). Weren’t many of these changes in many Catholic parishes done to prevent people from joining evangelical denominations? I guess it isn’t working.

newsobserver.com/lifestyles/religion/story/1382037.html

 

[PacoG]

As a Hispanic, I think that the thing that loses Hispanic Catholics is insincere worship. And insincerity is something that plagues the Ordinary Form in the way it has been practiced since the 1970s.

We have tried to beat the Protestant Evangelical by imitating them. They are better at it than we are. They will always beat us at gimmicks. That’s what their worship is. They have had 400 years to practice and perfect it.

Instead, the Catholic Church should try to be what it used to be good at: reverent, contemplative, and beautiful. Want to keep Hispanics, make the Mass what it used to be. Celebrate the Ordinary Form like it was meant to be and make the Extraordinary Form available in every parish.

 

[Ruben]

There is such a wide swath of problems leading to this sort of thing. One thing is that bad catechesis has been pandemic in recent years. Consequently few people understand that the mass is a sacrifice and not some sort of fountain of delight to the senses like some people mistakenly feel it should be. Simply put, too many people want Christ without the cross, they want Easter without Good Friday and they want a crown of glory without the crown of thorns of joining in Christ’s passion. If people really understood what the mass is (not what they think it represents) people would be willing to crawl on their hands and knees for miles to get to a mass. It is so much easier to simulate a false sense of fulfillment without fulfilling our obligations to the true fulfillment of Christ’s covenant which is to enter into his paschal mystery daily (through works, keeping the precepts, etc.) and most profoundly and fully in the mass. It’s sad, when will we learn that the cost of our salvation and entrance into true peace which is true entrance into Christ’s mystical body through the sacraments is not only Christ’s sacrifice on the cross but also our joining him on that cross? If we show our devotion to Christ in his paschal mystery he will manifest his devotion to actualizing our temporal but most especially our eternal happiness.

 

[VociMike]

“I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy”

• Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

 

[Matariel]

I don’t get it. The entertainment that some Evangelical Protestants call “worship” is one of the many reasons I looked to the Catholic Church in her beauty and reverence.

I don’t see any reason why people would prefer man-centered or pastor-centred entertainment “Praise and Worship” as opposed to truly reverent Catholic, Christ-centred worship.

Perhaps those people lost their sense of the sacred due to errant preists who ad libb the Mass and insert Protestant things into it.

 

[Navarre]

I think it’s because in far too many Catholic parishes that “worship” is the Mass (and not even the entire Mass in too many cases) once a week (hopefully) and that’s that. Worship covers a great deal more.

Some will immediately get chesty and proclaim “well, that should be enough!!” and while certainly true in one respect, it’s not in another. There are many aspects to worshiping God outside of the liturgy.

In some Protestant (and even Catholic parishes) people meet before liturgy to prepare for the after-Mass coffee social. Have you ever seen a group pray before going to work on a Sunday morning in the kitchen? They might then get together for a rosary, prayer group, a Bible-study (often over that day’s readings) or just stay in the parish hall to talk. If they don’t show up for a week or two, they’ll get a call from their pastor or at least an assistant asking how they are doing. That results in building-up the Body of Christ. Just imagine for instance how someone who spends time being concerned because some parishes refer to themselves as “faith communities” would respond to this reality.

Then they attend their liturgy which of course is the highpoint. They then head to the coffee social, perhaps Sunday school or adult Bible study. I know quite a few Protestants and some Catholics that are at their parishes from 9am to 2pm on Sundays. Five hours compared to 45 minutes will make a difference in many people’s lives. And yes, it is part of worship.

It also won’t be an entire week before they meet together as a “community.” Far more Protestants meet for mid-week Bible study than Catholics. Yes, we have the gift of the daily Mass but how many attend?

Some erroneously equate Protestant worship to necessarily consisting of cheesy preaching, electric guitars, bongos and altar calls. They would be startled to learn the truth in many cases.

 

[benedictgal]

The big problem is that we have also, unfortunately, watered things down to the point that even the music used for Mass does not accurately reflect the liturgical, doctrinal and theological teachings of the Church.

Furthermore, Evangelical services are geared towards emotions and feelings. Feelings are fleeting. I feel great right now, but, ask me 20 minutes later and I may have a different answer for you. Emotions are not reliable either. Yes, there is a deep and profound experience during the Mass, but, it is not about the emotions. It is not about us. It is about God.

 

[Dauphin]

The state of liturgy in the Church is catastrophic. Frankly, I can barely bring myself to attend Mass some Sundays (When I must go to the Pauline Mass).

I completely understand why people would seek to avoid such hollow, anemic liturgy, and resort to emotionalistic, self-indulgent nonsense. It’s tragically more fulfilling than most modern Catholic liturgy.

 

[otjm]

It would appear from most of the posts that most of the posters have little understanding of what has happened in the last 30 to 40 years in Cental and South America, and have no exposure to the Church or society there.

A phenominally large group of those south of the border are poorly educated in anything, let alone the faith. That in and of itself has made them ripe for picking by ministers and lay people who are willing to go to those countries and introduce their brand of Christianity.

To this stew is added the social/political ferment; to wit: Liberation Theology, which attempted to read the Gospels through the lense of Marxism. Instead of, as Paul says, “preaching Christ, and Him crucified”, the Gospels were distorted to attempt to rectify the gross disparity between the truly poor and the rich - there being not a whole lot of “middle class” because the poor were and are so terribly poor. And into that stew, with priests preaching a Gospel that is identified with the Marxist and/or Maoist, and or whatever other brand of Communism makes the rebels’ socks roll up and down, comes the Protestant - male and female - who are willing to get down in the barrio, down in the village, and preach the Gospel. They demand integrity; they teach that Moses received the 10 Commandments, not the 10 suggestions; they teach the male, macho and all, what it means to sacrifice for the spouse, and people who are hungry for the truth flock to them. And yes, granted that the Protestants don’t teach the whole truth, an uneducated peasant doesn’t know a whole lot of the difference. But they do know that what is in the Bible doesn’t make sense when filtered through the cadre and the “all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others” tripe of the political “reformers”.

As someone who did extensive research on the Church in central and South America put it, the Catholic “opted for the poor, and the poor opted for the Protestants”.

The massive outflux of Catholics to Protestant churches had little or nothing to do with the Ordinary Form. It had to do with catechesis.

 

[Dauphin]

The massive outflux of Catholics to Protestant churches had little or nothing to do with the Ordinary Form. It had to do with catechesis.

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi.

 

[benedictgal]

It would appear from most of the posts that most of the posters have little understanding of what has happened in the last 30 to 40 years in Cental and South America, and have no exposure to the Church or society there.

A phenominally large group of those south of the border are poorly educated in anything, let alone the faith. That in and of itself has made them ripe for picking by ministers and lay people who are willing to go to those countries and introduce their brand of Christianity.

To this stew is added the social/political ferment; to wit: Liberation Theology, which attempted to read the Gospels through the lense of Marxism. Instead of, as Paul says, “preaching Christ, and Him crucified”, the Gospels were distorted to attempt to rectify the gross disparity between the truly poor and the rich - there being not a whole lot of “middle class” because the poor were and are so terribly poor. And into that stew, with priests preaching a Gospel that is identified with the Marxist and/or Maoist, and or whatever other brand of Communism makes the rebels’ socks roll up and down, comes the Protestant - male and female - who are willing to get down in the barrio, down in the village, and preach the Gospel. They demand integrity; they teach that Moses received the 10 Commandments, not the 10 suggestions; they teach the male, macho and all, what it means to sacrifice for the spouse, and people who are hungry for the truth flock to them. And yes, granted that the Protestants don’t teach the whole truth, an uneducated peasant doesn’t know a whole lot of the difference. But they do know that what is in the Bible doesn’t make sense when filtered through the cadre and the “all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others” tripe of the political “reformers”.

As someone who did extensive research on the Church in central and South America put it, the Catholic “opted for the poor, and the poor opted for the Protestants”.

The massive outflux of Catholics to Protestant churches had little or nothing to do with the Ordinary Form. It had to do with catechesis.

However, Pope Benedict XVI, as Cardinal Ratzinger, soundly condemned Liberation Theology. Unfortunately, even some of the songs in the OCP aresenal are tinged with it as were two popular lectionaries, popularly known as the Orange book (Sundays) and the Blue book (weekdays). These two books were prohibited for use in the United States by the USCCB because the translations were tinged with Liberation Theology.

I think what you might not be understanding is that those of us from South Texas are seeing quite a few Mexican-American Catholics joining the Evangelicals and Pentecostals because of the emotionally-driven services that really do not have any susbstance. The big problem is that for many of these folks, Catechesis ends after they have received Confirmation. When the Protestant ecclesial communities do a door-to-door sweep of the neighborhoods (and even senior citizen residential facilities), they innocuously spread their message with simiple ideas and then go in for the kill.

Dauphin does have a strong point in regarding lex orandi, lex creendi. We pray as we believe.

 

[otjm]

However, Pope Benedict XVI, as Cardinal Ratzinger, soundly condemned Liberation Theology. Unfortunately, even some of the songs in the OCP aresenal are tinged with it as were two popular lectionaries, popularly known as the Orange book (Sundays) and the Blue book (weekdays). These two books were prohibited for use in the United States by the USCCB because the translations were tinged with Liberation Theology.

I think what you might not be understanding is that those of us from South Texas are seeing quite a few Mexican-American Catholics joining the Evangelicals and Pentecostals because of the emotionally-driven services that really do not have any susbstance. The big problem is that for many of these folks, Catechesis ends after they have received Confirmation. When the Protestant ecclesial communities do a door-to-door sweep of the neighborhoods (and even senior citizen residential facilities), they innocuously spread their message with simiple ideas and then go in for the kill.

Dauphin does have a strong point in regarding lex orandi, lex creendi. We pray as we believe.

Just in case you weren’t paying attention, so did JP 2. we can all agree that he was not the world’s best disciplinarian, but for all the talk about “smack downs” and glle that was exhibited when Ratzinger was elected, neither is he the disciplinarian that many thought was coming. Both condemned Liberation Theology; and it kept pace with the rebels who subverted a lot of naive priests and nuns.

as to the issue of what is going on in border towns and thoughout texas, you don’t have the only influx of Hispanics. And as to being catechized through Confirmation, you might want to look a little closer at your demographics. Most of the immigrants are from the poorest of the poor, and have such minimal catechesis that one has the issue of diffusing superstions and starting all over. We might be filling our kids heads with burtterflies and lambs (although there have been some legitimate strides in getting catechesis back to reality in the US); but the catechesis that all too many Hispanics have received is by osmosis. As in, almsot non-existent. That is where the Protestant missionaries have had so much success. And what is going on here - the mega church bit, is not the issue in Belize, or Nicaragua.It is habeen the nose-to-nose evangelical and fundamental preaching of the raw Gospel - including a very realistic understanding of sin, something all too many US Catholics seem to have forgotten if they ever learned - that has attracted so many from the Church.

 

[VociMike]

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi.

Bingo.

 

[benedictgal]

Just in case you weren’t paying attention, so did JP 2. we can all agree that he was not the world’s best disciplinarian, but for all the talk about “smack downs” and glle that was exhibited when Ratzinger was elected, neither is he the disciplinarian that many thought was coming. Both condemned Liberation Theology; and it kept pace with the rebels who subverted a lot of naive priests and nuns.

as to the issue of what is going on in border towns and thoughout texas, you don’t have the only influx of Hispanics. And as to being catechized through Confirmation, you might want to look a little closer at your demographics. Most of the immigrants are from the poorest of the poor, and have such minimal catechesis that one has the issue of diffusing superstions and starting all over. We might be filling our kids heads with burtterflies and lambs (although there have been some legitimate strides in getting catechesis back to reality in the US); but the catechesis that all too many Hispanics have received is by osmosis. As in, almsot non-existent. That is where the Protestant missionaries have had so much success. And what is going on here - the mega church bit, is not the issue in Belize, or Nicaragua.It is habeen the nose-to-nose evangelical and fundamental preaching of the raw Gospel - including a very realistic understanding of sin, something all too many US Catholics seem to have forgotten if they ever learned - that has attracted so many from the Church.

Actually, I know the demographics fairly well in my backyard. What the folks who have left the Church find appealing about these Evangelical services is that they are “alive” and “vibrant”, making them want to shout for joy. I have a coworker whose family left the Church after she received First Holy Communion. She was listening to one of my Vatican Radio broadcasts and she thought that the liturgy sounded sad because the music was somber. I told her that the Mass is not about us; it’s about God and experiencing the presence of the Divine in a profound way.

 

[Navarre]

…The massive outflux of Catholics to Protestant churches had little or nothing to do with the Ordinary Form. It had to do with catechesis.

It had even more to do with caring for people.

 

[mystified]

This leakage of course has much to do with weak or lacking catechesis. It also indicates that the non-Catholics are going door-to-door, speaking Spanish, and I’ve heard them tell out-and-out lies about the Catholic Church that were not rebutted because of the catechesis problem. This is happening in the cities on both sides of the border, and I know from firsthand experience that there are people representing the Mormons, Pentecostals, and Evangelicals going into the small country villages recruiting.

I saw a set of handbooks published by a Pentecostal group telling their missionaries how to approach poorly educated Catholics in México in order to convince them to leave the Faith. One admonition was to avoid mention of the Blessed Virgin, especially Our Lady of Guadalupe, because this would only reinforce resistance to conversion. Interesting.

The solution might well be to have some of our better trained Catholics commit to investing some time in door-to-door ministry, even doing a parish census during which non-practicing Catholics could be invited, even transported, to Mass and other parish services.

In this country, we need to find some way of overcoming the perception that “it’s all about money”. My Mexican godson does not send his children to catechism because his local parish charges the equivalent of a day of his pay for each child enrolled.

 

[Carjack1]

I am sorry, but where are the statistics coming from? Hispanics are still pre-dominantly Catholic:

ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5237.html
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9402E0DD1E3CF935A15750C0A962958260
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanics#Religious_diversity

They mention that the Protestant number is growing, but that is with any other ethnicity.

Evangelical worship attracts not only Hispanics, but other ethnicities. The Spanish Mass is lively from my understanding, so there has to be more. Maybe trying to fit in a country that is pre-dominantly Protestant and anti-hispanic is some cases(due to hispaniphobia due to illegal immigration)

 

[adowcday]

I’ve a devoted Catholic, but I have attended lots of Protestant services over the years, including pentecostal, charismatic, evangelical, and mainline services. They vary widely in their emotional tone and format, and the notion that they are empty, appealing only to the emotions is simply ignorant or malicious.

Most Protestant services are focused on the sermon, not on the music. Particularly where there is more than one church to pick from, if the preacher is good, people attend. If the preacher is poor, people find another church. My experience is that preaching in Protestant churches tends to be good to excellent. I often don’t agree with the biblical interpretation or theology, but the messages tend to be substantial, well delivered, and pertinent to people’s life situations. Most Catholic sermons I’ve heard (lots of churches, all over the country, from conservative to liberal) are pretty awful.

Lots of evangelical churches, and most mainline denominations, have an emotional tone that doesn’t differ much from most Catholic churches. They sing a few hymns, listen to some prepared music, have a short time of prayer led by a pastor, then it’s on to the sermon, which, as I said, is the real show. No jumping up and down, no shouting or waving of hands.

Even in contemporary pentecostal/charismatic/evangelical churches where there is a big emphasis on high-emotion worship, there is most often a big emphasis on the authentic God-directed, praise and thanksgiving. A mere emotional outpouring is not the goal – the desire is to establish a real, felt contact with God.

Those who favor a quiter, more contemplative approach to worship (which includes a majority of Protestants, by the way) will disdain and dismiss this approach, but I’ve shed my fair share of tears both at quiet, reverent, fully-orthodox Catholic services and at loud, jump and shout evangelical services. In both contexts, God was present and at work in people’s hearts. I’ve been in churches where people just wanted to be entertained and pastors just wanted to fill seats, but those are pretty rare. People want to draw near to God, and pastors and worship leaders want to help them do so. Style matters, but substance matters more.

 

[otjm]

I am sorry, but where are the statistics coming from? Hispanics are still pre-dominantly Catholic:

ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5237.html
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9402E0DD1E3CF935A15750C0A962958260
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanics#Religious_diversity

They mention that the Protestant number is growing, but that is with any other ethnicity.

Evangelical worship attracts not only Hispanics, but other ethnicities. The Spanish Mass is lively from my understanding, so there has to be more. Maybe trying to fit in a country that is pre-dominantly Protestant and anti-hispanic is some cases(due to hispaniphobia due to illegal immigration)

See, e.g., The Catholic Church at the end of an age - what is the Spirit saying? by Ralph P. Martin.

 

[otjm]

I’ve a devoted Catholic, but I have attended lots of Protestant services over the years, including pentecostal, charismatic, evangelical, and mainline services. They vary widely in their emotional tone and format, and the notion that they are empty, appealing only to the emotions is simply ignorant or malicious.

Most Protestant services are focused on the sermon, not on the music. Particularly where there is more than one church to pick from, if the preacher is good, people attend. If the preacher is poor, people find another church. My experience is that preaching in Protestant churches tends to be good to excellent. I often don’t agree with the biblical interpretation or theology, but the messages tend to be substantial, well delivered, and pertinent to people’s life situations. Most Catholic sermons I’ve heard (lots of churches, all over the country, from conservative to liberal) are pretty awful.

Lots of evangelical churches, and most mainline denominations, have an emotional tone that doesn’t differ much from most Catholic churches. They sing a few hymns, listen to some prepared music, have a short time of prayer led by a pastor, then it’s on to the sermon, which, as I said, is the real show. No jumping up and down, no shouting or waving of hands.

Even in contemporary pentecostal/charismatic/evangelical churches where there is a big emphasis on high-emotion worship, there is most often a big emphasis on the authentic God-directed, praise and thanksgiving. A mere emotional outpouring is not the goal – the desire is to establish a real, felt contact with God.

Those who favor a quiter, more contemplative approach to worship (which includes a majority of Protestants, by the way) will disdain and dismiss this approach, but I’ve shed my fair share of tears both at quiet, reverent, fully-orthodox Catholic services and at loud, jump and shout evangelical services. In both contexts, God was present and at work in people’s hearts. I’ve been in churches where people just wanted to be entertained and pastors just wanted to fill seats, but those are pretty rare. People want to draw near to God, and pastors and worship leaders want to help them do so. Style matters, but substance matters more.

and taken from another perspective, they are much more likely (assuming they are not one of the mainline Protestant denominations) to be specific and even blunt about morals and ethics. Not that it is all hell fire and damnation, but they are not squeemish about such issues as pre-marital sex and abortions, and the immorality of both. They don’t make the Gospels into a mealy-mouthed sociological analysis, nor a political statement (e.g. Liberation Theology).