Evangelicalism and American Politics

[Peeps]

Nowhere in scripture are we told that regeneration or being born again is something we grow into.

Of course being born again isn’t something that we “grow into.”

But growing in spiritual maturity is spoken of throughout the Bible!

I would venture to say that many, if not most, Evangelical Protestant Bible studies and sermons are all about becoming mature Christians and growing in our faith and knowledge of Jesus Christ, our Savior and Lord!

Here are just a few verses off the top of my head from the BIBLE that admonish us to grow in our faith and seek maturity in the Lord:

II Peter 3:18
Ephesians 4: 13-16 (first verses I thought of when I read your post!)
Heb. 6:1
Luke 8: 14-15
I Peter 2: 2-3
Col. 1: 9-10
Heb. 5: 12-14
I Corinth. 13: 10-12 (Yes, the Love Chapter! Even Catholics know this one!)
II Peter 1:5-8

There are many many more passages of Scripture that admonish us to grow up into mature Christians. It is very appropriate for Dr. James Dobson to speak of Pres. Trump’s need to “mature” and “grow” from a baby Christian into a mature Christian.

ALL of us need to continue to grow and mature in our faith!

As for having a “valid salvation testimony”–have you talked with Pres. Trump and heard his “testimony?” Dr. Dobson DID talk with him, and tells us that Pres. Trump knows Jesus as His Savior and Lord! Do you not believe Dr. Dobson?! That’s pretty bold of you.

What you’re saying about having a valid salvation testimony sounds to me like what we Evangelical Protestants used to call a “work of man.” The presence a “valid salvation testimony” does not save anyone, and the absence of a “valid salvation testimony” does not condemn anyone. It is Jesus Christ Who saves us. We humans may not be able to articulate a “testimony” until we have matured enough in our faith to be able to speak and/or write about our salvation.

Many Catholics couldn’t begin to articulate a “testimony,” but will stumble over words and give vague responses that make it look like they have no idea Who Jesus is and what He has done–but this human failing does not indicate a lack of salvation. It indicates a lack of ability to articulate in human communication methods what their salvation is and what it means to them personally.

This is where, IMO, Pres. Trump is. He doesn’t know enough and hasn’t had enough time and study to grow in his faith enough to be able to speak about it in articulate ways. But Praise God!–our salvation does NOT depend on our testimony, but on Jesus Christ’s Death and Resurrection! HE saves us. We do not save ourselves.

 

[HollowMan]

No. Please read this link to a column by Dr. Dobson. I think it disproves your notion that he believes that man is basically good.

I don’t see how. Literally nothing in the article addresses original sin or total depravity.

 

[HollowMan]

Of course being born again isn’t something that we “grow into.”

But growing in spiritual maturity is spoken of throughout the Bible!

And if we were talking about “growing in spiritual maturity”, you might have a point. But we’re talking about justification and salvation.

As for having a “valid salvation testimony”–have you talked with Pres. Trump and heard his “testimony?”

I’ve heard various statements he’s made about his religious beliefs on television.

Dr. Dobson DID talk with him, and tells us that Pres. Trump knows Jesus as His Savior and Lord! Do you not believe Dr. Dobson?! That’s pretty bold of you.

I believe Dobson believes that. But for the reasons I’ve already explained, I’m not really interested in Dobson’s opinion on theological matters.

What you’re saying about having a valid salvation testimony sounds to me like what we Evangelical Protestants used to call a “work of man.”

Yeah, because nothing says “I was a Christian for 47 years” like not knowing what a salvation testimony is.

The presence a “valid salvation testimony” does not save anyone, and the absence of a “valid salvation testimony” does not condemn anyone. It is Jesus Christ Who saves us.

And how do you know Jesus has saved you without a salvation testimony?

 

[CTBcin]

I’ve gotten different answers from Catholics about this. I am baffled that the Catholic Church would accept a Christian baptism, as they mean two radically different things in our respective religions.

Catholics accept any baptism, as long as it is done with water and the correct trinitarian formula. You do realize that lots of Christians believe the same thing as Catholics about baptism, right? Or are you saying that fundamentalist evangelicals are the only true Christians?

 

[HollowMan]

Catholics accept any baptism, as long as it is done with water and the correct trinitarian formula. You do realize that lots of Christians believe the same thing as Catholics about baptism, right? Or are you saying that fundamentalist evangelicals are the only true Christians?

Fundamentalists may believe they’re the only true Christians but I don’t. How in the world did I become a spokesman for fundamentalists? I never even mentioned them. All I said is that it surprises me that Catholics accept Christian baptism, because baptism represents two radically different things in our respective religions.

 

[CTBcin]

because baptism represents two radically different things in our respective religions.

The Lutherans, Anglicans/Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and Methodists, traditionally have held a similar understanding to Catholics on the nature of baptism. That’s why I assumed you were speaking from an fundamentalist evangelical perspective.

 

[HollowMan]

I was a Methodist for twenty-six years. I literally grew up in the Methodist church my grandparents founded. In addition, my uncle was the sexton and I was his assistant for years. Never heard that Methodists believe this. And I know Presbyterians don’t believe this. Just because somebody is a paedo-sprinkler, don’t assume they share Catholicism’s beliefs.

 

[twf]

That’s not true. Mormon baptism is done with the Trinitarian formula and with water, and yet was declared invalid by the CDF. Intent matters.

 

[HollowMan]

Post deleted so as not to feed the troll.

 

[Peeps]

And how do you know Jesus has saved you without a salvation testimony?

I stand on the Word of God and the promises therein, and as a Catholic, I stand on the teachings of my Church which was established by Jesus Himself and is guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects the leaders from propagating error.

I am confused here. Can you please describe exactly what you mean by a “salvation testimony.” I think we might be talking about two different things. When I say, “testimony”, I am referring to spoken or written words describing what Jesus Christ has accomplished in our lives and what He means to us in our daily lives. The testimony is is usually accompanied by words of praise and thankfulness for God’s goodness.

Is that what you are talking about?

 

[Peeps]

Yeah, because nothing says “I was a Christian for 47 years” like not knowing what a salvation testimony is.

You are misquoting me.

I said, “my husband and I are converts to Catholicism after 47 years of Evangelical Protestantism.”

I never said that I was a “Christian” for 47 years before becoming Catholic. That makes no sense.

Are you perhaps using the term “Christian” to refer to "non-Catholics.? If so, that is offensive to me and other Catholics, as we ARE Christians.

And I admit, I have no idea what you are talking about when you say “salvation testimony.” This term is unfamiliar to me. I never heard it used in any of the Evangelical Protestant churches that I was associated with. I have heard the term “personal testimony” and “word of testimony” all my life, and wonder if the term you are using is another way for referring to this. That is what I am assuming in my posts, but I begin to think that I was wrong to make this assumption, and that you are referring to a specific action that is more than just words of praise to God and descriptions of what He has done for me.

I have asked you to clarify this term “salvation testimony” in a post above this one. I am interested to know whether this term is used in a specific Protestant denomination. Thank you.

 

[HollowMan]

You say you were a Christian for forty-seven years and yet, you don’t know what a salvation testimony is.

That’s about as ridiculous as somebody saying, “I’ve been a doctor for forty-seven years. Kidney? Never heard of it.”

Even if you don’t know what it is, shouldn’t you be able to put “salvation” and “testimony” together? Seriously, I can’t think of anything more obvious than “salvation testimony” being a testimony of how you were saved.

Nowhere in scripture does it say the Holy Spirit keeps men from error. To the contrary, the Bible repeatedly warns us to guard against error.

 

[Peeps]

I don’t see how. Literally nothing in the article addresses original sin or total depravity.

The term “original sin” is not used by Evangelical Protestants the same way that Catholics use it. Evangelical Protestants usually say “Sin Nature” rather than “stain of original sin”–I am not certain whether it’s theologically correct to say that these two terms mean the same thing. I suspect that theologians would say the two terms are different.

Evangelical Protestants definitely do NOT believe that baptism cleanses us of the stain of original sin or the sin nature or ANY sins!

Evangelical Protestants believe that Jesus died to “cover our sins,” and when God the Father looks at us, He does not see us and our sinfulness and our inherited sin nature, but rather, He sees Jesus, Jesus only, in all His perfection.

Evangelical Protestants believe that baptism is an outward sign of our inward commitment to Jesus. They believe baptism is a testimony to the world that “I have decided to follow Jesus.” They do NOT believe it is necessary for salvation.

“Total depravity” is a term used by Calvinists (mainly the Reformed and Presbyterians, which are not considered Evangelical Protestant denominations). I did not hear this term used in Evangelical Protestant churches.

Dr. Dobson’s grandfather and father (and I believe his great-grandfather as well) were ordained ministers in the Church of the Nazarene, which is considered an Evangelical Protestant denomination.

Many of the Evangelical Protestant denominations incorporate some Calvinistic teachings (the TULIP) into their denominational teachings, so it’s possible that Dr. Dobson subscribes to this teachings.

In the quote that I linked you to, Dr. Dobson says:

"How can anyone who has raised a toddler fail to recognize that rebellion, selfishness and aggression do not have to be cultivated. Kids come by it quite naturally. Thus, this most basic characteristic of human nature has been overlooked by those specifically trained to observe it.

It seems obvious from this quote (and many others in his books and speeches) that Dr. Dobson believes that children have a “sin nature” that will manifest itself at a young age.

In all of his books on child-rearing, Dr. Dobson explains that a person’s sin nature will begin to manifest itself in early childhood by such behaviors as disobedience, defiance, sassing, etc. He teaches that parents must act quickly to discipline children at an early age in order to train them not to practice “wilful defiance.”

Dr. Dobson goes into great detail about the differences between childish irresponsibility, which should never be “punished” because it is not sin, and wilful defiance," which is sin manifesting itself, and should not be tolerated by parents even at ages as early as 18 months.

Again, I’ve learned that many Catholic parents can’t accept this explanation of child behavior and disagree with Dr. Dobson’s insistence that “wilful defiance” must be halted by parents and other authority figures at very young ages, and that waiting until the child is at an “age of accountability” is too late. .

 

[twf]

Yes, that’s where intent comes in, which was my point. They have the correct matter (water) and form (the name of the Trinity), but their intent is deficient, due to their heretical understanding of the Godhead, and thus their baptism is not a Christian baptism.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

It seems to me as a cradle Catholic and an American, that Evangelical spirituality is very closely connected with politics in a deeper way than for Catholics.

I also notice that Evangelicals are pretty good at compartmentalizing.
Like for instance, if they disagree with their political party on an issue, they won’t leave that party, but will work “behind the scenes” to help that cause, like maybe by volunteering or contributing money.

But again, this is my impression as an outsider.

 

[Peeps]

You say you were a Christian for forty-seven years and yet, you don’t know what a salvation testimony is.

Perhaps you missed my post.

You are misquoting me. I did NOT say that I was a Christian for 47 years. I said that I was Evangelical Protestant for 47 years before converting to Catholicism.

And although your tone is not the kindest, I get it–you are using the term “salvation testimony” in the same way that I have used the term “personal testimony” or “word of testimony” in my years in the Evangelical Protestant churches (and still use it when I am in the company of Evangelical Protestant Christians.)

And I will stick with my original assertation–that unless you personally have talked with Pres. Trump and it is obvious to you that he truly has NO CLUE about Christianity and belief in God–you have NO RIGHT to make the assumption that he is NOT a Christian!!

If you have no regard for Dr. Dobson’s personal testimonial of Pres. Trump’s Christianity, OK. I can buy that, If you don’t have any respect or admiration of Dr. Dobson, then you are not alone. I have come across many Catholics, and almost ALL Mainline Protestant Christians who do not have any respect or regard for Dr. Dobson and even consider him a racist, a sexist, and a homophobe, and those are just the printable names that he is called. At the very least, as I have described earlier, many Catholic parents utterly reject his child-rearing teachings and want nothing to do with him.

But as I said, you have no right to assume that Pres. Trump has no “salvation testimony.” You just haven’t heard it yet. When you see him in person, ask him. But I suspect that his “testimony” will never meet your standards or the standards of whatever church/fellowship you belong to, just as my Evangelical Protestant credentials don’t meet your standards, and the fact that I questioned your term “salvation testimony” causes you to question MY Christianity.

May God go with you.

 

[HollowMan]

Deleted so as not to feed the troll.

 

[CTBcin]

That’s not true. Mormon baptism is done with the Trinitarian formula and with water, and yet was declared invalid by the CDF. Intent matters.

Ah yes, thanks for pointing this out. I forgot to mention intent.

 

[CTBcin]

No, Christians believe

If you’re going to explain “what Christians believe,” you’re going to have to be more specific about what type of Christians. There’s lots of different types of Christians that often have vastly differing beliefs.

 

[twf]

Your recent posts are coming across as confrontational and lacking in Charity. Not very effective in an ecumenical dialogue between Christian brothers.