Evangelicalism and American Politics

[CTBcin]

I ran across an interesting article from the Atlantic about the history of evangelical Christianity’s relationship with US politics and how it has evolved over the years, up to the present day political sphere. It’s long, but a fascinating read.

The Last Temptation

How evangelicals, once culturally confident, became an anxious minority seeking political protection from the least traditionally religious president in living memory.

getpocket.com

 

[BartholomewB]

The writer doesn’t seem to be what you might call President Trump’s greatest admirer.

 

[CTBcin]

he writer doesn’t seem to be what you might call President Trump’s greatest admirer.

Right. I saw that. But they were well balanced and didn’t attack him with blind hatred. It seemed like a reasoned criticism. The whole article is pretty interesting, especially when you get past the Trump stuff.

 

[ltwin]

As an evangelical, I find some of the behavior of the so-called and self-appointed evangelical leadership abhorrent and hypocritical. They give Trump passes they’d never give an Obama or a Clinton–all because of political convenience. It’s one thing to work with immoral politicians (I mean, is there any other kind? LOL) in order to protect religious freedom and evangelical institutions from government coercion, but it’s another thing to put any politician on a pedestal.

 

[mcq72]

Not sure that is the reason. I think most folks support or don’t support a president based on presidents agenda and executive actions , and that somewhat collectively yet sometimes on selective basis ( not necessarily across the board agreement/ support on policies).

Agree that on moral or immoral behavior we may be hypocritical. Yet most will agree to what is moral or not. The question then is do we make political hay out of it.

Things also don’t happen in a vacuum. There is a greater disparity and consequences perhaps today than at other times between what we as Americans consider righteous causes. I mean if Lincoln had a moral gaf would you denounce him politically as equally as if a pro slavery president had same moral gaf ? Would you impeach Lincoln who is positioning the country for an emancipation proclamation, even if it meant putting in a new president who would do the opposite, even strengthen slavery? Would slaves call you a hypocrite for turning a political blind eye towards Lincoln’s moral gaf?

 

[ltwin]

I think most folks

I’m not talking about average voters, but about evangelical leaders who have went out of their way to excuse or ignore or minimize Trump’s immoral behavior. Obviously, voters have to make choices between candidates that don’t always share their religious beliefs, but religious leaders should never wed themselves to any political leader but this is precisely what some have done. The church’s loyalty is to Christ, not any man.

 

[ltwin]

I mean if Lincoln had a moral gaf would you denounce him politically as equally as if a pro slavery president had same moral gaf ? Would you impeach Lincoln who is positioning the country for an emancipation proclamation, even if it meant putting in a new president who would do the opposite, even strengthen slavery? Would slaves call you a hypocrite for turning a political blind eye towards Lincoln’s moral gaf?

I would support Lincoln when he was right and not when he was wrong — just like I’d do for any elected officer. And the president would have to do something serious to warrant impeachment.

 

[commenter]

We have to make a distinction between a politician’s personal morality, which we have a very incomplete picture of, and his or her public morality.

Based on their public morality, Clinton and Obama encouraged the religion of secular humanism most of the time. Based on public morality, Trump encourages the position of Christianity (and Islam, and Traditional Judaism) most of the time.

One can argue that Trump’s personal morality before becoming president should have been better. But he never said adultery was acceptable, for instance. This differs wildly from politicians who set OTHER people up to have abortion on their soul.

Clergy who are not his pastor can only evaluate on the basis of his public morality. His pastor would be the one to privately assess his private morality. For Trump, himself, that’s the more important.

Bill Clinton’s adultery may have annoyed more people than his secularists government policies. But for us, the secularism will hurt far more people in different ways.

 

[Peeps]

One thing that might be worth remembering is that certain Evangelical Protestant leaders have met with and spent time with Donald Trump to “scope him out” before the election.

One of these leaders was Dr. James Dobson. This clinical psychologist has been in public ministry for at least four decades. My husband and i listened to his series of child-rearing “videos” before we were married, and we raised our daughters based on those videos–and are totally pleased with the results.

Dr. Dobson was also one of the first Evangelical Protestants to recognize abortion as evil and denounce it publicly at a time when many Evangelical Protestant leaders were still saying that “sometimes, abortion is the merciful thing to do.” Back in the 1980s, Dr. Dobson was a frequent guest speaker at many pro-life events, and I think it’s accurate to say that he is responsible (actually, the Holy Spirit is responsible, but He used Dr. Dobson to bring about God’s Will!) for bringing Evangelical Protestants alongside of Catholics in the fight against abortion in the U.S.

Dr. Dobson has never been involved in any personal scandal and has never been outed in any personal sin or transgression. He has served Christians and non-Christians alike all of his life, and I would trust him completely.

Dr. Dobson’s evaluation of Donald Trump is that he is a “baby Christian.”

I trust that analysis because I trust Dr. Dobson and believe him to be a wise and shrewd analyzer of people.

For Catholics who don’t understand that term “baby Christian,” it means that the man has made a profession of faith in Christ, but doesn’t have much knowledge of Christian teachings or experience in the day-to-day Christian life.

I think that’s a very accurate description of Pres. Trump.

However, Protestant Christians understand that a “baby Christian” is not to be criticized and treated with scorn and distrust, but rather, to be 'discipled" by wiser, more experienced and knowledgeable Christians, and loved as we would love anyone, because Christ loved us first.

I think that Pres. Trump is doing some very “Christian” things, and I think he’s often acting like a “baby Christian,” still mired down in a life in which Jesus Christ was not important to him. He needs our prayers, our encouragement, and our praises when he does something good.

Perhaps you believe I’m an utter fool because I place so much trust in Dr. Dobson. That’s OK. If you don’t know anything about Dr. Dobson, then i don’t blame you for being skeptical. All I know is that I trusted Dr. Dobson with my daughters, and they grew up to be amazing and dutiful women. I can trust him with my precious little girls, I think I can trust him with the President of the United States.

I\

 

[Tolle_Lege]

I have great respect for our Evangelical brethren. They’re not afraid to be vocal about defending Christian teachings on certain issues that most Catholics shy away from.

 

[adgloriam]

It’s one thing to work with immoral politicians (I mean, is there any other kind? LOL)

Realpolitik – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

I don’t like the hypocrisy and it really makes Christianity as a whole look bad. If the criticism was because of something holy that was at odds with the world then I would admire them for it, but it isn’t.

 

[otjm]

Certainly you may go out is search of a better president; I hope that you are amply supplied with oil for your lamp as it is going to be a long and tedious search.

As for hypocrisy, I do’n’t want to derail this thread by asking what your examples are; but I seriously doubt (and this after watching for the better part of 73 years) that you will ever be satisified with anyone in the position of POTUS. I supported Mike Huckabee, and he didn’t win. So that took care of that: but I got part of what I wanted - better appointments to the judiciary, including the Supreme court,. I can only imagine where we would be had Hillary won. Do presidents engage in hypocrisy? Perhaps. And until you have walked in their shoes…

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

That’s not the issue, it’s when people start praising and defending him more than needs be. He has done great things, but so have other president. I wouldn’t want to associate such a controversial figure with my movement.

 

[HollowMan]

It’s the Atlantic. It’s far Left trash. They’re going to hate anybody to the right of Castro.

 

[HollowMan]

I like Dobson. I think his ministry to families is excellent and I listened to his show for years. But, although I believe he’s very sincere and has a heart for God, I think he gets a lot of his theology wrong. Having listened to his show for twenty years, he appears to be Arminian in his thinking and believes that man is essentially good and will make the right choice if you place the right choice in front of him.

I happen to live down the street from Mar-a-Lago and the church he attends when he’s in town is about a mile away. So I know he attends church when he’s here on holidays.

But, for the life of me, I can’t see why Dobson calls him a Christian.

The Bible says there are four main criteria that define a Christian:

1. Their testimony
2. Their doctrine
3. Their fruit
4. Their sanctification.

Trump fails spectacularly on all four. And then, consider the fact that he’s thrown his lot in with Paula White, Kenneth Copeland, and the rest of the TBN crowd, all of whom have been soundly denounced within Christianity as heretics and charlatans, and it doesn’t look good for his claims to be a Christian.

Unless a good third party candidate steps up or Dan Crenshaw decides to run, I’ll probably end up voting for him in 2020. But call him a Christian? No.

 

[Peeps]

I like Dobson. I think his ministry to families is excellent and I listened to his show for years. But, although I believe he’s very sincere and has a heart for God, I think he gets a lot of his theology wrong. Having listened to his show for twenty years, he appears to be Arminian in his thinking and believes that man is essentially good and will make the right choice if you place the right choice in front of him.

No, this is definitely not Dr. James Dobson. He is an Evangelical Protestant. He believes that man is born sinful and without Christ, has no hope of heaven. “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23.” (BTW, that verse and many others is why Evangelical Protestants don’t accept the sinlessness of Mary, Mother of God.).

Dr. Dobson believes that a person becomes a Christian when they believe in Jesus and receive Him as Personal Lord and Savior. He does not denounce Catholicism because basically, Catholics believe the same, but Catholics receive Jesus in Holy Communion, and grow into their relationship with Him over their lifetime.

Like most Evangelicals Protestants (but not all), Dr. Dobson believes that baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. In other words, Evangelical Protestants choose to be baptized as a sign to the world that they are Christians. This is one of the main differences between Evangelical Protestantism and Catholicism. However, the Catholic Church accepts baptism of Evangelical Protestantism as valid.

You have listed four criteria that the Bible lists that define a Christian. Dr. Dobson and other Evangelical Protestants would agree with you that a MATURE Christian should manifest at least three of these signs demonstrating that Jesus is Savior and Lord in their life.

I don’t agree that “doctrine” is one of the signs, as Evangelical Protestants have hundreds of church denominations, and all teach a different doctrine. However, almost all of the Evangelical Protestant denominations agree on the Fundamentals of the Faith as spelled out in The Fundamentals released by the Presbyterian General Assembly in 1910:

1. Inerrancy of Scripture
2. Virgin Birth of Jesus
3. Substitutionary Atonement of Jesus Christ
4. Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ
5. Reality of the Miracles of Jesus Christ

So for Donald Trump to satisfy the criteria of correct Christian doctrine, , he would only have to profess a belief in these fundamentals, and Dr. Dobson would be OK with that.

However, the word that I highlighted above, “mature,” is the reason why I disagree with what you say about Dr. Dobson’s assessment of Pres. Trump’s Christian status. Evangelical Protestants believe that Christians “mature” as they grow in the faith, and that we cannot expect a “baby Christian” to have a strong testimony, bear lots of fruit, and exhibit a sanctified lifestyle. They have to grow into it as they learn more and get to know Jesus better and love Him more.

 

[HollowMan]

No, this is definitely not Dr. James Dobson. He is an Evangelical Protestant. He believes that man is born sinful and without Christ, has no hope of heaven.

Based on listening to his show for twenty years, I believe he’s very much an Arminian who believes man is basically good and will make the right choice if given the chance.

“

Dr. Dobson believes that a person becomes a Christian when they believe in Jesus and receive Him as Personal Lord and Savior.

No repentance?

He does not denounce Catholicism because basically, Catholics believe the same…

Um…no.

However, the Catholic Church accepts baptism of Evangelical Protestantism as valid.

I’ve gotten different answers from Catholics about this. I am baffled that the Catholic Church would accept a Christian baptism, as they mean two radically different things in our respective religions.

You have listed four criteria that the Bible lists that define a Christian. Dr. Dobson and other Evangelical Protestants would agree with you that a MATURE Christian should manifest at least three of these signs demonstrating that Jesus is Savior and Lord in their life.

The Bible and Reformed Christians would agree that a Christian must exhibit all four in order to be considered a Christian.

I don’t agree that “doctrine” is one of the signs, as Evangelical Protestants have hundreds of church denominations, and all teach a different doctrine.

Yes, this is a very common Catholic lie.

However, almost all of the Evangelical Protestant denominations agree on the Fundamentals of the Faith

But you just said we all disagree. Now we agree? Which is it?

So for Donald Trump to satisfy the criteria of correct Christian doctrine, , he would only have to profess a belief in these fundamentals, and Dr. Dobson would be OK with that.

Dr. Dobson is an excellent authority on matters of family and parenting. theology, not so much.

However, the word that I highlighted above, “mature,” is the reason why I disagree with what you say about Dr. Dobson’s assessment of Pres. Trump’s Christian status. Evangelical Protestants believe that Christians “mature” as they grow in the faith, and that we cannot expect a “baby Christian” to have a strong testimony

Nope. “Baby” or not, every Christian must have a valid salvation testimony. They may not be able to articulate it as well as a mature Christian, but if they don’t have a Biblically valid salvation testimony, then they fail right out of the gate.

, bear lots of fruit, and exhibit a sanctified lifestyle. They have to grow into it as they learn more and get to know Jesus better and love Him more.

Nowhere in scripture are we told that regeneration or being born again is something we grow into.

 

[Peeps]

Based on listening to his show for twenty years, I believe he’s very much an Arminian who believes man is basically good and will make the right choice if given the chance.

No. Please read this link to a column by Dr. Dobson. I think it disproves your notion that he believes that man is basically good.

In fact, one reason that so many Catholic parents dislike Dr. Dobson is that he teaches that children are inclined to rebel and disobey their parents, even as young as 18 months! In one of his books, he describes the battle that his wife, Shirley, had with their 18-month old daughter, Danae, over a clean floor. Danae insisted on stepping on the floor, while her mother kept telling her to stop. The battle ended with a spanking for the 18-month old. Many Catholic parents find this unacceptable parenting.

Here’s the link: God Makes Sense Even When He Doesnt Make Sense, Part 4

 

[Peeps]

I’ve gotten different answers from Catholics about this. I am baffled that the Catholic Church would accept a Christian baptism, as they mean two radically different things in our respective religions.

By the way, it might help for you to know that my husband and I are converts to Catholicism after 47 years of Evangelical Protestantism. We were Evangelicals of Evangelicals–extremely involved in our churches and in several para-church organizations both local, national, and international. I grew up in a church where Billy Graham Associate evangelists were regular guest speakers, and Dr. Bill Bright and his associates also spoke. In fact, the current President of Campus Crusade for Christ was a member of my childhood church (not sure if he still is–the church has become quite liberal in its attitudes).

My pastor’s wife was Evelyn Christenson, the author of such wonderful books as What Happens When Women Pray.

I grew up with John Ortberg in my Sunday school classes, VBS, and youth group. Many times, I accompanied him when he sang. We all knew he would grow up to be a great preacher and teacher, and he is. i recommend him to Catholics–great books!

These are just a few examples of the stellar Evangelical Protestant leaders and teachers that I grew up with.

My husband’s background was a little different–he grew up in a Pentecostal Church (A of God) that became one of the U.S.'s first mega-churches. The speakers and teachers in his church were renowned Pentecostal leaders.

After we were married, we continued our very active involvement in Evangelical Protestant churches as we attended college and moved around the country. I am not exaggerating to say that we were in church or in a church-led venue 5-6 evenings or days a week. On Sundays, we were at church by 8 a.m. for the early service (I played piano), then Sunday school, followed by children’s church (I led it and wrote the material for it), and didn’t get home until around 1:00 p.m. or later. (This is why I shake my head in disbelief when Catholic complain about a Mass that lasts longer than an hour! The sermons in our Evangelical Protestant churches lasted at least 45 minutes, and usually longer!!)

We were at church or in the homes of church members almost every evening for various mission activities and classes, Bible studies, cottage prayer meetings, youth and children’s activities, music practices or concerts, etc.

We could have won a prize for “Most Fervent Evangelical Protestants.”

So you’re not talking to a cradle Catholic here. My husband and I studied for 2 years before making the decision to convert to Catholicism.

And although a lot of Catholics on CAF are horrified, we both continue to be involved in small ways with our Evangelical Protestant friends and their churches. I play piano in Evangelical Protestant churches (many of which have lost their Praise and Worship bands and are thrilled to hear and sing real hymns again!). My husband listens to CCM and we both attend the occasional concert when the artist is good.