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Church_Militant
Guest
Maybe you misunderstood me.
I’m asking, "Is there a list within the Bible itself that tells us what writings belong in the Bible?
Is there?
Pax tecum,
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I’m asking, "Is there a list within the Bible itself that tells us what writings belong in the Bible?
Is there?
Pax tecum,
C
Contarini
Guest
Don’t know much about him. I looked at his website and didn’t see what I’d consider clearly fundamentalist distinctives. Typically Pentecostals/charismatics are not considered fundamentalists, though many of them do have the basically aggressive, sectarian attitude toward other Christians that is typical of fundamentalists (and which was the main distinctive I had in mind in my post to Brad). It is to a great extent a matter of definition.
Absolutely. Dave Hunt was precisely the sort of person I had in mind in my post to Brad, and the sort of person I assumed Brad had in mind.
I don’t know anything about him except what I just saw on the website. Again, he looks like a standard conservative evangelical–some would call people like that fundamentalists but that wasn’t really the definition of fundamentalist I had in mind. And given that he has a blurb from Chuck Colson, I’d definitely put him in the “evangelical” rather than “fundamentalist” camp.
Tricky one. Again, I’d say not, but I really don’t know. I can’t get a reliable account of just what he said about JPII, but he seems only to have said that he didn’t know if JPII was in heaven or not. As James White pointed out, that’s no more than Catholic theology would officially say–pending canonization that is. However, I don’t know enough about Minto to say for sure.
I’d say definitely.
Definitely not. Geisler is a good example of an evangelical who is not a fundamentalist. His book on Catholicism has plenty of flaws, but it’s a relatively fair-minded attempt to tackle the issues.
I’d tend to say yes.
Not in the anti-intellectual sense. But he’s certainly not a mainstream evangelical either. I’d label him “conservative confessional Reformed.” He’s definitely a fundamentalist in the original sense, and also in the sense of being anti-ecumenical. However, he’s pretty good at being fair to positions with which he disagrees, which most fundamentalists are not.
No.
No.
Again, I don’t see any clearly fundamentalist–as opposed to conservative evangelical–markers on his website.
From what I remember of listening to him growing up, I’d tend to say yes. But that’s hardly a very well-informed opinion.
That’s not how I’d define it. Who defines it that way? The more common definition is that a fundamentalist is an evangelical who believes in separation from those with differing views. In other words, evangelicals can recognize Christians with whom they disagree (such as Catholics) as brothers and sisters in Christ; fundamentalists cannot.
I freely admit that I’m more liberal than Mel Gibson. . . .
Quite possibly. But it would be fun. I respect Zacharias, though his penchant for distorting quotes and anecdotes used to drive me crazy.
That’s exactly my point–fundamentalists like you can’t stand Graham because he’s too ecumenical. (I have problems with Graham as well, but they are primarily with his soteriology.)
I do have problems with his position on abortion. His attitude to Catholicism is one of the things I most admire about him (I wouldn’t quite call it “support,” though).
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sadie2723
Guest
Church Militant:
Alfie, dear, if you are having a hard time finding support for your arguements, could it be that the arguements you presented are not based in fact at all? Could it be that you are starting to question the propaganda that you have been fed? Could it be that you have started to hear Rome calling you home? Gosh, would that not be wonderful?
I am going to pray on that one.
There is a lot of love for you here Alfie…and an RCIA program is just a phone call away!
I too think that her heart is in the right place…it is her mind I am worried about. Still, I love her, and I would love to see her arguement on the Nazi Catholic question. Weird thing is, I know she is out there reading all of this, yet she refuses to comment. Perhaps it is because she knows we will hold her to a standard of truth that will require documentation and support.
NCR and Apologetics are both essentially debate forums, so the passion level is usually pretty high and “hostility” depends on who is in the discussion at any given time.
Some of us, like my friend Alfie and I, go 'round and 'round all the time, and sometimes she feels “kicked to the curb” which I never intended or that I’m a “slug”, but I really don’t mind and I pray for her and I hope that she is faithful to pray for me. I really believe that she does! I firmly believe that her heart is in the right place.
Pax tecum,
Alfie, dear, if you are having a hard time finding support for your arguements, could it be that the arguements you presented are not based in fact at all? Could it be that you are starting to question the propaganda that you have been fed? Could it be that you have started to hear Rome calling you home? Gosh, would that not be wonderful?
I am going to pray on that one.
There is a lot of love for you here Alfie…and an RCIA program is just a phone call away!
S
sadie2723
Guest
John Hagee
Dave Hunt
Adrian Rogers
Marty Minto
Mike Gendron
Norman Geisler
John Ankerberg
RC Sproul
Ravi Zacaharis
Erwin Lutzer
Michael Yossef
David Jeremiah
I gotta go with CM here…looks like an anti-Catholic hate group to me.
Dave Hunt
Adrian Rogers
Marty Minto
Mike Gendron
Norman Geisler
John Ankerberg
RC Sproul
Ravi Zacaharis
Erwin Lutzer
Michael Yossef
David Jeremiah
I gotta go with CM here…looks like an anti-Catholic hate group to me.
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Eden
Guest
I have to laugh about Marty Minto being on that list though. He was just guy on the radio in Pittsburgh and a minister of a small Evangelical congregation. I lived in Pittsburgh when he got himself fired.
www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/pittsburgh/s_323955.html
“I was called into the office after my show Friday and told that I was being let go because I was alienating the listeners,” said Minto, 39, of New Castle, Lawrence County, who previously did talk-radio shows in Albany, N.Y., Phoenix and Denver. Minto also is senior pastor of the 100-member Turning Point Community Church in New Castle."
“We ended our relationship” with him because of differences in how he conducted his show, Gratner said. “WORD-FM needs to function in this city in support of the entire church – that means everybody – and not focus on denominational issues,” he said."
“The Rev. Ron Lengwin, spokesman for the Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh, said the diocese did not complain to WORD-FM regarding Minto’s show. He said station management contacted the diocese to say that Minto had been fired.”
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sadie2723
Guest
Here is a good link to something Alfie should read. A little testamony from someone who was there to see the Catholics fight the Nazi Party.
catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0064.html
catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0064.html
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Pryority7
Guest
Wow…this is a deep thread…I’m loving this… 
Alfie, I think you need to reconsider every charge against the Catholic Church you’re thowing. Just be honest with yourself and be a lover for truth, not deceit.
P7
Alfie, I think you need to reconsider every charge against the Catholic Church you’re thowing. Just be honest with yourself and be a lover for truth, not deceit.
P7
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sadie2723
Guest
Hey Alfie…here is some additional information for you. You are going to love this one, as it references a book written by a Jewish person. Unless of course you are now going to make the claim that the Jewish state is in league with Rome…oh how the errors pile up. Sorry Alfie…here you go:Wow…this is a deep thread…I’m loving this…
Alfie, I think you need to reconsider every charge against the Catholic Church you’re thowing. Just be honest with yourself and be a lover for truth, not deceit.
P7
“The Israeli consul, Pinchas E. Lapide, in his book, Three Popes and the Jews (New York: Hawthorn Books, Inc., 1967) critically examines Pope Pius XII. According to his research, the Catholic Church under Pius XII was instrumental in saving 860,000 Jews from Nazi death camps (p. 214). Could Pius have saved more lives by speaking out more forcefully? According to Lapide, the concentration camp prisoners did not want Pius to speak out openly (p. 247). As one jurist from the Nuremberg Trials said on WNBC in New York (Feb. 28, 1964), “Any words of Pius XII, directed against a madman like Hitler, would have brought on an even worse catastrophe… [and] accelerated the massacre of Jews and priests.” (Ibid.) Yet Pius was not totally silent either. Lapide notes a book by the Jewish historian, Jenoe Levai, entitled, The Church Did Not Keep Silent (p. 256). He admits that everyone, including himself, could have done more. If we condemn Pius, then justice would demand condemning everyone else. He concludes by quoting from the Talmud that “whosoever preserves one life, it is accounted to him by Scripture as if he had preserved a whole world.” With this he claims that Pius XII deserves a memorial forest of 860,000 trees in the Judean hills (pp. 268-9). It should be noted that six million Jews and three million Catholics were killed in the Holocaust.”
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sadie2723
Guest
Alfie, if you are still interested, here is a great link for you.
columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/ww2jews.html
If you go there, you will see a number of links to books and articles that refute your statements. It is interesting that a great many of them are from Non-Catholic authors. (Will your new be that even the Non-Catholics are in league with the Catholics, and it is just you against the entire world?)
You can all so read an Encyclical issued by Pope Pius XI in 1937, in which he calls all Catholics to rebel against the authority of the Reich.
Enjoy the reading.
Brad
columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/ww2jews.html
If you go there, you will see a number of links to books and articles that refute your statements. It is interesting that a great many of them are from Non-Catholic authors. (Will your new be that even the Non-Catholics are in league with the Catholics, and it is just you against the entire world?)
You can all so read an Encyclical issued by Pope Pius XI in 1937, in which he calls all Catholics to rebel against the authority of the Reich.
Enjoy the reading.
Brad
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Eden
Guest
Great links, Brad!
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sadie2723
Guest
My pleasure…Great links, Brad!
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Contarini
Guest
No, I know for one that I don’t. Besides, there is a guild of historians that includes Protestants, Catholics, secularists, etc. They check each other’s work. Generally speaking anything too biased doesn’t get accepted (though I’m not claiming that the system is foolproof by any means).
Good academic history is not dominated by Catholicism, Alfie. In fact, the Catholics on this board tend to reject it because they think it’s anti-Catholic.
Yes, but so is every other kind of history. The important issue is not “what bias does this book have” but “is this book fair in how it handles its bias?” Some Catholic historians are good at this, others are not. Even good history still has some bias, so you should read works of history from different perspectives.
No, they can’t, because non-Catholic historians will call them on it if they do (and furthermore because any good historian, and any good Catholic, is devoted to seeking the truth).
For instance, an ecumenical Catholic scholar named George Tavard wrote a book a few years ago on the origins of Calvin’s theology. He tried to argue that Calvin started out as a reformist Catholic, and obviously Tavard wished Calvin had stayed that way. The book was reviewed by Calvinist reviewers such as my advisor’s former student Richard Muller, who tore it to pieces. Brad Gregory, a Catholic historian, wrote what I think is an excellent (though flawed) book called *Salvation at Stake, *about martyrdom in the 16th century. I think he did an excellent job of being fair to all sides. But he incurred the wrath of the secular historians, who proceeded to pummel him. A lot of their criticisms were wrong-headed, I think (one of them argued that St. Thomas More wasn’t really a martyr because papal supremacy was a political rather than theological issue–which makes no sense to me). But the point is that they were openly aired and anyone who wants to can see what differeing historians had to say about Gregory’s book.
Well, Justo Gonzalez’ *The Story of Christianity *wouldn’t be a bad place to start. Jaroslav Pelikan’s *The Christian Tradition *is far more in-depth but well worth reading if you can handle it (I haven’t read the last volume myself). I hear good things about the *History of the World Christian Movement *by Dale Irvin and Scott Sunquist but haven’t looked at it in great detail.
That’s just talking about general works. Note that of these three texts, Gonzalez is a Puerto Rican Methodist (in fact, my main disagreement with him is his overly Protestant bias), and Pelikan was a Lutheran when he wrote *The Christian Tradition *though he has since converted to Orthodoxy. Irvin and Sunquist are both mainline Protestants–Sunquist appears to be an evangelical (he worked with InterVarsity for several years) while Irvin does not.
Not necessarily. Of the three works I cited above, Pelikan’s is the closest to my point of view. The other two have different perspectives.
Oh spare me the juvenile post-modern cynicism. Any smart fifth-grader can figure that much out. Intellectual maturity consists of taking up the challenge of putting all the biases together and trying to figure out the truth. It’s hard work, true. But it’s worth while.
So why didn’t it? Why did the Bible handed down by the Catholic Church contain the potential for questioning Church dogmas? If your theory were true, the Reformation could never have happened. It was in Catholic Bibles that sixteenth-century Christians searched in vain for indulgences, transubstantiation, and the cult of the saints.
I am a Protestant because I believe that at least some of the questioning that happened in the Reformation was healthy. I am an ecumenical, pro-Catholic Protestant because I recognize that the Reformation built on the heritage of patristic and medieval Catholicism, and would have been impossible except for the faithfulness of the pre-Reformation Church.
In Christ,
Edwin
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sadie2723
Guest
I can’t resist…here is one more for you Alfie. Now, this one IS on a Catholic site…but it will give you a bunch of articles by people who are not Catholic…and a few that are. Perhapps by this time, you are ready to take a look at the truth. Gosh I hope so.
Here you go!
catholicleague.org/pius/framemain.htm
Here you go!
catholicleague.org/pius/framemain.htm
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Contarini
Guest
I have to laugh about Marty Minto being on that list though. He was just guy on the radio in Pittsburgh and a minister of a small Evangelical congregation. I lived in Pittsburgh when he got himself fired.
www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/pittsburgh/s_323955.html
“I was called into the office after my show Friday and told that I was being let go because I was alienating the listeners,” said Minto, 39, of New Castle, Lawrence County, who previously did talk-radio shows in Albany, N.Y., Phoenix and Denver. Minto also is senior pastor of the 100-member Turning Point Community Church in New Castle."
“We ended our relationship” with him because of differences in how he conducted his show, Gratner said. “WORD-FM needs to function in this city in support of the entire church – that means everybody – and not focus on denominational issues,” he said."
“The Rev. Ron Lengwin, spokesman for the Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh, said the diocese did not complain to WORD-FM regarding Minto’s show. He said station management contacted the diocese to say that Minto had been fired.”
[/quote]
Exactly. Note that the radio station was itself evangelical. In other words, these allegedly anti-Catholic evangelicals fired someone for raising the possibility that JPII might not have gone to heaven–a possibility that is still at least theoretically within bounds for orthodox Catholicism (until JPII is canonized). (Note: I don’t know exactly what Minto said about Catholic doctrine–it may well have been unfair and distorted.)
Edwin
www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/pittsburgh/s_323955.html
“I was called into the office after my show Friday and told that I was being let go because I was alienating the listeners,” said Minto, 39, of New Castle, Lawrence County, who previously did talk-radio shows in Albany, N.Y., Phoenix and Denver. Minto also is senior pastor of the 100-member Turning Point Community Church in New Castle."
“We ended our relationship” with him because of differences in how he conducted his show, Gratner said. “WORD-FM needs to function in this city in support of the entire church – that means everybody – and not focus on denominational issues,” he said."
“The Rev. Ron Lengwin, spokesman for the Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh, said the diocese did not complain to WORD-FM regarding Minto’s show. He said station management contacted the diocese to say that Minto had been fired.”
[/quote]
Exactly. Note that the radio station was itself evangelical. In other words, these allegedly anti-Catholic evangelicals fired someone for raising the possibility that JPII might not have gone to heaven–a possibility that is still at least theoretically within bounds for orthodox Catholicism (until JPII is canonized). (Note: I don’t know exactly what Minto said about Catholic doctrine–it may well have been unfair and distorted.)
Edwin
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Eden
Guest
The same station aired “Catholic Answers Live” right after “Dr. Laura”. I first heard “Catholic Answers” on WORD-FM. It is a “Christian” station.I just want to add that Catholic “representatives” were on the news saying they had no idea about his comments. It wasn’t until the station contacted the Diocese that they found out about it. They also said they believed everyone has the write to their opinion.
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Contarini
Guest
Eden said:
OK, make that “ecumenical Christian but clearly dominated by evangelicalism.” Just browsing their website makes it clear that they are predominantly evangelical. This is exactly my point. You have evangelicals happily sharing air-time with Catholic Answers. That is what I want to see more of.
Edwin
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Church_Militant
Guest
Alfie said:
True Church
Membership by Spirit baptism. Only supported by select passages of the Bible
There is no salvation outside this church. Ecclesia Nulla Salus!
Members enter by God?s will upon believing His Gospel. Really? Is this the principle established by God for the Jews? Does the NT say that entire households were baptized? Is there any record of early church fathers who were infant baptized? (Yes!)
Members are secure in Christ, can never be excommunicated. Not supported by the New Testament! See Ananias and Saphira for a start. Matthew 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
One authority?the infallible Word of God.Yet n-Cs follow their own personal fallible interpretations of the Word of God without reference to what the early church or any of the rest of the believers have said that we should believe. Believe a Thompson Chain Reference Bible’s teaching rather than an early church bishop and martyr who was discipled directly by an apostle. Riiiiight…)
One Head and One Mediator.True and then false…
Foundation is Jesus and the Apostles. Amen!
Proclaims the true Gospel. Amen!
Justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. But nowhere in the NT does it say by “faith alone”. (James 2:24, Matthew 25:31-46)
Promise of future glory with Jesus Christ. Amen!
** Roman Catholic Church**
Membership by water baptism. Yep! Just like the New Testament church
There is salvation outside this church. Only those who don’t know what the church teaches will assert this.
Members enter by man?s will or by parents? desire. Gosh, by whose desire does a man offer a sinners prayer and “accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior”? If it was forbidden to the early church maybe you’d have a point, but again…what about the prescibed way fo entering the faith community that God Himself commanded of the Jews. Did the principle change somewhere?
Members are not secure, can be excommunicated and condemned to hell. Better read the NT and see what it says. What about “whose sins you shall retain they are retained”? (John 20:23)
Three authorities?the Bible, Tradition and the infallible Magesterium. Supporting each other! Does what your church teaches coincide with what the early church wrote that they believed? Do you check your interpretation against the writings of the men who were trained by the apostles themselves…almost all of whom gave their lives as martyrs for the faith?
Two Heads, many mediators. One head, One mediator, many intercessors indeed (Hebrews 12:1)
Foundation is Peter. WRONG! Foundation is Christ! Who then chose Peter to be earthly shepherd of His church. (Matthew 16:18) “Feed my lambs, feed my sheep” (John 21:15-17)
Proclaims another gospel. Only in the eyes of those who will not see!
Justified by faith plus works. So… then if faith is all it takes to be saved what does the last verse of 1st Cor.13 mean when it plainly tells us that love is greater than faith. (See also verse 2 of that chapter!). If we are saved by fail alone plus nothing then why is love greater and deeds of love a basis for our final judgment? (Matthew 25:31-46). Worse still, why do you hold to the other POV when the Word of God says OUTRIGHT that we are not saved by “faith alone” in James 2:24? whose doctrine is plainly contrary to the Word of God now?
Promise of a purging or punishing fire for sins. Can anything unclean enter heaven? If you disagree with the Word of God on this then how can you claim that the Word of God is your sole authority in all things. (2 Sam 12:13-18 Revelation 21:27
Matthew 5:48 Hebrews 12:22-23
1 Corinthians 3:13-15 Matthew 12:32, 18:32-35
Revelation 20:12-15 James 5:20
1 Peter 4:8 Colossians 1:24) Oh SNAP!
So… you can c&p from someone else’s site huh?I TOLD you they were teaching you wrong!
Pax tecum,
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Eden
Guest
Honestly, I think the station had problems with Marty Minto before this. I think they were just looking for an excuse to can him and he gave them one. Like I said, that’s just my opinion. Think about it. If you really valued one of your radio personalities you would publicly “reprimand” them but keep them on.
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magdelaine
Guest
Church Militant:
I do too. Which is why when she gets all that bitter hogwash out of her system she will “see the light”. She just needs to get rid of those colored glasses!
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LRThunder
Guest
Alfie said:
“Membership by water baptism”…“membership by spirit baptism.”
Then do some Protestant churches use two baptisms? Presbyterian (PCA, at least), Southern Baptists and Methodists (I believe) use water for baptism.
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