Evangelicals and the Church

[Batjacboy]

:twocents: But Jesus, John, Paul, and the rest say that the one who believes in Christ goes to heaven; none of them mentions being in the Catholic church as a requirement; scripture says that the H.S. baptizes you into Christ’s church when you believe. Are they wrong?

It depends on what you mean by “believing.”

Remember:

Mt 7:21-23… Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Part of doing the will of His Father is believing in the Church he established.

“Believing”, taken simply, and baptism, are not sufficient: as Christ and the Apostles taught, there’s more to it than that.

 

[Eden]

sadie2723:

Well, the Lord works in mysterious ways, but I guess…whatever gets you in the door. We are glad that Mary helped to bring you the the feet of her son.

Agreed.

 

[ReginaNova]

Alfie is flat-out wrong. He bases his argument on an incorrect translation of “evangelical”. In German, the word “evangelisch” is translated NOT as “evangelical” but as “Protestant”. Specifically, “evangelisch” refers to LUTHERAN Protestants in Germany. (Look in any German-English dictionary to confirm this.) In Germany, there are two major religions, both Christian–Catholic (mostly in the south) and Lutheran Protestants, largely in the North.

The “evangelical Christians” that Alfie is referring to is a relatively recent development of Protestant Christianity evolving out of other Protestant denominations in the United States in the late 1800s. It has since been exported from the U.S. to Europe, to South and Latin American, and to Asia–but only in the last 50 years or so (that is, AFTER World War II). Until then,“evangelical/non-denominational/fundamentalist/Baptist/born-again” type Protestantism was almost exclusively an American phenomenon.

Alfie ought to be more clear on his facts before making such outrageous arguments. But then again, he couldn’t even remember the book he supposedly read this theory in. Except to suggest that it might have been a “Christian magazine” like a Billy Graham magazine.

Furthermore, unlike Alfie’s brand of American grown Protestant Christianity, our Catholic faith goes back 2000 years to Christ and his disciples. Now that’s history!

 

[sadie2723]

ReginaNova:

Alfie is flat-out wrong. He bases his argument on an incorrect translation of “evangelical”. In German, the word “evangelishe” is translated NOT as “evangelical” but as “Protestant”. Specifically, “evangelishe” refers to LUTHERAN Protestants in Germany. (Look in any German-English dictionary to confirm this.) In Germany, there are two major religions, both Christian–Catholic (mostly in the south) and Lutheran Protestants, largely in the North.

The “evangelical Christians” that Alfie is referring to is a relatively recent development of Protestant Christianity evolving out of other Protestant denominations in the United States in the late 1800s. It has since been exported from the U.S. to Europe, to South and Latin American, and to Asia. But “evangelical/non-denominational/fundamentalist/Baptist/born-again” type Protestantism is an American phenomenon.

Alfie ought to be more clear on his facts before making such outrageous arguments. But then again, he couldn’t even remember the book he supposedly read this theory in. Except to suggest that it might have been a “Christian magazine” like a Billy Graham magazine.

Furthermore, unlike Alfie’s brand of American grown Protestant Christianity, our Catholic faith goes back 2000 years to Christ and his disciples. Now that’s history!

One word to the wise. I think that Alfie is a girl. Alfie, correct me if I am wrong on this…and if I am, I am sorry.

 

[sandusky]

sadie2723:

Nope. But they Jesus also says that to have eternal life, you must eat his flesh and drink his blood. Thus, I find a small fly in the ointment. Part of the fullness of the Catholic Chuch is found in communion and those who believe in transubstantiation.

What about those who are divorced, and remarried? They cannot receive the Eucharist. They cannot receive the Eucharist unless they can obtain an annulment: See Here, Here,
Here, And Here

Do they lose eternal life, if they cannot get an annulment, or die before they do.

 

[carol_marie]

sandusky:

What about those who are divorced, and remarried? They cannot receive the Eucharist. They cannot receive the Eucharist unless they can obtain an annulment: See Here, Here,
Here, And Here

Do they lose eternal life, if they cannot get an annulment, or die before they do.

If they are remarried without having their first marrage annuled - they are committing adultery, which is a mortal sin. That’s why they can’t receive the Eucharist.

Anyone in mortal sin is in serious danger because you are right - we never know when we will die. That’s why it is VERY wise not to put ourselves in that position.

 

[mtr01]

nevermind (delete)

 

[scylla]

Sandusky,
It is really quite easy to get to heaven, you just need to repent and allow Jesus to work through you. Yet as you illustrated there are many people who just throw it away. Yet the Catholic Church always invites the sinners back and the Eucharist is there to those who repent and reform their lives.
If you constantly are sinning by living in adultary you are in grave danger of not going to Heaven. This is because you are placing your own desires, (to have another wife, sex with someone elses spouse, etc) ahead of your fidelity to God.
You can always repent and live as brother and sister and die knowing you placed God first and not your own desires. You really have many times to repent and give your life to God, yet there are many people who would rather chase their own desires for happiness instead of pick up a cross and follow Jesus.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[jonfan]

Alfie:

If you believe that a Protestant can go to heaven or at least I assume you meant anyone. Than there is no need for the fullness of the Catholic church…correct? Or are you saying I will never get out of purgatory?

Alfie,
No one here is condeming you to hell. We don’t do that in the Catholic Church. But we do however believe in one true Church. To be quite frank; Jesus has warned us about this. Why do think there have been so many “reformations” in his name? anyway. we love ya and take care.
God bless,

Jon

 

[magdelaine]

sandusky:

What about those who are divorced, and remarried? They cannot receive the Eucharist. They cannot receive the Eucharist unless they can obtain an annulment: See Here, Here,
Here, And Here

Do they lose eternal life, if they cannot get an annulment, or die before they do.

It is important to envision that the Church teachings on sexuality maintain that sexual relations for human beings are not a right, but a priviledge granted through the sacrament of matrimony. Because we are at our most Godly, most like the trinity, in congugal love, that area in our personal life is actually entirely “God’s territory”… This is very different that what I was brought up to believe and it helps me understand the church teachings on contraception, as well. Who’s big idea was it that we have a “right” to form relationships and have sex with whomever we like regardless of previous vows anyway? One of the holiest people I know is a divorced man who recieves communion several times a week. How? He is celibate!

 

[Vaclav]

I’d like to address a few points if I may.

First, as is typical there are a few kernels of truth in here. Bavaria was the region of Germany where Hitler found the most support. The people of Berlin disliked Hitler for the most part, as was symolically indicated when he had the Linden trees cut on Unter den Linden Strasse (a famous boulevard in Berlin). The question is, was that strictly a religious matter? The answer is obviously “no.” Culturally, linguistically, and socially Bavaria is a much different place than Berlin and it was true then as well (even more so).

Remember that at that time elections were relatively new experiences and the ruling establishment had been the junkers, the landed aristocracy of Prussia - who helped rule through the Kaiser. Hitler hated the junkers and the junkers hated him (they derisively referred to him as “the little corporal”). So yes, Berliners, who were used to the likes of the Hohenzollerns and even the first elected President Paul von Hindenburg weren’t happy with the thought of “the little corporal” from Austria ruling Germany.

The regional acceptance and non-acceptance of Hitler was mainly based on cultural differences, and not religious ones. Bavaria and Austria are really not so different. Hitler was not as popular in Baden-Württemberg, which was also a predominantly Catholic area.

The scope of ODESSA has never really been proven to be very much at all. Where there Catholics and Lutherans who helped the Nazi regime? Certainly. Where there Catholics and Lutherans who resisted the Nazis? Absolutely. Many good Lutherans and good Catholics, as well as men and women from many faiths and nationalities died in the death chambers. That should not be forgotten. Cardinal Roncalli (later Pope John XXIII) for example, did amazing work in Turkey to safely harbor Jews from Nazi-aligned regimes.

It should also be remembered that anti-semitism and racial dislike (for the Roma people for example) was widespread in Europe and the world and not solely amongst Catholic nations. The Protestand Southern United States is a good example of 1940’s bigotry and many nations turned the Jews seeking refuge away.

Lastly, I think it is important to recall that Hitler used Christianity in his speeches quite often, especially early on, when he needed the support of the people. It is always wise to be cautious of those who use Christianity and promises of morality for political gain.

I’m a Lutheran who is planning to convert to Catholicism

 

[valient_Lucy]

Alfie:

Today Protestants are abandoning their churches because of liberalism. I have to ask my fellow Protestants who have abandoned their faith. WHY? If those churches have rejected true doctrine and the salvation message, are you not under a moral obligation to God to stay in those churches? You are called to be a beacon of light to the lost. If, you cannot toughen it out in a liberal church, than how in the world can you be the salt of the earth in this Godless, heathen society? How many times do I have to repeat myself on this forum and say to you that the overwhelming numbers of Protestants in those churches are on the broad road to hell and they need you. The fact that they are even attending those churches shows that they are still looking for some type of truth. Did the Apostle Paul abandon the church when there was disagreement? No.

Very Interesting. It makes me think of something though.
IF Catholicism had abandoned the true faith, wouldn’t Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others be under a moral obligation to stay in the Catholic Church and work for its reform, rather than to break away and start their own churches?

 

[sadie2723]

valient Lucy:

Very Interesting. It makes me think of something though.
IF Catholicism had abandoned the true faith, wouldn’t Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others be under a moral obligation to stay in the Catholic Church and work for its reform, rather than to break away and start their own churches?

Hey now…Don’t go asking the hard questions of our Protestant friends. To tell the truth, I have often wondered that myself. Could it be that there was some other driving force behind the decision? Lets see…after the reformation got started, Luther got married…something that he could not do as a priest of the Catholic Church. Hmmm…I wonder if that had something to do with his decision?

This goes back to something that I have said time and again. Why do people leave the Catholic Church? Because they can’t handle it. It is really hard. No Abortion, No Birth Control, No Divorce. These are tough rules for some people. Then you get a group of people down the street that say, “Hey, come on down here. We believe in God, but you don’t have to listen to all of those stupid rules. And, we can assure you that you will go to heaven when it is all over.” What a deal!

What a crock.

 

[magdelaine]

valient Lucy:

Very Interesting. It makes me think of something though.
IF Catholicism had abandoned the true faith, wouldn’t Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others be under a moral obligation to stay in the Catholic Church and work for its reform, rather than to break away and start their own churches?

I think Alfie is really beginning to “get” it. When you examine Church History, and even the writings of Luther and Calvin, what makes them so much more trustworthy than the Church that Jesus established? The answer is, in the end, nothing. People were led away on false pretenses. They chose to leave the Church, instead of working for the reform she so badly needed.

So Alfie, the reality is that the Church needs you. She needs all of the seperated Brothers and Sisters in Christ to reinvigorate her from bottom to top. I can only imagine the good that an evangelical spirit would do for the Church, although I’m meeting more and more Catholics that are “on fire for Christ”. So what do you say?

 

[magdelaine]

Vaclav:

I’m a Lutheran who is planning to convert to Catholicism

Thank you for the analysis. And welcome Home!

 

[Vaclav]

Lets see…after the reformation got started, Luther got married…something that he could not do as a priest of the Catholic Church. Hmmm…I wonder if that had something to do with his decision?

No. Luther addressed a vast number of concerns with the papacy and other Church clergy well before meeting and later marrying Katharina. I’m not going to excuse every action taken by Martin Luther, but to say that he chose an easy way out is completely unfair. He took on the most powerful institution in his time, justly or not, I don’t think you can say that he took an easy way out.

Unlike Henry VIII he had no Kingdom, no army, and no hidden political agenda. Unfortunately, I believe that Luther and the Church both took very poor steps at reconciliation and correcting the matters at hand. Luther seemed to eacger to pick the fight and the church seemed eager to make of him an example.

 

[Alfie]

valient Lucy:

Very Interesting. It makes me think of something though.
IF Catholicism had abandoned the true faith, wouldn’t Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others be under a moral obligation to stay in the Catholic Church and work for its reform, rather than to break away and start their own churches?

There is a big difference between Luther and todays Evangelicals. For Luther to stay in the church he would have had to renounce all of his so called heretical beliefs or he would have been burnt to a crisp. In an American protestant church you might be called a few names or be snubbed by some people…big deal. Luther probably should have stayed in the church until he was burned at the stake. It would have been a greater testimony to the world and the Catholic religion would today be a mere footnote in the history books. More people would have converted to protestantism because of his mayrtrdom and we might have avoided the 30 year war.

 

[Alfie]

sadie2723:

One word to the wise. I think that Alfie is a girl. Alfie, correct me if I am wrong on this…and if I am, I am sorry.

You are correct in your surmise. I am a Babe. ( and may I add a Foxy one ) However, what you are **“wrong” ** about is Catholism.

 

[Eden]

Alfie:

There is a big difference between Luther and todays Evangelicals. For Luther to stay in the church he would have had to renounce all of his so called heretical beliefs or he would have been burnt to a crisp. In an American protestant church you might be called a few names or be snubbed by some people…big deal. Luther probably should have stayed in the church until he was burned at the stake. It would have been a greater testimony to the world and the Catholic religion would today be a mere footnote in the history books. More people would have converted to protestantism because of his mayrtrdom and we might have avoided the 30 year war.

Can you give us your history of “Evangelicalism”?

 

[Contarini]

carol marie:

Could I have made a difference had a stayed in my Protestant Church??? Been a beacon of light as you suggested? I doubt it. I think that if I raised my hand during every Sunday School class and said, “You know, the Catholic Church is the One True Church and we are WAY off base in our beliefs” I do believe I would’ve been shown the door. So I left - and I told everyone who asked why… and I will continue to tell everyone who will listen how much I LOVE being Catholic.

Pragmatic considerations are really irrelevant. The question is whether you thought your local church was a true particular expression of the universal Church. Presumably you no longer thought this–in that case you were right to leave. But you’d better have been 100% sure.

I’m not 100% sure of this. Indeed, I’m pretty sure of the opposite–that while Protestant churches have huge faults, they are true particular churches. Hence, I stay Protestant. I’m not sure I should stay Episcopalian, though, since that is not my heritage. The main reason I stay is that I don’t want to move further away from Catholicism. But Methodism is far closer to the heritage I come from, and it’s also my wife’s affiliation (though she actually prefers Anglicanism and remains Methodist largely out of loyalty). My parents have become Methodists too (we were nondenominational for years, but with a broadly Methodist/Wesleyan background).

Edwin

Edwin