A
Alfie
Guest
Church Militant:
Hanging by a thread from my wire…are we?
The whining voice of despair.
Hanging by a thread from my wire…are we?
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M
magdelaine
Guest
Quit diddling around and supply the “proof” for the “rhetorical bunk” you’ve been spewing. We would really, really like to see it.
H
Huguenot
Guest
There have been Baptists in England and other parts of the United Kingdom since about 1610-1620, and on the European continent there were Mennonites and other so-called “Anabaptist” groups even earlier ( the first Anabaptist confession of faith was written in 1527, it is called the Schleitheim Confession ) ; I live in the part of France called Alsace, some Anabaptists arrived there in 1530-1535, and their “children” are still here ; moreover, there also were Amish in Alsace in the 17th century ( but they disappeared, I don’t remember if they all emigrated to the United States–that wasn’t the United States yet at the time ! ) ; all these groups believed / believed that you are not “born” a Christian, you have to “become” one by converting ; maybe the expression “born again” wasn’t used at the time, but the theology was about the same and all these groups baptized only believers ( but I’m not sure if they all did so by immersion )…
H
Huguenot
Guest
But reforming the Catholic Church without leaving it was precisely what Luther wanted to do …
didn’t the Church excommunicate him ? so he was forced to leave …
according to what I know …
S
scylla
Guest
You are right tha there have been Baptists in England who are the forefathers of the Baptists in the United States. There were also Presbyterians and Methodists who came to the United States and over time some evangelical Christians developed.
loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel02.html
The modern Born Again Christian though is a result of this type of theology which also involved James Darby, who preached the Rapture theory.
Many modern day evangelicals come out of a mixture of that and the Jesus Freak movement. It really depends on their founding minister. Of which I am most familiar with the popular Chuck Smith. There are other Evangelical Churches which were founded by other guys.
And sometimes these Evangelical Churches split to create other ones in the case of Calvary Chapel splitting to create Vineyard.
If you would like more info feel free to PM me
God Bless
Scylla
S
scylla
Guest
He wasn’t forced to leave, he left because he decided that only his interpretation was correct.
There are several quotes on this, PM me and I will look it up, unless someone has them on hand.
So since he pretty much said that his interpretation was infallible then not even the church could disagree with him and they excommunicated him, since he declared his opinion supreme.
God Bless
Scylla
F
Franze
Guest
And remember, the unique encyclica not in latin, but in german Mit Brabender Sorge, in 1937 and it was read in all catholic churches in Germany and they suffered problems for this.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
春日野结衣免费观看,卡一卡二卡三免费网站,日本欧美成人高清电影,亚洲国产在线2020最新If this is despair my dear friend… gimme more of it PLEASE!
Pax tecum,
E
Eden
Guest
Alfie’s comments have as much substance as Evangelical theology.
It is no wonder she is so inept at discussing history, “to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant” (Cardinal John Henry Newman, 19th century convert from Anglicanism).
It is no wonder she is so inept at discussing history, “to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant” (Cardinal John Henry Newman, 19th century convert from Anglicanism).
H
Huguenot
Guest
Thanks for your information, I think the situation is very different in Europe and in the United States ( I’m from France ).
I am not a historian and my Evangelical faith doesn’t depend on what Darby said, or others, or on when the concept of new birth ( born again ) was used, but on my own researches , so as far as my faith is concerned it doesn’t change anything …
but I’ve got the feeling that sometimes some people forget that Evangelical Protestantism has European roots ; in France we are in such small numbers ( about O.5 % of the population, which means 1 person in … 200 … and even the global proportion of Protestants is very small : about 2% … 1 person in 50…it might be even less … ) that some people believe that Evangelical Protestantism was born with George W. Bush’s election in the United States in 2000…can you imagine that ???
that is why I keep saying, inclusive in French forums, that “we” arre “older” than that …
thanks for your message on Luther ; for me it is just a historical point…and any way I think he didn’t go far enough in his reforms ; as an Evangelical believer I feel closer to other reformers like Menno Simmons and Konrad Grebel …( “radical reform” )
C
Contarini
Guest
You’re making some sweeping generalizations there. It’s fairer to say that evangelicalism developed out of 18th-century pietism and the revivals of the Great Awakening. (Huguenot, there were similar revivals among French and Swiss Protestants in the 19th century–on parle du “Reveil” et des gens comme Cesar Malan, Alexandre-Rodolphe Vinet, et les freres Monod.) Dispensationalism took over much of American evangelicalism at the end of the 19th century, true, and the “Jesus movement” had a big impact. But there are a lot of evangelicals who reject the one and have little to do with the other.
And to suggest, as Eden does, that Alfie’s theology is somehow representative of evangelicalism is truly ridiculous. One might as well suggest that Eden is representative of Catholicism.
Edwin
M
mark_a
Guest
We could easily make comparisons about how white Baptist preachers incited members to do evil to Blacks, burn and bomb their churches, lynch young Black men, have their women bear false witness after swearing truth on a bible. . . .
but these people probably weren’t very good Christians, were they?
S
scylla
Guest
I did kinda skip over the details as I felt that the link would provide a better background as to how Evangelicalism developed.
I am much more familiar with Evangelicals who are into Dispensationalism, who developed out of the Jesus movement as I live in California, the birthplace of Calvary Chapel and the Vineyard Churches. So my personal experience derives from these two prominant Evangelical non-denominational denominations. So I just naturally classified all Evangelicals as holding to those similar beliefs, but I am always looking to learn more.
God Bless
Scylla
H
Huguenot
Guest
You know the situation in France quite well …and moreover you’re doing quite well in French, congratulations !
Dispensationalism doesn’t seem to be widespread among French Evangelicals …I don’t know the situation in your country in this respect…
S
sadie2723
Guest
Church Militant:
Some would say that the greatest danger to the church is the reformation. I think that it is the ignorance that stems from the reformation…the kind that is coming out of our good friend Alfie.
If this is despair my dear friend… gimme more of it PLEASE!
Pax tecum,
C
Contarini
Guest
It makes sense that you would see things that way being from California. The kind of evangelicalism prevalent on the West Coast is found all over the country, but you guys were affected far more by the Jesus movement. And since mainline Protestant denominations are far more liberal on the West Coast than in much of the rest of the country, evangelicalism tends to be less tied to those denominations (in contrast to the South and the Midwest, where United Methodists, for instance, tend to be very evangelical). At the same time, you don’t have as many outright fundamentalists (as far as I can tell) as other areas such as the South.
Dispensationalism is dominant in American evangelicalism. But among evangelical intellectuals at least there’s a reaction against it. Part of the problem speaking of evangelicalism is that it can be defined in all sorts of ways. But I think the best definition historically is in terms of Pietism and the 18th-century revivals.
For what it’s worth, there is a “National Association of Evangelicals” in the U.S., and you can read their statement of faith online. As you can see, it’s quite broad–the only point Catholics would have real problem with is “the only infallible, authoritative Word of God,” although “the spiritual unity of all believers” is obviously hopelessly inadequate from a Catholic point of view as a description of the unity of the Church.
Another American organization that has some claim to speak for evangelicals is the Evangelical Theological Society. They have a very brief doctrinal statement: “The Bible alone, and the Bible in its entirety, is the Word of God written and is therefore inerrant in the autographs. God is a Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each an uncreated person, one in essence, equal in power and glory.” I’m not sure but what Catholics could conceivably sign this statement, since it specifies “the Word of God written” and Catholics don’t believe (if I’m not mistaken) that any other *texts *simply *are *the Word of God (authoritative Church teaching presumably contains the Word of God in the Catholic view, but you don’t call conciliar statements, etc., the “Word of God written”). Inerrancy in the autographs is a peculiarly Protestant (and especially Calvinist) concern (one that I don’t share–hence I couldn’t sign the statement in good conscience), but I’m sure that many Catholics on this board believe in it (though of course most Catholics, at least most Catholic scholars, do not).
One other note–I wouldn’t call dispensationalism a “denomination” since it’s a theological point of view present in many denominations. Calvary Chapel would indeed count as a “nondenominational denomination” since if I understand them they don’t claim to be a denomination but they do have some kind of fellowship among different churches. I understand why Catholics often use “denomination” to mean something like “theological tradition,” but the two ideas are quite different. A denomination is by definition a kind of organization, not just an idea. The reason some free-church Protestant groupings don’t like to call themselves denominations is that they don’t have a central bureaucracy that controls local churches. But they are “denominations” in the sense that they do have some kind of structured fellowship that identifies them as belonging to a particular group or movement.
Edwin
A
Alfie
Guest
Think about it!!
If there wasn’t a Reformation you would not be living in the United States. Most likely you would be living in a Catholic country that doesn’t have a middle class… only rich and poor classes.
You would not own a computer and be on this forum.
Science and technology would not have advanced because of your church’s opposition to it.
You would not have freedom of speech.
As a woman I would not have equal rights… if not for the Reformation.
Catholism didn’t prevent wars in Europe between Catholic countries. There have been fewer wars in Europe since the Reformation.
The Lutherans started a public school system in Germany for all children which laid the foundation for the school system in America.
Protestantism in Germany under Bismarck started the first social security system and social welfare programs.
Environmentalism started in Protestant Germany. Germany protected its forests.
I could go on and on but I think I made my point. Where Protestantism is predominant there will always be more concern for the common man and his personal dignity.
C
Contarini
Guest
Alfie,
If you seriously think that Bismarck’s brand of Protestant politics is worth emulating, then we may not have a lot of grounds on which to build a dialogue. Bismarck’s amoral pursuit of power (arguably justified by the Lutheran understanding of church-state relations, though that may not be fair to Lutheranism) paved the way for the horrors of the 20th century.
Most scholars these days (Merry Wiesner-Hanks is the most eminent, but Lyndal Roper is another person who’s written about these issues) seem highly dubious about the idea that the Reformation led to greater equality for women. It led to a strong affirmation of the authority of the husband and to women being limited more strictly to a domestic role (with the destruction of monasticism, for instance). Arguably the Protestant understanding of the priesthood of all believers, and the generally egalitarian elements in Protestantism (though there were some inegalitarian elements as well), played a significant role. But it’s hard to say with any certainty, and most of your other claims would be even harder to verify.
Where are you getting this stuff? You keep pontificating as if you were some sort of authority. What are your credentials?
Edwin
If you seriously think that Bismarck’s brand of Protestant politics is worth emulating, then we may not have a lot of grounds on which to build a dialogue. Bismarck’s amoral pursuit of power (arguably justified by the Lutheran understanding of church-state relations, though that may not be fair to Lutheranism) paved the way for the horrors of the 20th century.
Most scholars these days (Merry Wiesner-Hanks is the most eminent, but Lyndal Roper is another person who’s written about these issues) seem highly dubious about the idea that the Reformation led to greater equality for women. It led to a strong affirmation of the authority of the husband and to women being limited more strictly to a domestic role (with the destruction of monasticism, for instance). Arguably the Protestant understanding of the priesthood of all believers, and the generally egalitarian elements in Protestantism (though there were some inegalitarian elements as well), played a significant role. But it’s hard to say with any certainty, and most of your other claims would be even harder to verify.
Where are you getting this stuff? You keep pontificating as if you were some sort of authority. What are your credentials?
Edwin
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Not so! The first schools and hospitals were founded by Catholics, as were the first Universities. It was the re-evangelization of Europe by St. Patrick’s Irish monks that returned scientific farming to them and began the recovery from the “dark ages”.
Bunkum! It was as a result of the persecutions of the reformers that a great many of our Catholic ancestors migrated to the New World.
Can you cite any valid historical works that support that line of rhetoric, because I sure can for my side of this refutation.
Yeah right…
Proof? I believe you must be making things up or reading some really messed up sources. I’ve already shown you how scientific farming was returned to Europe by Catholic monks, and that the education systems were set up by Catholics as well as hospitals. You really do need to go back into your scientific history and look to see just how many of the great scientists have been Catholics. This statement of yours is just more of the same a-C rhetoric. When will you begin to look into these things for yourself and accept that if you are getting all this from religious teachers and preachers that you are being sorely decieved?
More trash! Catholics have been champions of free speech, especially here in the US almost from the outset of this country, as well as in Europe. If not for us the anti-abortion movement would be a pitiful whisper in the wilderness.We are still the only Christians that have the courage to speak out against Birth Control, and have been since 1930 when the reformation step children jumped ship and embraced modernism and relativism.
You better look again lady! The reformers treated their women as badly as anyone else and they had no rights. It sure as vitam aeternam wasn’t the reformation that won them rights. Go back and look at the non-Catholic states that were part of the original 13 colonies and you’ll soon see that your statement is way wrong.
Yeah right…and the reformers invented the internet!
Garbage… Catholic schools were in place LONG before Luther was born.
Germany…now there’s a real shining example of reformation theology in action…
Do you have ANY proof of any of this? Heavy on the propaganda and lite on the facts as usual…oh …that’s another theological “gift” from the reformation.
You’re gonna hurt yourself patting yourself on the back like that…but wait! You’re Evangelical! You can’t take the least credit for any of this since you don’t even hold to the same beliefs that the reformers did. The reformers were not “pentecostal” or “charismatic”, and their writings disagree with evagelical doctrines even as we speak!
As for concern and respect for the common man, I think you have used up all your rhetorical propaganda points and if you will check into the history of Christianity prior to the 1500’s you’ll find that Catholics have been helping the poor for 2,000 years. The Catholic Church today is the largest charitable organization in the world. For more info on Catholic efforts for the common man just contact the people of the village of Chimbote, Peru and ask them where they get their help from.
As usual Alfie…you are long on rhetorical propaganda and way short on the facts.
Pax tecum,
S
sadie2723
Guest
I am not going to even begin to recant the ignorance of those statements that are founded in nothing but speculation and totally fail to take into account any and all other factors that play a part in the development of civilization as a whole. How short sighted can you get? But, it we are going to place the Reformation as the key variable in the development of society, let’s point out a few other little things that the Reformation brought us. Note that this is just spawning from your erroneous logic, but here goes.
Without the Reformation, we would not have legalized abortion in this country. Now that would be one heck of a loss. Imagine if women could not choose…on their own…to put a child to death…how in the world would we survive that?
Without the Reformation, we would not have 65% of all new marriages ending in divorce.
Without the Reformation, we would not have the erroneous doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved, which has lead to more division in Christianity than almost any other issue.
Without the Reformation, we would not have the erroneous doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which cannot be defended by scripture, yet Protestants continue to believe it out of the hatred for Rome which they have been taught is above all things save Christ himself.
Without the Reformation, we would not have the erroneous doctrine of Sola Fide, which cannot be defended by scripture…see response above on Sola Scriptura for the rest…
Without the Reformation, we would not have groups in existence, like Chick Publications and Bob Jones University, that care more about defaming the Catholic Church than they do about preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Without the Reformation, we would not have constant bloodshed in Ireland.
Without the Reformation, we would not have had the embarrassment, as Christians, of Jimmy Swaggart and the PTL club.
Without the Reformation we, as Christians, would not have to endure the heresy and lies of Benny Hinn.
Without the Reformation, we would have a united body for Christ of over 2.5 Billion Christians at this point.
I could go on, but I am sure you see the point of this. I am sure that you are reading this going, “hey, you can’t say that ALL came from the Reformation.” Well, that is the same way I felt when reading Alfie’s post. Again, we see the Protestants attempting to claim all that is good in the world as flowing from the Reformation…perhaps the lady doth protest too much?
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