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sadie2723
Guest
Still looking for an Alfie response…
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S
sadie2723
Guest
Well, here we are at 201 posts, and page number 3! Yahoo! So, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far, away…Alfie started a thread about how the BIG Bad Catholic Church somehow was in league with the Nazi Party.
Well, this is what happens when you make an unfounded statement like that and fail to support it with the first piece of documentation…the faithful here at CAF pounce all over you.
Let this be a lesson to all that would throw rocks against the gates of the Catholic Church: She has stood proud for 2000 years for a reason…she is the one true church. The gates of hell will not prevail against her. So, if you come to this forum to make blind accusations, prepare for those of us who spend out time defending her to do just that.
To all those who helped…and some of you did a lot more than I did…thank you! God bless, and Long Live the Catholic Church!
Well, this is what happens when you make an unfounded statement like that and fail to support it with the first piece of documentation…the faithful here at CAF pounce all over you.
Let this be a lesson to all that would throw rocks against the gates of the Catholic Church: She has stood proud for 2000 years for a reason…she is the one true church. The gates of hell will not prevail against her. So, if you come to this forum to make blind accusations, prepare for those of us who spend out time defending her to do just that.
To all those who helped…and some of you did a lot more than I did…thank you! God bless, and Long Live the Catholic Church!
A
Alfie
Guest
What makes you so sure that God is impressed with your intellectual capabilities? There isn’t one passage in the Bible that says intellect will get a person to heaven.Well, here we are at 201 posts, and page number 3! Yahoo! So, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far, away…Alfie started a thread about how the BIG Bad Catholic Church somehow was in league with the Nazi Party.
Well, this is what happens when you make an unfounded statement like that and fail to support it with the first piece of documentation…the faithful here at CAF pounce all over you.
Let this be a lesson to all that would throw rocks against the gates of the Catholic Church: She has stood proud for 2000 years for a reason…she is the one true church. The gates of hell will not prevail against her. So, if you come to this forum to make blind accusations, prepare for those of us who spend out time defending her to do just that.
To all those who helped…and some of you did a lot more than I did…thank you! God bless, and Long Live the Catholic Church!
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sadie2723
Guest
When have I claimed that God was impressed with me? Never. I do not do this work to impress God. I do it to show people like yourself that truth is found only one place…the Catholic Church. And, in doing so, I hope to make you see that whoever is pumping this propaganda into you is doing you more harm than good.
What I did claim was that your arguement concerning the supposed support of the Nazi party by the Catholic Church had no merit and could not be supported. And, I see that again you have attempted to change the subject on me.
A
Alfie
Guest
I said that liberal Lutherans, Conservative Catholics and Evangelicals were all equally responsible for Hilter.
Having the Catholic church as the dominant force on the continent of Europe hasn’t been very beneficial for people there anyway. It hasn’t prevented dictatorships and wars and social injustice. That is why so many Catholics came to the new world…
Countries that were founded in South America by Catholics for the most part have been dictatorships. Countries founded by Protestants are democracies. Even John Paul ll make a remark years ago that he could not understand why the United States (a Protestant country) was so sucessfull and not Catholic countries.
M
magdelaine
Guest
Are we talking religion or government? Last I looked, theocracies were a thing of Islam, not Christianity.Look, last I looked, “Catholic” did NOT equal “perfect” in the dictionary. That doesn’t make the teachings of the Church in faith and morals any less true; that does not make the Catholic Church any less THE Church that Christ himself founded.
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sadie2723
Guest
I am still a little lost on how the Catholic Church was responsible for Hitler’s rise to power, so you are going to have to help me with that one.
Now, exactly how has the Catholic church “not been very beneficial for the people of Europe”? Let’s see. The church is located there, most of Europe has been Catholic for years, literally billions of people have been assisted in their walk with Christ, millions of people converted from pagan religions to Christianity…I am not seeing how Europe is not helped out a lot by the Catholic Church.
Now I will give you that dictators have risen to power, and social injustice has existed. However, the Church has been instrumental in fighting against these dictatorships and social injustice for 2000 years. Just having a church down the street does not make you a Christian…you know this too. The bottom line is that the Catholic Church has been the dominant force in the fight for freedom and social justice on this planet for 20 centuries…and is to this day.
I would also like you to cite your source for the John Paul 2 quote. I love quotes, but I like context even better. Thus, I would like to read the entire thing.
As far as the South American countries, again, they may have gone through dictatorships, but these were not instituted by the Catholic Church, so what is your point here?
And, I fail to see that the political orientation of a country having anything what so ever to do with the Catholic Church within that country. Are you unaware of the presence of the Catholic Church in China, Indonesia, and Vietnam…where Christian Church’s are forbidden…and priests face execution and imprisonment? Here, again, we see that the Catholic Church is fighting for freedom.
Now, I have a question for you. What is it that you hope to accomplish on this forum? I was just wondering if you are really looking for truth, or are you just trying to woo Catholics into following you by pumping out the propaganda?
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Alfie
Guest
Did I not say countries that were settled by Catholics and Protestants? I was not aware that the Catholics founded China, Indonesia or Vietnam. Please stop taking my posts out of context. You, Eden and CM always fixate on one or two of my sentences.
There are more Protestants in China.
I don’t know yet why I am on this forum, but for some strange reason it keeps calling me back to it…and **“NO” ** it is not because I am thinking about becoming a Catholic. Why in the world you would think that I would be persuasive enough to “woo” Catholics away from their faith is beyond my comprehension. But like you and a number of people on this forum have insinuated “everything is beyond my comprehension”.
M
magdelaine
Guest
People say this because you will read
and say
The point of the reference to China and Vietnam was simply to say that, yes, Catholics are there and, yes, they are dying for their faith. Not what you insinuated.
:nope:
God gave you a mind. Use it.
A
Alfie
Guest
Church Militant:
I got information about the TRUE CHURCH from Mike Gendron’s website. You know the ex-Catholic who is now an Evangelical preacher. You and the others repudiated all of his statements. Why is it that he does not share your opinion? He isn’t uneducated like myself and yet he rejected Catholicism.
Marty Minto would argue with Catholics who made statements about the Catholic Church (statements that are similar to what you like to make). He would than refudiate their statements with information taken from official Vatican teachings.
Yes, I did c&p. So what! You are not going to tell me that you do not on occasion c&p. Some of your information about the assumption of Mary was c&p off of your link.So… you can c&p from someone else’s site huh?
I TOLD you they were teaching you wrong!
Pax tecum,
I got information about the TRUE CHURCH from Mike Gendron’s website. You know the ex-Catholic who is now an Evangelical preacher. You and the others repudiated all of his statements. Why is it that he does not share your opinion? He isn’t uneducated like myself and yet he rejected Catholicism.
Marty Minto would argue with Catholics who made statements about the Catholic Church (statements that are similar to what you like to make). He would than refudiate their statements with information taken from official Vatican teachings.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Because He gave them to us!Ask yourself this. When one becomes a believer, does God redeem and renew ALL of us or just selected parts?;
In simplest terms, “Does God redeem our intellects as well as our souls?”
Romans 12:2 Do not conform yourselves to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect.
And what is the greatest commandment? Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.
Having a brain from God may not get one into heaven, but I don’t think that I’d wanna be one not to use what He has given me to the best of my ability in serving him. :nope:
Matthew 25:13 Watch ye therefore, because you know not the day nor the hour. 14 For even as a man going into a far country, called his servants, and delivered to them his goods; 15 And to one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one, to every one according to his proper ability: and immediately he took his journey.
16 And he that had received the five talents, went his way, and traded with the same, and gained other five. 17 And in like manner he that had received the two, gained other two. 18 But he that had received the one, going his way digged into the earth, and hid his lord’s money. 19 But after a long time the lord of those servants came, and reckoned with them. 20 And he that had received the five talents coming, brought other five talents, saying: Lord, thou didst deliver to me five talents, behold I have gained other five over and above.
21 His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant, because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 22 And he also that had received the two talents came and said: Lord, thou deliveredst two talents to me: behold I have gained other two. 23 His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant: because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 24 But he that had received the one talent, came and said: Lord, I know that thou art a hard man; thou reapest where thou hast not sown, and gatherest where thou hast not strewed. 25 And being afraid I went and hid thy talent in the earth: behold here thou hast that which is thine.
26 And his lord answering, said to him: Wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sow not, and gather where I have not strewed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have committed my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received my own with usury. 28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it to him that hath ten talents. 29 For to every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound: but from him that hath not, that also which he seemeth to have shall be taken away. 30 And the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Pax tecum,
A
Alfie
Guest
God gave you a mind. Use it.
Oh really!!! If you had a diserning spirit you would not be a Catholic.That is one advantage I have over you.
Oh really!!! If you had a diserning spirit you would not be a Catholic.That is one advantage I have over you.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Gee…well I’m glad ya have heroes. But I’ve been to Gendron’s site and as I’ve told ya before he’s steering you dead wrong, and I just showed you that again.
As for why he left the faith… that is between him and the Almighty. I know how it feels though and I also know that at some point he’s going to discover that he’s been sorely deceived…just like I did.
As for Minto…I’ve never had the “pleasure” of hearing him, but if he’s half what I’ve heard on here, I probably could have a good time proving him messed up in front of God and everybody. Besides, it’s been my experinece that the very guys who had the most to say about the final end of John Paul the Great, also had the least accurate information concerning the Catholic faith. Again…heavy on the propaganda and rhetoric, and way lite on the facts. As you well know, I have no qualms about confronting such people.
You’re not uneducated Alfie… you told me you are in college once and I applaud that, but you have (so far) failed to test what you have been taught to see if it is true and that my dear friend is dangerous in any aspect… but especially in Christianity.
Like Bishop Sheen said,
“Few people in America hate the Catholic religion,
but there are many who hate what they mistakenly believe is the Catholic religion
—and if what they hate really were the Catholic religion,
Catholics would hate it too.”
If everything you say about our most holy faith were true, we Catholics would hate it too.
But it’s not…not even close.
Pax tecum,
C
Church_Militant
Guest
it is not because I am thinking about becoming a Catholic. Why in the world you would think that I would be persuasive enough to “woo” Catholics away from their faith is beyond my comprehension. But like you and a number of people on this forum have insinuated “everything is beyond my comprehension”.SShhhhhh…can’t you hear it?
That still small voice?
**Psalm 139:6: Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain it.
7: Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8: If I ascend to heaven, thou art there! If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there!
9: If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10: even there thy hand shall lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11: If I say, “Let only darkness cover me, and the light about me be night,”
12: even the darkness is not dark to thee, the night is bright as the day; for darkness is as light with thee.
13: For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14: I praise thee, for thou art fearful and wonderful. Wonderful are thy works! Thou knowest me right well; **
Pax tecum
A
Alfie
Guest
Church Militant:
Do you ever get tired of typing? You are wearing out my mouse!!
Ask yourself this. When one becomes a believer, does God redeem and renew ALL of us or just selected parts?;
In simplest terms, “Does God redeem our intellects as well as our souls?”
Romans 12:2 Do not conform yourselves to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect.
And what is the greatest commandment? Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.
Having a brain from God may not get one into heaven, but I don’t think that I’d wanna be one not to use what He has given me to the best of my ability in serving him. :nope:
Matthew 25:13 Watch ye therefore, because you know not the day nor the hour. 14 For even as a man going into a far country, called his servants, and delivered to them his goods; 15 And to one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one, to every one according to his proper ability: and immediately he took his journey.
16 And he that had received the five talents, went his way, and traded with the same, and gained other five. 17 And in like manner he that had received the two, gained other two. 18 But he that had received the one, going his way digged into the earth, and hid his lord’s money. 19 But after a long time the lord of those servants came, and reckoned with them. 20 And he that had received the five talents coming, brought other five talents, saying: Lord, thou didst deliver to me five talents, behold I have gained other five over and above.
21 His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant, because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 22 And he also that had received the two talents came and said: Lord, thou deliveredst two talents to me: behold I have gained other two. 23 His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant: because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 24 But he that had received the one talent, came and said: Lord, I know that thou art a hard man; thou reapest where thou hast not sown, and gatherest where thou hast not strewed. 25 And being afraid I went and hid thy talent in the earth: behold here thou hast that which is thine.
26 And his lord answering, said to him: Wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sow not, and gather where I have not strewed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have committed my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received my own with usury. 28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it to him that hath ten talents. 29 For to every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound: but from him that hath not, that also which he seemeth to have shall be taken away. 30 And the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Pax tecum,
E
exoflare
Guest
Oh really!!! Well if YOOOU had a “diserning” spirit, you would not be a Protestant. That is one advantage I have over YOU.
Both of our arguments are equally valid. Guess we’re at a stalemate, huh?
C
Contarini
Guest
Besides, the pre-Reformation Church was far more open to evangelical emphases than the post-Tridentine Church. Protestants continue lines of development from the pre-Reformation Church that were cut off or stifled after Trent.
Church Militant,
The above was said by me, not Alfie.
Read some of the fourteenth-century English writers, such as the anonymous poem “Pearl,” the long allegory “Piers Plowman” by William Langland (especially the “Harrowing of Hell” section, which I believe is Passus XVIII in the B text and Passus XX in the C text), and the “Showings” of Julian of Norwich. All of these reflect an understanding of grace that I as an evangelical resonate with. While there’s much that I admire about post-Reformation Catholicism, I don’t generally find that kind of direct language about unmerited grace–at least until recently.
And I do know something about the way Tridentine Catholicism clamped down on any language that sounded Protestant.
Catholic Augustinians like Girolamo Seripando pled in vain for a mention of faith along with baptism in the discussion of initial justification at Trent.
The “double justification” compromise reached by Cardinal Contarini at Regensburg in 1541 was rejected in part because it recognized that our works are imperfect and insufficient for final justification (even though it also insisted that works were necessary for salvation). Contarini, who had had a vivid experience of forgiveness through the free grace of God while making his Easter confession, died under a cloud because of his championing of an evangelical understanding of justification.
The Italian “spiritali” were persecuted for their evangelical leanings even though they had no desire (initially) to leave the Church.
Constantino Ponce de la Fuente, a popular preacher at Seville, died in the prisons of the Inquisition for speaking of forgiveness through the grace of Christ even though he had altered his written works in an attempt to comply with the teachings of Trent. Archbishop Bartolome de la Carranza was also imprisoned for years over similar concerns. In other words, there was a whole campaign of repression against people who had no intention of defying the Church’s teachings and were not contradicting any dogma but simply expressing themselves in ways that sounded “too Protestant.”
For Trent and its aftermath among Catholic “evangelicals,” I recommend:
Hubert Jedin, History of the Council of Trent
Dermot Fenlon, Heresy and Obedience in Tridentine Italy
Elisabeth Gleason, Gasparo Contarini: Venice, Rome, and Reform
Diarmaid MacCulloch, The Reformation: A History
and if you read French or Spanish
Constantino Ponce de la Fuente, La Confesion de un pecador, with French translation, ed. Dominque de Courcelles
I’m not saying that evangelical teaching ever died out entirely within Catholicism. And I rejoice in the fact that Catholicism is opening up today to the positive elements in evangelicalism. Fr. Cantalemessa’s wonderful sermon on justification by faith is an excellent example of this. Both sides need to get over our centuries of polemic. But there are plenty of people on both sides who just don’t want to. You’d rather stay in the trenches. I can’t for the life of me see why, except that you honestly think there is no other alternative.
This is another example–like justification by faith–where there are elements of pre-Reformation Catholicism that are continued by Protestants better than by Catholics. There are statements about the authority of Scripture in the medieval scholastics that do not sit well with post-Tridentine Catholicism. Again, I think this is reconcilable.
I consider myself an evangelical. Do you accuse me of being anti-Catholic? If you really think that the statement “some elements of pre-Reformation Catholicism are continued in Protestantism better than Catholicism” is anti-Catholic, then I don’t know how a non-Catholic can ever have a reasonable dialogue with you.
Edwin
Church Militant,
The above was said by me, not Alfie.
It’s a conclusion I’ve come to based on a number of things, but here are some of them:
Read some of the fourteenth-century English writers, such as the anonymous poem “Pearl,” the long allegory “Piers Plowman” by William Langland (especially the “Harrowing of Hell” section, which I believe is Passus XVIII in the B text and Passus XX in the C text), and the “Showings” of Julian of Norwich. All of these reflect an understanding of grace that I as an evangelical resonate with. While there’s much that I admire about post-Reformation Catholicism, I don’t generally find that kind of direct language about unmerited grace–at least until recently.
And I do know something about the way Tridentine Catholicism clamped down on any language that sounded Protestant.
Catholic Augustinians like Girolamo Seripando pled in vain for a mention of faith along with baptism in the discussion of initial justification at Trent.
The “double justification” compromise reached by Cardinal Contarini at Regensburg in 1541 was rejected in part because it recognized that our works are imperfect and insufficient for final justification (even though it also insisted that works were necessary for salvation). Contarini, who had had a vivid experience of forgiveness through the free grace of God while making his Easter confession, died under a cloud because of his championing of an evangelical understanding of justification.
The Italian “spiritali” were persecuted for their evangelical leanings even though they had no desire (initially) to leave the Church.
Constantino Ponce de la Fuente, a popular preacher at Seville, died in the prisons of the Inquisition for speaking of forgiveness through the grace of Christ even though he had altered his written works in an attempt to comply with the teachings of Trent. Archbishop Bartolome de la Carranza was also imprisoned for years over similar concerns. In other words, there was a whole campaign of repression against people who had no intention of defying the Church’s teachings and were not contradicting any dogma but simply expressing themselves in ways that sounded “too Protestant.”
For Trent and its aftermath among Catholic “evangelicals,” I recommend:
Hubert Jedin, History of the Council of Trent
Dermot Fenlon, Heresy and Obedience in Tridentine Italy
Elisabeth Gleason, Gasparo Contarini: Venice, Rome, and Reform
Diarmaid MacCulloch, The Reformation: A History
and if you read French or Spanish
Constantino Ponce de la Fuente, La Confesion de un pecador, with French translation, ed. Dominque de Courcelles
I’m not saying that evangelical teaching ever died out entirely within Catholicism. And I rejoice in the fact that Catholicism is opening up today to the positive elements in evangelicalism. Fr. Cantalemessa’s wonderful sermon on justification by faith is an excellent example of this. Both sides need to get over our centuries of polemic. But there are plenty of people on both sides who just don’t want to. You’d rather stay in the trenches. I can’t for the life of me see why, except that you honestly think there is no other alternative.
No, it isn’t. The final authority of Scripture is foundational for evangelicals. But many Catholics maintain this. You even find Catholics who maintain the “material sufficiency of Scripture,” which is a form of “sola scriptura.” What is incompatible with Catholicism is the “formal sufficiency of Scripture.” But this is a hard concept to define and I would hardly say that it is foundational for evangelical teaching as a whole.
This is another example–like justification by faith–where there are elements of pre-Reformation Catholicism that are continued by Protestants better than by Catholics. There are statements about the authority of Scripture in the medieval scholastics that do not sit well with post-Tridentine Catholicism. Again, I think this is reconcilable.
You’re saying that you’ve never met a self-proclaimed evangelical who didn’t attack Catholicism with false allegations?
I consider myself an evangelical. Do you accuse me of being anti-Catholic? If you really think that the statement “some elements of pre-Reformation Catholicism are continued in Protestantism better than Catholicism” is anti-Catholic, then I don’t know how a non-Catholic can ever have a reasonable dialogue with you.
Edwin
S
sadie2723
Guest
No, neither I or CM ever get tired of tearing down the error taught by these people who claim to be taking people to the truth.
I personally consider it my duty to defend God’s Church, and as long as these fingers will move, dearest, I will be here to fend off the wolves.Once again, I do have to ask you for a cite…you stated that there are more Protestants in China than Catholics. I am not going to dispute you there, but I would like to know where you get your information.
Now, listen to that little voice in your head…the one that is telling you, “Janet, those boys on that forum are telling you the truth! You should listen to them.”
If there is one thing that I can say for sure, it is this. I have seen people like you a thousand times. People who have become so consumed with hate that they can’t see the truth. Ask yourself something for me: If God is love, and your church or belief system is teaching you to hate…what does that say about your church’s relationship with God?
Hang in there baby…Rome waits with open arms!
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Nah! I can cut and paste all day from the Word of God in order to help you and others get it right at last!
A
Alfie
Guest
Contarini said:
Thanks.
You are the voice of reason on this forum.
Where is the best place to buy these books you write about?
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