Evangelicals and the Church

[Contarini]

valient Lucy:

Very Interesting. It makes me think of something though.
IF Catholicism had abandoned the true faith, wouldn’t Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others be under a moral obligation to stay in the Catholic Church and work for its reform, rather than to break away and start their own churches?

I agree. In all fairness, it’s not quite true that Luther “broke away.” It would be truer to say that he continued to teach things the Catholic hierarchy condemned, and various local Christian communities (i.e., local churches, but I’m using a vague term to recognize that the decision was often made by the civil authorities) came to accept his teachings and instituted practical measures to implement them. This resulted in schism.

Calvin, on the other hand, did make a conscious decision to leave the Catholic Church and join an already existing Protestantism. I think this was the wrong decision. As, for that matter, was Luther’s bombastic stubbornness in identifying his theological insights with divine revelation and railing on those who disagreed with him as “papists.”

However, what Alfie says is true–both Luther and Calvin faced the threat of death if they had continued to witness to what they believed within Catholicism without seeking some kind of institutional protection (in Luther’s case by accepting the protection of Elector Frederick and gradually guiding the Saxon church into a state of de facto schism; in Calvin’s case, more obviously, by fleeing Paris and moving to Protestant Basle).

That being said, I do believe that Protestant sympathizers within Catholicism who stayed Catholic chose the more excellent way. Cardinal Contarini is a partial example, though he only sympathized with the doctrine of justification–not with Protestant changes in sacramental theology. (And yes, I name my alias after him because I would hope I would have taken his position if I’d lived in the 16th century.) Constantino Ponce de la Fuente is perhaps a better example, since he was imprisoned for his beliefs.

Edwin

 

[Mickey]

Alfie:

How many times do I have to repeat myself on this forum and say to you that the overwhelming numbers of Protestants in those churches are on the broad road to hell

Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; **Luke **6:37

 

[Della]

Contarini:

Pragmatic considerations are really irrelevant. The question is whether you thought your local church was a true particular expression of the universal Church. Presumably you no longer thought this–in that case you were right to leave. But you’d better have been 100% sure.

I’m not 100% sure of this. Indeed, I’m pretty sure of the opposite–that while Protestant churches have huge faults, they are true particular churches. Hence, I stay Protestant. I’m not sure I should stay Episcopalian, though, since that is not my heritage. The main reason I stay is that I don’t want to move further away from Catholicism. But Methodism is far closer to the heritage I come from, and it’s also my wife’s affiliation (though she actually prefers Anglicanism and remains Methodist largely out of loyalty). My parents have become Methodists too (we were nondenominational for years, but with a broadly Methodist/Wesleyan background).

Edwin

Edwin

In that case, I think you should ask yourself if Jesus meant for there to be many particular churches teaching variations of the “truth,” instead of one Church, teaching what he handed onto the Apostles and believing in one faith. Do you really believe that? I sure can’t.

And while there are many blessed souls in Protestant churches, that is merely because of the grace of God (and the same for any truly faithful souls within Catholicism) and not because there ought to be any Protestant churches. All the variations of spiritualities within Protestantism are found within the Church, along with several rites–there is no reason why they couldn’t be at home there where they belong.

And thirdly, by being deliberately separated from the one visible Church Protestants are declaring, knowingly or unknowingly, that they know better than Christ himself how to set up a church and how to organize it. Jesus established one Church–he intended that there should be only one Church. If he had wanted what we have today, he would have said so quite clearly.

 

[Alfie]

Vaclav:

I’d like to address a few points if I may.

First, as is typical there are a few kernels of truth in here. Bavaria was the region of Germany where Hitler found the most support. The people of Berlin disliked Hitler for the most part, as was symolically indicated when he had the Linden trees cut on Unter den Linden Strasse (a famous boulevard in Berlin). The question is, was that strictly a religious matter? The answer is obviously “no.” Culturally, linguistically, and socially Bavaria is a much different place than Berlin and it was true then as well (even more so).

Remember that at that time elections were relatively new experiences and the ruling establishment had been the junkers, the landed aristocracy of Prussia - who helped rule through the Kaiser. Hitler hated the junkers and the junkers hated him (they derisively referred to him as “the little corporal”). So yes, Berliners, who were used to the likes of the Hohenzollerns and even the first elected President Paul von Hindenburg weren’t happy with the thought of “the little corporal” from Austria ruling Germany.

The regional acceptance and non-acceptance of Hitler was mainly based on cultural differences, and not religious ones. Bavaria and Austria are really not so different. Hitler was not as popular in Baden-Württemberg, which was also a predominantly Catholic area.

The scope of ODESSA has never really been proven to be very much at all. Where there Catholics and Lutherans who helped the Nazi regime? Certainly. Where there Catholics and Lutherans who resisted the Nazis? Absolutely. Many good Lutherans and good Catholics, as well as men and women from many faiths and nationalities died in the death chambers. That should not be forgotten. Cardinal Roncalli (later Pope John XXIII) for example, did amazing work in Turkey to safely harbor Jews from Nazi-aligned regimes.

It should also be remembered that anti-semitism and racial dislike (for the Roma people for example) was widespread in Europe and the world and not solely amongst Catholic nations. The Protestand Southern United States is a good example of 1940’s bigotry and many nations turned the Jews seeking refuge away.

Lastly, I think it is important to recall that Hitler used Christianity in his speeches quite often, especially early on, when he needed the support of the people. It is always wise to be cautious of those who use Christianity and promises of morality for political gain.

I’m a Lutheran who is planning to convert to Catholicism

The Catholics were on average more pro Hitler than the Lutherans because Hilter had been a nominal Catholic. There have always been hostilies between Catholics and Protestants in Germany. When Bismarck United Germany he would not permit the Austrians to be part of the first Reich because they were Catholic.The Bavarians are more Bavarian than German because they are not of pure German stock…as a result of inner breeding with Atilla the Huns gang. Some of them talk about wanting their own country.

Getting back to the religions in Germany. If someone lived in a certain German state they had to accept the religion of that particular leader who ruled each state.That was one of the conditions for ending the 30 Years War.

PS. Shame on you for converting. Too many protestants died so that you would have the right to practice your own faith without fear of persecution. This is a slap in the face to your heritage.

 

[Mickey]

Alfie:

PS. Shame on you for converting.

**St. Paul … says, … ‘By judging another you condemn yourself’ (Rom. 2:1). But men have given up weeping for their own sins and have taken judgment away from the Son. They themselves judge and condemn one another as if they were sinless. **
St. Maximos the Confessor (Third Century on Love no. 54)

 

[Vaclav]

The Catholics were on average more pro Hitler than the Lutherans because Hilter had been a nominal Catholic. There have always been hostilies between Catholics and Protestants in Germany. When Bismarck United Germany he would not permit the Austrians to be part of the first Reich because they were Catholic.The Bavarians are more Bavarian than German because they are not of pure German stock…as a result of inner breeding with Atilla the Huns gang. Some of them talk about wanting their own country.

Bismarck had nothing to do with not allowing the Austrians into the Prussian Empire! Austria would never have joined because they were the head of the Austro-Hungarian Empire under the Haupsburg family. The Haupsburgs would never have pledged allegiance to the Hohenzollerns and vice versa! The Prussians had fought a war with Austria not long before unification in order to gain the Schleswig Holstein territories. Austria never asked to be a part of Germany while under Haupsburg rule. The reason Bavaria and Baden-Wurtemburg joined was primarily the 1871 Franco-Prussian war. Those two Southern states may have been Catholic, but they united with Prussia in their total dislike of the Catholic French (and Bismarck knew that they would).

Bavaria is a “free state” in Germany, but so are Bremen, Berlin, and a few others. That in and of itself is not remarkable.

Getting back to the religions in Germany. If someone lived in a certain German state they had to accept the religion of that particular leader who ruled each state.That was one of the conditions for ending the 30 Years War.

Not true. In Bavaria for example, a Catholic State, there are many Lutheran cities, towns, and villages. I ought to know, I was born in one.

PS. Shame on you for converting. Too many protestants died so that you would have the right to practice your own faith without fear of persecution. This is a slap in the face to your heritage.

I cannot help what I feel called to do. I read the Catechism and for the first time in my life the Bible and what I had learned made sense to me. I also discovered that many of the myths about Catholicism were easily dispelled. I have no intention of persecuting anyone, and your comments will pale in comparison to my mom’s (you want to talk about German Lutheran versus German Catholic dislike of one another!) so I’m not really sure what you want me to say.

For me, there is an intellectual rigor in Catholicism that goes back to the apostles. It is truly amazing.

 

[PaulDupre]

Alfie:

Hilter only won one third of the entire German vote and most of those votes came from conservative Catholics who supported him because he was Catholic and not liberal Protestants.

According to “Mein Kampf”, Adolf Hitler repudiated his nominal Catholic upbringing during his days as an aspiring young artist - long before he became politically active. As he grew older his hatred of Catholicism (and Christianity in general) only grew more rabid.

It is ridiculous to portray Hitler as a Catholic, and only someone with no knowledge of history (or with an agenda against the Catholic Church) would do so.

 

[Contarini]

Alfie:

The Catholics were on average more pro Hitler than the Lutherans

I think that’s bunk. There certainly were Catholics who supported Hitler, but generally speaking the Catholics were actually the main force that could have stopped Hitler. That’s Cornwell’s argument against Pius XII–that he made a deal with Hitler that dismantled the Catholic political parties that were the main obstacle to Hitler coming to power. (I think there were more excusable reasons for this decision than Cornwell recognizes, BTW, though I tend to agree that it was a horrible mistake.)

because Hilter had been a nominal Catholic.

I’m not sure how much that influenced Catholics to support him.

There have always been hostilies between Catholics and Protestants in Germany. When Bismarck United Germany he would not permit the Austrians to be part of the first Reich because they were Catholic.The Bavarians are more Bavarian than German because they are not of pure German stock…as a result of inner breeding with Atilla the Huns gang. Some of them talk about wanting their own country.

The first and last sentences are accurate–the rest is really muddled. “Germany” as we know it is Prussia plus everything Prussia could swallow. Austria was too big to swallow (at the time it was part of a large empire spanning much of central and southeastern Europe). Bavaria was too big to swallow whole–the Prussians had to give them a special status. *All *German regions tend to have local loyalties and to think of themselves as Swabians or Saxons or whatever rather than Germans. In some areas this has been diluted a great deal through “internal immigration.” And as you note religion plays a big part. Obviously Bavarians have a more separatist attitude in part because of their Catholicism. I’m not sure where you got the Attila nonsense. It sounds as if you’ve been listening to some crackpot racial theories.

Getting back to the religions in Germany. If someone lived in a certain German state they had to accept the religion of that particular leader who ruled each state.That was one of the conditions for ending the 30 Years War.

No, it was established in 1555 at the Peace of Augsburg. The Peace of Westphalia, to which you allude (1648), let the Calvinists into the deal and rearranged the boundaries somewhat. However, as others have noted, minority churches did survive in many areas.

PS. Shame on you for converting. Too many protestants died so that you would have the right to practice your own faith without fear of persecution. This is a slap in the face to your heritage.

Oh that’s silly. People have to follow the truth where it leads them. Would you say the same thing to a Jewish person who became Christian?

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Della:

In that case, I think you should ask yourself if Jesus meant for there to be many particular churches teaching variations of the “truth,” instead of one Church, teaching what he handed onto the Apostles and believing in one faith. Do you really believe that? I sure can’t.

No. But I don’t believe a lot of things that happen–including things that happen in the Catholic Church–are the will of Christ either. The question is how do we get from the imperfect state of affairs in which we find ourselves to one in which the will of Christ is done perfectly–and can we expect to get there in this lifetime?

All the variations of spiritualities within Protestantism are found within the Church

I’m sorry, but that’s just not true.

Edwin

 

[Alfie]

PaulDupre:

According to “Mein Kampf”, Adolf Hitler repudiated his nominal Catholic upbringing during his days as an aspiring young artist - long before he became politically active. As he grew older his hatred of Catholicism (and Christianity in general) only grew more rabid.

It is ridiculous to portray Hitler as a Catholic, and only someone with no knowledge of history (or with an agenda against the Catholic Church) would do so.

At that time did the Vatican denounce Hitler when he ran for Chancellor…NEIN! It wanted a Catholic Chancellor in Germany for a couple of reasons. The first one being to use Germany as a buffer state against communism and to promote Catholism regardless of his anti- semitism. You know darn well that up until the time of pope John Paul the official Catholic position was that the Jews killed Jesus therefore anti-semitism was a venial sin. Hitler hated the Evangelicals most of all and they were the first to be arrested even though they were small in number.

 

[Alfie]

Contarini:

I think that’s bunk. There certainly were Catholics who supported Hitler, but generally speaking the Catholics were actually the main force that could have stopped Hitler. That’s Cornwell’s argument against Pius XII–that he made a deal with Hitler that dismantled the Catholic political parties that were the main obstacle to Hitler coming to power. (I think there were more excusable reasons for this decision than Cornwell recognizes, BTW, though I tend to agree that it was a horrible mistake.)

I’m not sure how much that influenced Catholics to support him.

The first and last sentences are accurate–the rest is really muddled. “Germany” as we know it is Prussia plus everything Prussia could swallow. Austria was too big to swallow (at the time it was part of a large empire spanning much of central and southeastern Europe). Bavaria was too big to swallow whole–the Prussians had to give them a special status. *All *German regions tend to have local loyalties and to think of themselves as Swabians or Saxons or whatever rather than Germans. In some areas this has been diluted a great deal through “internal immigration.” And as you note religion plays a big part. Obviously Bavarians have a more separatist attitude in part because of their Catholicism. I’m not sure where you got the Attila nonsense. It sounds as if you’ve been listening to some crackpot racial theories.

No, it was established in 1555 at the Peace of Augsburg. The Peace of Westphalia, to which you allude (1648), let the Calvinists into the deal and rearranged the boundaries somewhat. However, as others have noted, minority churches did survive in many areas.

Oh that’s silly. People have to follow the truth where it leads them. Would you say the same thing to a Jewish person who became Christian?

Edwin

The Turks conquered the Germanic tribes that became todays Bavarians. Most Bavarians are dark skinned with black hair and that is another reason why the other German principalities disliked them. They were considered half-breds.

The Austrian-Hungarian Empire just prior to the creation of Germany was more or less an empire on paper. A paper tiger. The Prussians could have made mince meat out of them.If anything prevented the Austrians from joining Germany it would have been the Hungarians who controlled most of the Austrian Empire.

It is a shame when any Protestant converts to Catholicism. The Catholics fired the first shot by trying to prevent the Protestants from leaving the Church. They were the first to kill the Protestants not visa versa. What right did the church have to force someone against their God given conscious to stay in it? Even God doesn’t force us to worship him.We have free will given to us by God.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Alfie:

PS. Shame on you for converting. Too many protestants died so that you would have the right to practice your own faith without fear of persecution. This is a slap in the face to your heritage.

That’s very mature.
PS. I’m doing the same thing this Easter too. And I have German anscestors. Maybe some of them died in the 30 years war.

PPS. Catholics also died under Protestant regimes so that they could have the right to practice their faith without fear of persecution.

 

[scylla]

It is a shame to try and maintain unity in the Body of Christ?

We don’t define our own truth we submit to the truth, repent and reform our lives. This is why so many Protestants who love Jesus study their way to the Catholic Church. Not by going by their own personal truth (which doesn’t exist that is called opinion) but by sincerely opening their hearts to the truth and leaving bias behind.

This is why my wife and I got married in the Catholic Church about a year ago and had our kids baptized in the Church. To be loyal to Christ and follow the Bible command that we must be one in the faith.

in Christ
Scylla

 

[Church_Militant]

Alfie:

At that time did the Vatican denounce Hitler when he ran for Chancellor…NEIN! It wanted a Catholic Chancellor in Germany for a couple of reasons. The first one being to use Germany as a buffer state against communism and to promote Catholism regardless of his anti- semitism. You know darn well that up until the time of pope John Paul the official Catholic position was that the Jews killed Jesus therefore anti-semitism was a venial sin. Hitler hated the Evangelicals most of all and they were the first to be arrested even though they were small in number.

This is (as usual) a crock of rhetorical bunk that you offer absolutely no supporting evidence for. Can you prove this statement with historical facts or is this from your upcoming book. “The Rise and Fall of the Catholic Church’s 3rd Reich” By Alfie the Evangelical and her infallible anti-Catholic opinions which have nothing whatever to do with any historical facts.

Hopefully, the bookstores will be smart enough to place it in the fiction section, right next to The DaVinci Code and the Jack Chick tract rack. (Oh that’s right, real bookstores don’t sell that Chick trash.).

Do you ever have a day when you can resist the urge to post your silly prejudices and a-C rhetoric about the Catholic Church, which I show everyone again…you know almost diddly about.?

You really do display some of the worst prejudices based on nothing more than what you “think” you read sometime back.
Geeze!

 

[Contarini]

valient Lucy:

That’s very mature.
PS. I’m doing the same thing this Easter too. And I have German anscestors. Maybe some of them died in the 30 years war.

PPS. Catholics also died under Protestant regimes so that they could have the right to practice their faith without fear of persecution.

Mostly one Protestant regime–England. Two Catholics were executed in Scotland as well, I believe–I don’t know the circumstances. And some Carmelites were killed in the Netherlands but I think that was in the context of the war of independence, which is a bit different. Elsewhere Catholics were killed in street fighting and in religious wars, etc., but I would suggest that that’s not quite the sort of thing Alfie had in mind.

Edwin

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Most Bavarians are dark skinned with black hair and that is another reason why the other German principalities disliked them. They were considered half-breds.

Oh really? Man that is news to my BAVARIAN FAMILY–blond and fair skinned. . .and traceable back to the 12th century. . .

Where DO you come up with these assertions?

 

[Church_Militant]

Alfie:

The Catholics were on average more pro Hitler than the Lutherans because Hilter had been a nominal Catholic. There have always been hostilies between Catholics and Protestants in Germany. When Bismarck United Germany he would not permit the Austrians to be part of the first Reich because they were Catholic.The Bavarians are more Bavarian than German because they are not of pure German stock…as a result of inner breeding with Atilla the Huns gang. Some of them talk about wanting their own country.

Getting back to the religions in Germany. If someone lived in a certain German state they had to accept the religion of that particular leader who ruled each state.That was one of the conditions for ending the 30 Years War.

And all this from the same girl who stated just a couple of days ago that Catholics programming shouldn’t be allowed Christian broadcasting stations!

Do you have the remotest historical citation to support any of this trash.

I’m calling you on it in front of God and everybody. If you can’t provide us with links to prove the specific allegations that you have made then I think that you owe us a public apology for smack talking about our most holy faith without any evidence to support it.

You’re gonna lose this one too Alfie, for 2 very good reasons.

1. There IS no such evidence from any non-biased historical source. and
2. The Catholics on here can provide ample proof to support the things that we have said from even Jewish sources, who would have no reason to speak up in our defense unless it was the truth.
3. It is a sin to bear false witness against the Catholic Church like that, and you should be ASHAMED for having opened this thread and attempted to do so.

PS. Shame on you for converting. Too many protestants died so that you would have the right to practice your own faith without fear of persecution. This is a slap in the face to your heritage.

No! Shame on YOU for displaying the carnal audacity to disrespect someone else for listening to the leading of the Holy Spirit just because it disagrees with YOUR personal “Evangelical” (and you gripe that we sling “Catholic” around! Gimme a break willya!?) misinformed and misguided anti-Catholic rhetorical prejudices!

As I’ve told you a dozen times before.
Get the facts. Decide for yourself

 

[Contarini]

Alfie:

The Turks conquered the Germanic tribes that became todays Bavarians.

The Huns may have been Turkic-speaking–I don’t claim to have all my Central Asian peoples straight–but the word “Turks” is usually used for later groups. I’d like to know what work of historical scholarship you’re getting this claim from.

Most Bavarians are dark skinned with black hair and that is another reason why the other German principalities disliked them. They were considered half-breds.

I’ve spent a month in Bavaria and three months in Niedersachsen, and this is the first I’ve heard of that. Certainly other Germans do tend to look down on Bavarians–they consider them hillbillies and despise them for being more conservative and religious. (Germans in Niedersachsen were generally amazed when I told them that I loved Bavaria.) But this bizarre racial theory is new to me. It may well be that some Germans came up with this theory–but the example of Nazism shows just how silly and how vicious such theories can be. It sounds like something some Prussian racist would come up with to justify dominating the “lesser breeds” within Germany itself. Not anything worth paying a split second’s attention to except as an example of human folly.

The Austrian-Hungarian Empire just prior to the creation of Germany was more or less an empire on paper. A paper tiger. The Prussians could have made mince meat out of them.If anything prevented the Austrians from joining Germany it would have been the Hungarians who controlled most of the Austrian Empire.

This is exaggerated. The Austrians were defeated by the Germans, true, but they were still too big to conquer. The Hungarians did not control most of the Austrian Empire–the Austrians gave them control of part of it (with the most troublesome minorities) in order to co-opt Hungarian nationalism. Certainly that showed that the Austrians were weakening–but you’re exaggerating the facts out of all proportion.

We could go round and round on this, so I’m going to be rude and pull rank on you. I have a Ph.D. in church history and I currently teach Western Civ at the university level. I don’t claim to be an expert in modern European history )my field is the Reformation), but unless you are such an expert I see no reason to listen to you when you contradict everything I have learned.

It is a shame when any Protestant converts to Catholicism. The Catholics fired the first shot by trying to prevent the Protestants from leaving the Church.

That doesn’t make any sense. The “first shot” is presumably fired by those who leave. That’s not to say that persecution was justified. But the Protestants were taking over state churches, abolishing the Mass, etc. It’s not like they were just setting up little conventicles in houses (not that the Catholics tolerated that either when the Anabaptists, and later Protestants, did it).

What right did the church have to force someone against their God given conscious to stay in it? Even God doesn’t force us to worship him.We have free will given to us by God.

Free will is not an indeterminate, autonomous choice among alternatives. Free will is ordered by our natural desire for the good, although we have the right to accept or reject the good proposed to us. You’re reading a modern secular idea of freedom into Christianity, where it does not belong.

The medieval Catholic idea was that in baptism you make certain vows (even if your parents/godparents actually made them for you). You are bound to keep those vows, which include obedience to the Church.

I don’t defend persecution. You’re right that coercion has no business in Christianity. But you make it sound as if going off and starting your own brand of Christianity (not that that’s exactly what the Reformers did) is a perfectly innocuous thing. It isn’t. It’s an act of violence against Christ’s Body.

Edwin

 

[Eden]

Alfie:

At that time did the Vatican denounce Hitler when he ran for Chancellor…NEIN! It wanted a Catholic Chancellor in Germany for a couple of reasons. The first one being to use Germany as a buffer state against communism and to promote Catholism regardless of his anti- semitism. You know darn well that up until the time of pope John Paul the official Catholic position was that the Jews killed Jesus therefore anti-semitism was a venial sin. Hitler hated the Evangelicals most of all and they were the first to be arrested even though they were small in number.

It is amazing to me the slanders anti-Catholics will perpetuate against the Church in the name of Christianity. Either they do not know history or they are bearing false witness. Can you give documentation verifying that Hitler hated the Evangelicals most of all?

The Catholic Church was persecuted under Hitler:

www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=2857

Hitler was against all Christianity and his ultimate goal was to destroy it. Nazism had a lot of pagan elements. But the Nazi party did see Lutheranism as the Aryan religion and tried to co-opt that history for their own propaganda.

A major contention of the Nazis was that Catholics, by owing allegiance to a foreign Pope, could not be as loyal as those who held a religion based on German blood (Lutheranism).

In Hitler’s early days, it was the non-religious in Bavaria and beyond, who provided him with their support.

TRUTHS ABOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN GERMANY UNDER NAZISM:

1. As soon as the Nazi party became a significant force, the Bishops firmly condemned its philosophy and repeatedly urged Catholics to vote against it.
2. The Catholic Centre party, with the aid of the Catholic Bavarian party did more than any other to try to save the democratic form of government.
3. The Nazi vote in Catholic areas was much lower than in the rest of Germany.
4. Hitler possessed dictatorial powers before the Enabling Act was passed. The Centre party, in common with the Conservative and. Liberal parties, voted for this Act due to fear of personal physical violence and the hopelessness of resistance, not due to sympathy with the Nazis, who were their bitter enemies.
5. The legal and very popular Government of Germany offered a Concordat promising religious freedom and peace. Although the Pope did not trust Hitler there was nothing objectionable in its wording. To refuse to sign would have meant the ensuing war with pagan Nazism being fought over the right of priests to be active in illegal political parties, when over two-thirds of German voters didn’t want a multiparty system of government.
6. The Concordat did not agree to the dissolving of the Catholic parties and trade unions. They, together with all other parties, had been suppressed or dissolved by government action before the Concordat was signed.
7. Hitler did obtain some international prestige from Germany signing the Concordat with the Church. But it was not the first or only international recognition that Hitler was the legal ruler of Germany.
8. Franz Von Papen was not at all typical of Catholic opinion nor a Centre party leader. Although opposed to the pagan aims and actions of Nazism, his misjudgements enabled the Nazis to make use of him.
9. Immediately after Hitler was voted into power, some Catholics genuinely accepted Hitler’s pledges. Others expressed their loyalty to the new one party state and praised those aims which were good, so as to encourage a moderating trend, and allow time for Hitler to honour his promises. This period lasted a few months, and was much shorter than the years of hope and trust allowed by leading British politicians of all parties.
10. The Nazi government was persecuting the Church between 1933 and 1937, and this increased after the publication of the Encyclical, ‘Mit Brennender Sorge’. This strong condemnation of the whole Nazi creed, warned the world that Hitler’s promises were valueless. The world closed its ears to the sufferings of Christians in Germany, so Hitler’s version of what was happening came, with Communist assistance, to dominate much of the media. From this grew the myth of Catholic sympathy for Nazism.

www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/rise-2.htm

 

[sadie2723]

Alfie:

At that time did the Vatican denounce Hitler when he ran for Chancellor…NEIN! It wanted a Catholic Chancellor in Germany for a couple of reasons. The first one being to use Germany as a buffer state against communism and to promote Catholism regardless of his anti- semitism. You know darn well that up until the time of pope John Paul the official Catholic position was that the Jews killed Jesus therefore anti-semitism was a venial sin. Hitler hated the Evangelicals most of all and they were the first to be arrested even though they were small in number.

The depth of hatred for the Catholic Church knows no bounds. I have always been a believer that you should read more than just propaganda before making a decision…an idea that has been lost on many Evangelicals.