Evangelicals and the Nicene Creed

[susanlo]

Well, they do perform Baptisms. But the meaning of “…for the forgiveness of sins” is removed. It then becomes a mere ritual that is more like a gesture or a public statement with a symbol (only) of water.

It is intentionally separated from personal reception of the forgiveness of sins.

So while I believe, in the case of an adult, that belief in Jesus’ forgiveness can and should be acknowledged before the Sacrament, the actual Sacrament is a reception of that grace completed in the individual. It is basically the condition set before the believer. To believe IS to seek Baptism. To refrain from Baptism IS to retain sins.

P.S. Personal culpability has its place here, of which only Jesus ultimately judges.

I think that forgiveness of sins is connected with baptism. I don’t know that forgiveness of sins happens only at the moment of immersion. Our church teaches that baptism is a part of the salvation process. The steps of the salvation process are belief, repentance, confession of faith, and then baptism. Receiving the Holy Spirit can occur at any time in this process.

In Acts 10, Cornelius and his family are filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues before receiving baptism. Were their sins forgiven when they believed and were filled with the Holy Spirit? Or not until later that day when they were baptized? Are we able to p(name removed by moderator)oint an exact moment?

 

[jane_doe]

Actually I’ve heard many justify it by saying essentially “baptism of the Holy Spirit is the remission of sins, water baptism is an unessary work, though permitted for public declaration of faith.”

 

[on_the_hill]

I have a friend who is E Free, and she makes it very clear that the E Frees are not non-denominational.

One time I looked up her church’s website, and their statement of beliefs is very similar, nearly identical to the Nicene Creed.

 

[rcwitness]

I think that forgiveness of sins is connected with baptism. I don’t know that forgiveness of sins happens only at the moment of immersion. Our church teaches that baptism is a part of the salvation process. The steps of the salvation process are belief, repentance, confession of faith, and then baptism. Receiving the Holy Spirit can occur at any time in this process.

Well that’s closer to the Catholic faith than the impression I’ve gotten from the E-Free community. As for that order, what about sins committed after Baptism? Are they automatically forgiven under their Baptism? We would say that all forgiveness springs from the sacrifice at Calvary, but that it’s reception is first at Baptism, then through confession/repentance (in which Catholics are bound to complete through the Sacrament of Reconciliation and receive Absolution).

In Acts 10, Cornelius and his family are filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues before receiving baptism. Were their sins forgiven when they believed and were filled with the Holy Spirit? Or not until later that day when they were baptized? Are we able to p(name removed by moderator)oint an exact moment?

I agree that sins were forgiven first outside of time, then through the Incarnation, then on account of Calvary, and then through repentance and Baptism (with infants having a distinction). Did not Peter then command them to be Baptized? I believe they were under the condition of seeking and receiving Baptism. So in this regard, I don’t disagree with how you described forgiveness as “steps”. Jesus forgave all! Accepting His forgiveness includes Baptism, and aside from no fault of their own, necessarily.

 

[rcwitness]

Susanlo, do you think that “… for the forgiveness of sins” in the Nicene Creed is Scriptural accurate?

 

[rcwitness]

I have a friend who is E Free, and she makes it very clear that the E Frees are not non-denominational.

One time I looked up her church’s website, and their statement of beliefs is very similar, nearly identical to the Nicene Creed.

I will look. Does it mention Baptism?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I thing it depends on the Evangelical. The fundamentalist may dismiss the creed or cautiously accept it’s statements (insofar as it agrees with the bible). Some Evangelicals might accept it as reflective of the historic Christian faith and so it should be listened to, but they will always clarify it must be subordinated to scripture. I think to accept the creed as a statement of faith that the Christian must adhere to would be to would elevate tradition and the authority of the historical faith to a level equal to Scripture and so Evangelicalism is hesitant to affirm the necessity of the Creed.

I think this hesitancy comes from the misunderstanding that some think one must recite the Creed in order to be saved. When we remove the creed from that soteriological context perhaps evangelicals might be more receptive to the idea of the creed being necessary as a means to defend and define orthodoxy (generally speaking).

 

[susanlo]

Well that’s closer to the Catholic faith than the impression I’ve gotten from the E-Free community. As for that order, what about sins committed after Baptism? Are they automatically forgiven under their Baptism? We would say that all forgiveness springs from the sacrifice at Calvary, but that it’s reception is first at Baptism, then through confession/repentance (in which Catholics are bound to complete through the Sacrament of Reconciliation and receive Absolution).

Forgiveness of sins occurs with prayer and repentance. I don’t know that forgiveness of later sins is necessarily related to baptism.

Susanlo, do you think that “… for the forgiveness of sins” in the Nicene Creed is Scriptural accurate?

I believe it is. I think it depends on how one reads and understands it. I don’t agree that the water of baptism itself has a power to forgive sins. Or that a ceremony with water, yet no true faith provides forgiveness of sins. A person with a repentant heart who makes a public confession of faith and decides to get baptized will be saved because of his/her faith and decision to follow God’s will. Baptism is part of the process, but not the actual means of salvation in and of itself.

 

[rcwitness]

I thing it depends on the Evangelical. The fundamentalist may dismiss the creed or cautiously accept it’s statements (insofar as it agrees with the bible). Some Evangelicals might accept it as reflective of the historic Christian faith and so it should be listened to, but they will always clarify it must be subordinated to scripture. I think to accept the creed as a statement of faith that the Christian must adhere to would be to would elevate tradition and the authority of the historical faith to a level equal to Scripture and so Evangelicalism is hesitant to affirm the necessity of the Creed.

Who is the final judge as to whether it is, or is not “subordinate to Scripture”? Apparently the whole Church, at the time, and the vast majority of the Church still, does consider it to represent the Scripture’s fundamental faith. Why would we profess a creed that is not summarizing the basic foundation of faith? Isn’t that the purpose of the Creed?

I think this hesitancy comes from the misunderstanding that some think one must recite the Creed in order to be saved. When we remove the creed from that soteriological context perhaps evangelicals might be more receptive to the idea of the creed being necessary as a means to defend and define orthodoxy (generally speaking).

Yes, but do they profess the Creed as such, including the article, “… for the forgiveness of sins.”?

 

[rcwitness]

Forgiveness of sins occurs with prayer and repentance. I don’t know that forgiveness of later sins is necessarily related to baptism.

Thanks.

I believe it is.

I think it depends on how one reads and understands it. I don’t agree that the water of baptism itself has a power to forgive sins.

Is the water of Baptism by itself? Consider how God was with the first creation in the beginning:
Genesis 1
In the beginning God created*the heavens and the earth.*The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.

Or that a ceremony with water, yet no true faith provides forgiveness of sins

Not sure what you are saying? Was there a mistype here?

A person with a repentant heart who makes a public confession of faith and decides to get baptized will be saved because of his/her faith and decision to follow God’s will. Baptism is part of the process, but not the actual means of salvation in and of itself.

If Baptism is a part of the process of salvation, wouldn’t it be a means of salvation in itself? The Church does not Teach a Sacrament Alone doctrine you seem to be building, in order to reject.

 

[Billy_Buescher]

What do Evangelicals believe, in regard to the Nicene Creed? In several discussions, recently, I have used this Creed to represent what Christians must accept, but do Evangelical (non-denominational) believers accept it all?

Hi,

I am guessing that you believe in the creed, so I also beleive in the creed, but trying to explain this statement in the Creed=

the third day He rose** again** from the dead

Does anyone know when the other time Christ rose from the dead was?

 

[Peebo]

As a former Pentecostal I never heard the Apostles creed or the Nicene creed mentioned…I can’t think of many Protestant churches that would confess to believing in One Holy…Catholic and Apostolic church…or in the Communion of Saints…maybe some of them recite those creeds…but I’ll bet they don’t believe in them as Catholics would believe

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Who is the final judge as to whether it is, or is not “subordinate to Scripture”? Apparently the whole Church, at the time, and the vast majority of the Church still, does consider it to represent the Scripture’s fundamental faith. Why would we profess a creed that is not summarizing the basic foundation of faith? Isn’t that the purpose of the Creed?

Yes, but do they profess the Creed as such, including the article, “… for the forgiveness of sins.”?

Not disagreeing with you. Evangelical hesitancy to embrace tradition and the creed is something I consider a weakness. It only forces them to come up with their own creeds or be creedless and hence vague, both separate themselves from historical continuity of the Church throughout the centuries.

With regard to the article about baptism I suspect they would have to reinterpret it away from water baptism to spiritual baptism. Though any Evangelical is free to correct me if there is another alternative.

 

[Peter_J]

You have raised a RED FLAG for most Protestants with your statement “represent what Christians must accept”. While my church prays both the Nicene and Apostles creeds they are never and should never be used as “tests” of faith for membership or admission to Holy Communion; they are statements of historic Christian belief and nothing more. I would suspect that you will never hear any form of creed used in an evangelical church. Most Protestants require only a simple statement of belief such as “Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ, Son of the living God and do you accept him as Savior and Lord of your life”.

Well don’t forget that creeds are bad.

 

[Techno2000]

Hi,

I am guessing that you believe in the creed, so I also beleive in the creed, but trying to explain this statement in the Creed=

the third day He rose** again** from the dead

Does anyone know when the other time Christ rose from the dead was?

King James Bible
And that he was buried, and that he rose** again** the third day according to the scriptures:

Douay-Rheims Bible
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures:

New International Version
that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

American Standard Version
and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures,

Just different english translations I suppose.

 

[rcwitness]

King James Bible
And that he was buried, and that he rose** again** the third day according to the scriptures:

Douay-Rheims Bible
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures:

New International Version
that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

American Standard Version
and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures,

Just different english translations I suppose.

It’s probably not the “technical” translation of 1 Corinthians 15:4, but the concept isn’t that he “rose from the dead again” but that he “rose to life, again”.

Thanks for pointing that out, in the different translations.

 

[rcwitness]

The EFCA has its Creedal profession of faith on its website (thank you on_the_hill). go.efca.org/resources/document/efca-statement-faith

Most everything is an excellent statement.

Here is the section acknowledging Baptism:
We believe that the true church comprises all who have been justified by God’s grace through faith alone in Christ alone. They are united by the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ, of which He is the Head. The true church is manifest in local churches, whose membership should be composed only of believers. The Lord Jesus mandated two ordinances, baptism and the Lord’s Supper, which visibly and tangibly express the gospel. Though they are not the means of salvation, when celebrated by the church in genuine faith, these ordinances confirm and nourish the believer.Now, I believe that the Catholic Church does NOT claim Baptism as “the means of Salvation”. But it is the common means of personally receiving forgiveness of sins. This is an initiation into the Covenant and a Saving grace of Jesus. It is part of necessary belief and obedience to Him, who merited our salvation.

If, as some say, it is only a sign of what has already been completed, why does Peter refer to Baptism as an appeal for a clear conscience? It must not be proper to presume a clear conscience until we receive Baptismal grace!

But the way this Creed expresses the Sacrament, with phrases like “tangibly expresses the gospel” and “nourishes” the believer, it seems to affirm that there is grace given through Baptism. Yet it is careful not to acknowledge what Nicene states; “… for the remission of sins”.

 

[7_Sorrows]

As a former Pentecostal I never heard the Apostles creed or the Nicene creed mentioned…I can’t think of many Protestant churches that would confess to believing in One Holy…Catholic and Apostolic church…or in the Communion of Saints…maybe some of them recite those creeds…but I’ll bet they don’t believe in them as Catholics would believe

I was raised Episcopal/Anglican so we recited both the Apostle’s and Nicene Creed and our worship service very similar to the Catholic Mass. I was always confused when we said I believe in one holy catholic (small “c”) and apostolic church. I wondered why we weren’t Catholic if we believe that.

 

[Peter_J]

I was always confused when we said I believe in one holy catholic (small “c”) and apostolic church. I wondered why we weren’t Catholic if we believe that.

Indeed.

We should also recall that lower-case letters didn’t exist when the creed was written.

 

[Wannano]

indeed.

We should also recall that lower-case letters didn’t exist when the creed was written.

that is something i did not know. When did they invent lower case?