Evangelicals and veneration

[FabiusMaximus]

Hey, I just have a question for the Evangelicals out there, more specifically I suppose the American ones.

I come from a strict Pentecostal denomination in Italy, the Assemblee di Dio in Italia (Assemblies of God in Italy, ADI), and there, the slightest “Catholic-looking” activity was immediately condemned. So for instance, crossing oneself is suspicious (I was scolded by my parents for doing it in kindergarten for lunch, and when I didn’t do it the next day as my parents asked, my teacher smacked me right across the face). If you wear a cross necklace, it must be the regular empty cross, and not a crucifix. And if you kiss it, it’s idolatry (context: I one time kissed a cross necklace for a race when I was younger and my parents were furious). Memorized prayers are discouraged.

But I in the churches I’ve attended in America (mostly non-denominational), it seems to me there was a more lax attitude. There’s a couple of regulars at my old church that, upon receiving Holy Communion, would cross themselves. I was shocked, because it’d seem like something odd to do (I didn’t mind that they did it, it was simply surprising). I’ve seen people where crucifixes without being Roman Catholic (or Orthodox. I haven’t forgotten you guys, I’m just relating it to my experience).

I’m assuming the stricter reaction in my home city (and among my parents) is primarily due to the fact that Italy is such a predominately Catholic nation (at least nominally) and that anything that might seem associated with Catholicism was suspect. On a really extreme level, the ADI refused to acknowledge Christmas.

I tend to like crossing myself when no one is looking and sometimes using memorized prayers like Our Father, but I was wondering if anyone else faced a similar experience.

Additionally, this is a side question, but: often times our public institutions encourage activities which would seem like veneration - eg, celebrating our Founding Fathers, the immense respect and rituals with the flag, the pledge of allegience, wreaths at funerals - would this constitute idolatry in the same vein that some accuse those who venerate icons and/or statues?

 

[Publisher]

I don’t know if you could consider myself an “evangelical” the way you mean it…I am a Quaker evangelical…not and Evangelical Friend…I have a Bible that I purchased for myself some 25 odd years ago…OXFORD Study Bible with Apoc/Deut. Books use by the Catholic and Orthodox churches…the Orthodox have several more books in their Bibles which the Catholics removed )) from their canon. I purchased it after I had Returned from the Darkness I had found myself when my child and wife died…it’s a nice black leather edition…I have it sitting beside my sofa table on a shelf…on this shelf I also have a prayer rope I have used…I only use this Bible for reading as devotions…I have other Bibles for study…the Bible is for “centering down” and “entering into meeting”.

I always make sure it is well oiled so the leather cover won’t crack…I keep my birth certificate in it…as well as the death certificates of loved ones…it is my treasure…it is close to venertion to an object I can think of I possess.

 

[ltwin]

Is the Italian Assemblies of God pretty representative of other other Pentecostal churches in Italy?

Your observations concerning evangelicals in America is pretty right on as far as my experience goes. Most American Pentecostals wouldn’t see anything wrong with wearing a crucifix around their neck. Veneration is another thing altogether however. I haven’t really seen any Pentecostal cross themselves. If someone did it in my church it would probably be seen as strange but a child wouldn’t be scolded by his parents for doing it.

I think this may have something to do with Italy being a majority Catholic country. In America, the first Pentecostals so themselves as coming out of the mainline spiritually bankrupt churches. They saw themselves as reaffirming holiness standards. So men and women wore unfashionable clothes. Women couldn’t wear pants and couldn’t cut their hair short. It was about establishing themselves as a people set apart from those around them. It was about maintaining their idea as a peculiar people dedicated to God.

Now that kind of attitude can quickly degenerate into legalism and works righteousness. I’m glad most American Pentecostals have gotten away from judging people on the basis of the length of their hair or whether they visit movie theaters.

Perhaps that is what is going on with your family’s church in Italy. Surrounded by a society where most people are Catholic, they saw Catholicism as associated with the world that they were called to be separate from.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Is the Italian Assemblies of God pretty representative of other other Pentecostal churches in Italy?

The ADI are the largest Evangelical denomination in the country, and by far the largest Pentecostal group, though there are others. They’ve been around for a long time, and, as you can guess from the name, received official approval from the American Assemblies of God. They are also affiliated with various Italian-speaking churches in North America and Australia. I would say though, from my experience, is that their attitude to Catholicism is pretty indicative of Italian Evangelical attitudes as a whole. However, they are far stricter than any group here. And they, much more than others, have had an aggressive stance concerning major “Catholic” holidays.

Your observations concerning evangelicals in America is pretty right on as far as my experience goes. Most American Pentecostals wouldn’t see anything wrong with wearing a crucifix around their neck. Veneration is another thing altogether however. I haven’t really seen any Pentecostal cross themselves. If someone did it in my church it would probably be seen as strange but a child wouldn’t be scolded by his parents for doing it.

I think this may have something to do with Italy being a majority Catholic country. In America, the first Pentecostals so themselves as coming out of the mainline spiritually bankrupt churches. They saw themselves as reaffirming holiness standards. So men and women wore unfashionable clothes. Women couldn’t wear pants and couldn’t cut their hair short. It was about establishing themselves as a people set apart from those around them. It was about maintaining their idea as a peculiar people dedicated to God.

I would say this is true. America hasn’t ever been a majority Roman Catholic country, much less the seat of the Pope himself! Perhaps the Italian churches are simply going through the evolution you’ve described. In most ADI churches, women do not wear pants, and wear veils, and in certain circumstances may be segregated from men. This is of course very extreme and more or less rare now, but I think it’s worth mentioning. I do appreciate though their committment to the Bible and to ordinances. Last time I was visiting my great-aunt there (who is Evangelical, but not Pentecostal), at her church, one of the ushers was determined to make sure that any visitor (including myself), was properly baptized before being allowed to receive Communion. I know this is what officially should be done, but I’ve seen that routinely ignored.

Now that kind of attitude can quickly degenerate into legalism and works righteousness. I’m glad most American Pentecostals have gotten away from judging people on the basis of the length of their hair or whether they visit movie theaters.

Perhaps that is what is going on with your family’s church in Italy. Surrounded by a society where most people are Catholic, they saw Catholicism as associated with the world that they were called to be separate from.

Indeed that is probably it. My parents had a rather difficult experience when they both left the Catholic Church, I’m assuming others did, too. I can tell you that a lot of the holiness standards are still very much in effect over there. Thankfully my parents, since we immigrated to the United States, have adopted a less rigid attitude, though still much more conservative than we’ve seen in a lot of American churches.

But to see the hostily between the Catholic Church and the Evangelical churches (and Protestantism in general, really) is really quite disheartening. Not too long ago, the European Court of Human Rights declared that the Itailan government must take down crucifixes present in all Italian public school classrooms in order to conform to European secular norms. While many were outraged at this decision, the official statements released by Protestant churches in Italy was that of jubilation. It hurt me deeply to read that. The case was eventually overturned in Italy’s favor, but the strife between fellow Christians greatly saddens me. Especially when Christiainty in general is under attack, but many are too blind to see outside their particular context.

 

[KathleenGee]

I was very upset to hear that a woman from Finland wanted the crucifixes down.

Catholicism is the heritage of Italy and likewise, she is also our heritage. I did not know the Protestants were rejoicing as well. As a cradle Catholic growing up, there were two things that made me see Protestants in a certain light, and first it was their oppositional attitude, and the other was the disregard for the sacred unity of the family, their charism essentially ‘divorce’. I don’t see the fruit of Christ in a divorcing spirit, irregardless of all the good intentions.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I was very upset to hear that a woman from Finland wanted the crucifixes down.

Catholicism is the heritage of Italy and likewise, she is also our heritage. I did not know the Protestants were rejoicing as well. As a cradle Catholic growing up, there were two things that made me see Protestants in a certain light, and first it was their oppositional attitude, and the other was the disregard for the sacred unity of the family, their charism essentially ‘divorce’. I don’t see the fruit of Christ in a divorcing spirit, irregardless of all the good intentions.

Unfortunately the official response from the Protestant denominations in Italy was fairly positive. They don’t understand that in defending “secularism” they are simply inviting themselves to be the next victims. I was very disappointed to read that reaction. Our differences are not significant enough for us to fight one another. I’m not a Roman Catholic, but separating Italy and Catholicism is impossible. You can’t just throw two thousand years of heritage out the window.

There was only one small inscription on the school crucifixes: "La verità vi renderà liberi" - the truth shall set you free.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I don’t know if you could consider myself an “evangelical” the way you mean it…I am a Quaker evangelical…not and Evangelical Friend…I have a Bible that I purchased for myself some 25 odd years ago…OXFORD Study Bible with Apoc/Deut. Books use by the Catholic and Orthodox churches…the Orthodox have several more books in their Bibles which the Catholics removed )) from their canon. I purchased it after I had Returned from the Darkness I had found myself when my child and wife died…it’s a nice black leather edition…I have it sitting beside my sofa table on a shelf…on this shelf I also have a prayer rope I have used…I only use this Bible for reading as devotions…I have other Bibles for study…the Bible is for “centering down” and “entering into meeting”.

I always make sure it is well oiled so the leather cover won’t crack…I keep my birth certificate in it…as well as the death certificates of loved ones…it is my treasure…it is close to venertion to an object I can think of I possess.

Correction, Mr. Publisher:

The Catholic Church has never added to nor subtracted from nor removed anything from any Bible.

The Orthodox have added to the canon. Protestants subtracted from it.

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[Publisher]

Correction, Mr. Publisher:

The Catholic Church has never added to nor subtracted from nor removed anything from any Bible.

The Orthodox have added to the canon. Protestants subtracted from it.

Peace, Jim Dandy

No correction needed friend…I understand the positions you hold…that’s why I put a “” in my post…

 

[wmscott]

Hey, I just have a question for the Evangelicals out there, more specifically I suppose the American ones.

I come from a strict Pentecostal denomination in Italy, the Assemblee di Dio in Italia (Assemblies of God in Italy, ADI), and there, the slightest “Catholic-looking” activity was immediately condemned. So for instance, crossing oneself is suspicious (I was scolded by my parents for doing it in kindergarten for lunch, and when I didn’t do it the next day as my parents asked, my teacher smacked me right across the face). If you wear a cross necklace, it must be the regular empty cross, and not a crucifix. And if you kiss it, it’s idolatry (context: I one time kissed a cross necklace for a race when I was younger and my parents were furious). Memorized prayers are discouraged.

But I in the churches I’ve attended in America (mostly non-denominational), it seems to me there was a more lax attitude. There’s a couple of regulars at my old church that, upon receiving Holy Communion, would cross themselves. I was shocked, because it’d seem like something odd to do (I didn’t mind that they did it, it was simply surprising). I’ve seen people where crucifixes without being Roman Catholic (or Orthodox. I haven’t forgotten you guys, I’m just relating it to my experience).

I’m assuming the stricter reaction in my home city (and among my parents) is primarily due to the fact that Italy is such a predominately Catholic nation (at least nominally) and that anything that might seem associated with Catholicism was suspect. On a really extreme level, the ADI refused to acknowledge Christmas.

I tend to like crossing myself when no one is looking and sometimes using memorized prayers like Our Father, but I was wondering if anyone else faced a similar experience.

Additionally, this is a side question, but: often times our public institutions encourage activities which would seem like veneration - eg, celebrating our Founding Fathers, the immense respect and rituals with the flag, the pledge of allegience, wreaths at funerals - would this constitute idolatry in the same vein that some accuse those who venerate icons and/or statues?

Just asking, but what about the Our Father? that is a memorized prayer is it not.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Just asking, but what about the Our Father? that is a memorized prayer is it not.

I’ve never heard the “Our Father” ever being prayed until two years ago, when my friend invited me to her Lutheran church for a Christmas service. I’ve never heard the “Our Father” prayed, either in an Italian church, or in an American Evangelical church. I don’t know if maybe it’s just the ones I’ve attended?

 

[Eutychus123]

Correction, Mr. Publisher:

The Catholic Church has never added to nor subtracted from nor removed anything from any Bible.

The Orthodox have added to the canon. Protestants subtracted from it.

Peace, Jim Dandy

Hey Jim,

The EO has one more Psalm that we do.

Eut.

 

[TrueLight]

My experience growing up in Baptist, Pentecostal and charismatic, non-denonimational churches in New York City

Cross necklaces: frowned upon (believer may be taken for a Catholic)
Crucifix necklace - Absolutely not
Cross in Church - Okay, but a small one
Crucifix in Church - Absolutely not

Sign of the Cross - No Way! Catholics do that
Kissing things - idolatry
Statues - Idolatry

It may be that the folks you see crossing themselves are former Catholics or from Liturgical Protestant churches.

 

[Eutychus123]

My experience growing up in Baptist, Pentecostal and charismatic, non-denonimational churches in New York City

Cross necklaces: frowned upon (believer may be taken for a Catholic)
Crucifix necklace - Absolutely not
Cross in Church - Okay, but a small one
Crucifix in Church - Absolutely not

Sign of the Cross - No Way! Catholics do that
Kissing things - idolatry
Statues - Idolatry

It may be that the folks you see crossing themselves are former Catholics or from Liturgical Protestant churches.

Good summation! Agrees with my Baptist upbringing 1960’s Did manage to have a larger imitation wood cross on the back wall, and a tabletop gold cross on the communion table.

 

[wmscott]

I’ve never heard the “Our Father” ever being prayed until two years ago, when my friend invited me to her Lutheran church for a Christmas service. I’ve never heard the “Our Father” prayed, either in an Italian church, or in an American Evangelical church. I don’t know if maybe it’s just the ones I’ve attended?

I am not judging, just inquiring. This is one of the prayers that Christ himself taught us and wanted us to use, how could this be absent in a Christian church? It is certainly scriptural which I assumed most Protestants would not have an issue with. But for it to be absent altogether is a little different to me. Why do you think it was absent in your faith community?

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I am not judging, just inquiring. This is one of the prayers that Christ himself taught us and wanted us to use, how could this be absent in a Christian church? It is certainly scriptural which I assumed most Protestants would not have an issue with. But for it to be absent altogether is a little different to me. Why do you think it was absent in your faith community?

Memorized prayers are frowned upon because it allegedly takes away from a real spiritual communion you could have with God. A personal, extemporaneous prayer is what is recommended. Though I like using the Our Father because it helps me focus.

 

[wmscott]

Memorized prayers are frowned upon because it allegedly takes away from a real spiritual communion you could have with God. A personal, extemporaneous prayer is what is recommended. Though I like using the Our Father because it helps me focus.

Even though Christ told us to pray this way?

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Even though Christ told us to pray this way?

I think it’s often taken as a suggestive prayer, a model, not an actual prayer to read. Again I’ve never heard it ever being read. But it could be just me. Perhaps I don’t pay enough attention in church.

 

[wmscott]

I think it’s often taken as a suggestive prayer, a model, not an actual prayer to read. Again I’ve never heard it ever being read. But it could be just me. Perhaps I don’t pay enough attention in church.

Thanks, I was just curious.

 

[ltwin]

Just asking, but what about the Our Father? that is a memorized prayer is it not.

From an American perspective, it would not be seen as wrong to pray the Our Father. I was taught it in Sunday school along with the 23 Psalm. It’s just that Pentecostals don’t use prepared or memorized prayers during services.

 

[ltwin]

And they, much more than others, have had an aggressive stance concerning major “Catholic” holidays.

Just to be clear, are you saying Italian evagelicals don’t celebrate Christmas? That seems a little extreme.

In most ADI churches, women do not wear pants, and wear veils, and in certain circumstances may be segregated from men. This is of course very extreme and more or less rare now, but I think it’s worth mentioning.

Veils? It amazes me how different Pentecostals can be from one country to another. I have a hard time believing any Pentecostal woman would put up with wearing a veil or segregated seating. But I trust women are still allowed to prophesy and preach aren’t they?

I do appreciate though their committment to the Bible and to ordinances. Last time I was visiting my great-aunt there (who is Evangelical, but not Pentecostal), at her church, one of the ushers was determined to make sure that any visitor (including myself), was properly baptized before being allowed to receive Communion. I know this is what officially should be done, but I’ve seen that routinely ignored.

Wow. I wasn’t baptized until I was a couple years ago when I was 19. My parents started letting me take communion in my early teens. I’m not sure if that’s typical in all American Pentecostal churches though. But in my experience, all that is said is you better know that you’re worthy to receive it and then they let you decide (or your parent if you’re a child). A woman in my church said once that her husband (who wasn’t living for Christ at the time) took communion and got so sick he had to leave the church.

Indeed that is probably it. My parents had a rather difficult experience when they both left the Catholic Church, I’m assuming others did, too. I can tell you that a lot of the holiness standards are still very much in effect over there. Thankfully my parents, since we immigrated to the United States, have adopted a less rigid attitude, though still much more conservative than we’ve seen in a lot of American churches.

I can’t stand ultra conservative legalistic Pentecostals. My uncle pastored one of those old holiness churches and my mom hated visiting there. She wears pants and cuts her hair short and wears make up. The fact that she has been saved and in church for most of her life doesn’t mean a thing to those frumpy old ladies though. If you aint wearing a bun and dressing like you escaped from the 19th century then you “ain’t got nothin” or worse “you’ve got a Jezebel spirit”.

But to see the hostily between the Catholic Church and the Evangelical churches (and Protestantism in general, really) is really quite disheartening. Not too long ago, the European Court of Human Rights declared that the Itailan government must take down crucifixes present in all Italian public school classrooms in order to conform to European secular norms. While many were outraged at this decision, the official statements released by Protestant churches in Italy was that of jubilation. It hurt me deeply to read that. The case was eventually overturned in Italy’s favor, but the strife between fellow Christians greatly saddens me. Especially when Christiainty in general is under attack, but many are too blind to see outside their particular context.

That is sad. In this age of secularism and growing atheism, Christians need each other much more than we need to fight one another.

One more question. Was the Italian AG ever officially pacifistic? I know the American AG was until Vietnam, and now its aligned itself with the religious right, which I think is regrettable. Since it sounds like Italy is much more conservative than over in the states I was just wondering if non-violence is still taught as Biblical doctrine?